Reasonable ideas about pyro.

[SajPl]

First of all I want to start by saing that I have been a pyro (well assault specialist to be precise) for a very long time, I have tried the spec 1 month after the game was released and never looked back ... I'm not one of those fotm rerollers that are terrible anyway ...

this thread is to discuss, propose reasonable ideas that might tone down pyro while not destroing the class, I would also like to state that if pyro gets nerfed and snipers (2.5k snipe+5k ambush+5k followthrough add to that a 3k explosive probe and a 5k takedown and you get the idea or wounding shots , sorry idk sniper mirror ability name, that melts people in seconds all while having the best range, a short cooldown root, a rooting knockback, 30m mezz and you get the idea) and marauders (force choke while dots take 6-8k damage off off you because end game you can use berserk every 15-20 seconds, followed by an 8k ravage while having the best defensive cooldowns in the game) are not then the Devs need to start thinking properly.

 

Pyro changes that I would see as reasonable but not breaking the class, please note that they should not all be implemented :

-Prevent powertechs/vanguards from wearing the commando/mercenary set giving a 15% crit chance to railshot/hib - that is where the insane burst comes from - commandos deserve it because of lower armor penetration, vanguards are over the top because of it.

-the 2 talent points in Assault trooper give 30% bonus crit damage to Assault plastique, HiB, incindiery round and plasma cell either reduce the emount of abilities to only HiB and Plastique or make it 7.5 and 15% not 30

- redece a bit the huge bonuses to tech crit chance the Assault tree gets (6% in total is a lot)

 

Finally remove the snare from flame burst and ion pulse and give us a slow ability because it's crippling for the tank tree as well, both other tanking AC's have a slow and an AOE slow, vanguards dont and as a tank they need some control, and the 2 second slow from rocket punch/stockstrike is a joke, give us a real slow or an aoe one for example neural surge or flame sweep slows the target by 50-30% for X seconds.

 

Like I stated these are suggestions coming from an experienced pyro (i wont dare say good but 500-600k damage is no big news for me, do it pretty much every day ... ).

 

 

Also "battle focus" should work diferrently depending on cell active so for ion cell it could be a 20-40% damage reduction for the duration, for tactics it could be a complete cc immunity and a 100% speed buff for the duration and for Assault it could remain as it is.

Edited July 4, 2012 by SajPl

[Sillensumbra]

Im not an expert but in my opinion i think the burst itself it´s not a problem, the OP lies in the sustained dps they are capable of, i would nerf about 10% of the damadge from ion pulse, that would sufice to lower a bit of the sustained.

[physiology]

I can see these changes working, I usually play tactics and thought about trying out assault today. have the combat tech set and not the elim, and I noticed my damage (although still impressive) to not be as over the top. Don't think I have had a HiB hit over 4k yet

[Alizio]

I can see these changes working, I usually play tactics and thought about trying out assault today. have the combat tech set and not the elim, and I noticed my damage (although still impressive) to not be as over the top. Don't think I have had a HiB hit over 4k yet

 

well u double failed with tactics and combat tech, u gonna be too late to actually enjoy being useful in pvp.

 

 

 

as much dps as VGs do, i still see more fools in combat tech than eliminator on fatman, what a joke. Also so many dont even use taunts, so many are so bad.

 

 

i know, i know like a typical horrid vg in the wrong gear u will say u are still useful as tactics and combat tech is more survivability or some other nonsense but the fact is any rated team worth a grain of salt would not let a vg dps come in unless he was assault with eliminator gear and no, there is no chance u will outdps good vgs spec'd and geared like that.

Edited July 4, 2012 by Alizio

[KBSIP]

tanking AC talents a slow onto the Ion Gas Cylinder DoT that is also talented, it functions practically the same as the DoT from pyros, except it deals far less damage and can't be guaranteed off flameburst, only rocket punch (which can be procced).

 

just an FYI there.

 

as far as nerfs to HiB/ RS, you have to keep in mind any flat reductions to its damage will have a disproportionate impact on the overall damage the class does period. HiB/RS contributes ~ 60% of all PVP damage for a pyro/assault spec. thus any nerfs to it would disproportionately affect both PVP and PVE.

 

I see a lot of complaints about the sustained potential of pyros (it is potential, you are not guaranteed your best or even great damage as a pyro, 60% damage from railshot is 60% damage that relies on a non guaranteed proc). The sustained DPS of a pyro/assault DPS is the only thing the class has for end game T-2 operations. no group buff, no speed boost, and grapple is useless on operations bosses. the taunt is nice but since true mitigation is tied primarily to the tanking stance the ability to taunt is not joined with the ability to survive enemy focus. I exist solely in an operation to be a hard counter to enrage timer issues, and that's the only reason I'm there. I don't have the extra mobility to survive a GOTM without a marauder, and I don't have a heavy group buff. honestly the only class I can think of that would be less appealing for a team is DPS operatives, and even they function well with good players though if you handed the player a similarly leveled/geared assassin they would perform even better.

[physiology]

well u double failed with tactics and combat tech, u gonna be too late to actually enjoy being useful in pvp.

 

 

 

as much dps as VGs do, i still see more fools in combat tech than eliminator on fatman, what a joke. Also so many dont even use taunts, so many are so bad.

 

 

i know, i know like a typical horrid vg in the wrong gear u will say u are still useful as tactics and combat tech is more survivability or some other nonsense but the fact is any rated team worth a grain of salt would not let a vg dps come in unless he was assault with eliminator gear and no, there is no chance u will outdps good vgs spec'd and geared like that.

 

I like when people who don't actually understand the specs comment it's cute, now run along and educate yourself about how the specs work, then come back and contribute

[KBSIP]

I can see these changes working, I usually play tactics and thought about trying out assault today. have the combat tech set and not the elim, and I noticed my damage (although still impressive) to not be as over the top. Don't think I have had a HiB hit over 4k yet

 

the 5k hits from railshot occur primarily when either the PVP buff is present, or when there is a severe gear disparity between the two parties (I.E. war hero/BM auged hitting a recruit or part recruit/part BM).

[Alizio]

I like when people who don't actually understand the specs comment it's cute, now run along and educate yourself about how the specs work, then come back and contribute

 

i know exactly how they work, im a vg aswell. i also know u have 0 chance of out dpsing an assault vg with eliminator gear.

 

 

u basically just a waste of space in any serious grp. BW should fix this and make tactics viable, make combat tech gear viable for VGs but i guess ppl like you that dont get it, wear the wrong gear and are spec'd for much less dps dont complain, why should i??

 

 

if u dont believe me, hit me up on fatman, my VGs name is Berimbolo, ill be happy to smash u 1v1 or smash ur dps or whatever u want to prove that basically ur spec and gear is dumb to wear at this point for any vg.

 

 

 

As for what TS is suggesting, im not totally sold vgs are that OP'd, i mean look at guys like this LOL they dont even get their own class or how to maximize it. Most dont.

Edited July 4, 2012 by Alizio

[KBSIP]

I like when people who don't actually understand the specs comment it's cute, now run along and educate yourself about how the specs work, then come back and contribute

 

I've tested the specs myself, tactics and assault are both fine for sustained, assault spikes higher but is offset by the fact that their heat venting isn't guaranteed. resource management on a tactics is one of the easiest I've done on a class including my sniper and guardian, though I did miss the heavy burst outside of full prototype flamethrower/mirror.

[Mularky]

Can we address the 90% armor pen to high impact bolt/rail shot? Edited July 4, 2012 by Mularky

[physiology]

i know exactly how they work, im a vg aswell. i also know u have 0 chance of out dpsing an assault vg with eliminator gear.

 

 

u basically just a waste of space in any serious grp. BW should fix this and make tactics viable, make combat tech gear viable for VGs but i guess ppl like you that dont get it, wear the wrong gear and are spec'd for much less dps dont complain, why should i??

 

 

if u dont believe me, hit me up on fatman, my VGs name is Berimbolo, ill be happy to smash u 1v1 or smash ur dps or whatever u want to prove that basically ur spec and gear is dumb to wear at this point for any vg.

 

 

 

As for what TS is suggesting, im not totally sold vgs are that OP'd, i mean look at guys like this LOL they dont even get their own class or how to maximize it. Most dont.

 

You edit your posts so fast it's kind of hilarious, I would be happy to 1v1 you but sadly my fatman char is level 32, and got abandoned when they saved pot5. You don't actually ever point out how the spec is bad though, just type "LOL ITS BAD I DO LEET DPS" over and over, we get it you are a pyro and so cool because of it. now like i said, run along, come back with some actual points, then I'll take you seriously

[Winkywinky]

First of all I want to start by saing that I have been a pyro (well assault specialist to be precise) for a very long time, I have tried the spec 1 month after the game was released and never looked back ... I'm not one of those fotm rerollers that are terrible anyway ...

this thread is to discuss, propose reasonable ideas that might tone down pyro while not destroing the class, I would also like to state that if pyro gets nerfed and snipers (2.5k snipe+5k ambush+5k followthrough add to that a 3k explosive probe and a 5k takedown and you get the idea or wounding shots , sorry idk sniper mirror ability name, that melts people in seconds all while having the best range, a short cooldown root, a rooting knockback, 30m mezz and you get the idea) and marauders (force choke while dots take 6-8k damage off off you because end game you can use berserk every 15-20 seconds, followed by an 8k ravage while having the best defensive cooldowns in the game) are not then the Devs need to start thinking properly.

 

Pyro changes that I would see as reasonable but not breaking the class, please note that they should not all be implemented :

-Prevent powertechs/vanguards from wearing the commando/mercenary set giving a 15% crit chance to railshot/hib - that is where the insane burst comes from - commandos deserve it because of lower armor penetration, vanguards are over the top because of it.

-the 2 talent points in Assault trooper give 30% bonus crit damage to Assault plastique, HiB, incindiery round and plasma cell either reduce the emount of abilities to only HiB and Plastique or make it 7.5 and 15% not 30

- redece a bit the huge bonuses to tech crit chance the Assault tree gets (6% in total is a lot)

 

Finally remove the snare from flame burst and ion pulse and give us a slow ability because it's crippling for the tank tree as well, both other tanking AC's have a slow and an AOE slow, vanguards dont and as a tank they need some control, and the 2 second slow from rocket punch/stockstrike is a joke, give us a real slow or an aoe one for example neural surge or flame sweep slows the target by 50-30% for X seconds.

 

Like I stated these are suggestions coming from an experienced pyro (i wont dare say good but 500-600k damage is no big news for me, do it pretty much every day ... ).

 

 

Also "battle focus" should work diferrently depending on cell active so for ion cell it could be a 20-40% damage reduction for the duration, for tactics it could be a complete cc immunity and a 100% speed buff for the duration and for Assault it could remain as it is.

 

congrats on destroying the class....

[Alizio]

You edit your posts so fast it's kind of hilarious, I would be happy to 1v1 you but sadly my fatman char is level 32, and got abandoned when they saved pot5. You don't actually ever point out how the spec is bad though, just type "LOL ITS BAD I DO LEET DPS" over and over, we get it you are a pyro and so cool because of it. now like i said, run along, come back with some actual points, then I'll take you seriously

 

doesnt take a brain surgeon to see one spec is doing massive game topping DPS and the other is average at best.

 

 

 

what is making u more wanted in a grp?? your "tools" which you still have way less of than other classes??

 

 

 

fact is the only thing that makes VG viable at this point is the burst and high powered DPS but you took that out for your toon, so what is it that makes you so valuble to your grp??

 

 

u are the one that literally made 0 points except "go learn about the game"..... yea...... i wanna learn from a guy who picks a weaker spec and gear.... plz teach me the elite ways of tactics/combat tech.

 

 

but as i said, IDGAF if u wanna be useless for rateds etc, thats your choice. Aslong as you are having fun, who cares.

 

 

btw,i never edited anything out, i just added more. QQ some more but dont QQ about playing a much weaker spec and topping it off by wearing the wrong gear lol WP sir, WP.

Edited July 4, 2012 by Alizio

[KBSIP]

doesnt take a brain surgeon to see one spec is doing massive game topping DPS and the other is average at best.

 

 

 

what is making u more wanted in a grp?? your "tools" which you still have way less of than other classes??

 

 

 

fact is the only thing that makes VG viable at this point is the burst and high powered DPS but you took that out for your toon, so what is it that makes you so valuble to your grp??

 

 

u are the one that literally made 0 points except "go learn about the game"..... yea...... i wanna learn from a guy who picks a weaker spec and gear.... plz teach me the elite ways of tactics/combat tech.

 

 

but as i said, IDGAF if u wanna be useless for rateds etc, thats your choice. Aslong as you are having fun, who cares.

 

 

btw,i never edited anything out, i just added more. QQ some more but dont QQ about playing a much weaker spec and topping it off by wearing the wrong gear lol WP sir, WP.

 

Advanced prototype deals equitable damage to pyros pound for pound if you eliminate the 15% crit bonus from the equation. PFT with five stacks is a far more fearsome damage dealer than even ravage/MS on a fully specced warrior/knight or even smash, if someone's willing to eat all the ticks. Pyros excel past AP primarily because PFT is also a self root for 3 seconds and is subject to interrupts, whereas railshot is not. This means an AP that is getting enemy attention and having their PFT interrupt-stunned is going to lose their heavy burst every 12 seconds, which gimps overall damage output. However, an AP that manages to stay low on enemy priorities will be able to destroy the enemy team, specifically when they try to melee focus a teammate and all eat a full PFT. an AP also retains an incombat speed boost that helps to make up for the motion lost when using flamethrower, and hydraulic overrides can be crucial for speed scoring in huttball or rushing for caps/defends on other warzones.

[SajPl]

congrats on destroying the class....

 

So you are one of the bads that cant't play the class ... just like operatives, the good ones still destroy people, the bad ones can only cry about a destroyed class.

the same kind of badds that cried that the class will be destroyed after the lockout of hib proc, and still the class is more then fine.

Edited July 4, 2012 by SajPl

[Mularky]

So you are one of the bads that cant't play the class ... just like operatives, the good ones still destroy people, the bad ones can only cry about a destroyed class.

 

/This

[diggydoolans]

Its quite easy to fix pyro/assault

 

just revert the proc chance to pre 1.2

 

so back to 45% from 60% for rocket punch/stockstrike & 30% from 45% for flame burst/ion pulse

[KBSIP]

Its quite easy to fix pyro/assault

 

just revert the proc chance to pre 1.2

 

so back to 45% from 60% for rocket punch/stockstrike & 30% from 45% for flame burst/ion pulse

 

witht he same 6 second cooldown? that'd increase the times I get proc starved in PVE and reduce overall sustained to an unacceptable level. there's a reason they buffed the chances when they put an internal cooldown on there, metrics demonstrated that if you only put a 6 second internal cooldown on the procs you would reduce overall sustained DPS, which on long fights was competitive but not game breaking. if you do so now you would make the DPS on pyros non-competitive and damage the PVE side of the spec.

Edited July 4, 2012 by KBSIP

[diggydoolans]

witht he same 6 second cooldown? that'd increase the times I get proc starved in PVE and reduce overall sustained to an unacceptable level. there's a reason they buffed the chances when they put an internal cooldown on there, metrics demonstrated that if you only put a 6 second internal cooldown on the procs you would reduce overall sustained DPS, which on long fights was competitive but not game breaking. if you do so now you would make the DPS on pyros non-competitive and damage the PVE side of the spec.

 

I used to run the parrakeet spec pre 1.2 I still had plenty of procs even with the 30%/ 45% chance.

 

When they increased it i thought thats insane cause now pyro/assault will melt people.

 

What happened next....

 

Its my opinion of toning down a class that nearly always finishes top of the damage charts

[Lexlo]

-Prevent powertechs/vanguards from wearing the commando/mercenary set giving a 15% crit chance to railshot/hib - that is where the insane burst comes from - commandos deserve it because of lower armor penetration, vanguards are over the top because of it.

 

Bad Pyros use the Eliminator Set.

[Winkywinky]

So you are one of the bads that cant't play the class ... just like operatives, the good ones still destroy people, the bad ones can only cry about a destroyed class.

the same kind of badds that cried that the class will be destroyed after the lockout of hib proc, and still the class is more then fine.

 

hey tanks for the personal attack..

-Prevent powertechs/vanguards from wearing the commando/mercenary set giving a 15% crit chance to railshot/hib - that is where the insane burst comes from - commandos deserve it because of lower armor penetration, vanguards are over the top because of it.

 

so were the ONLY class now with 2 sets of gear....thx

 

-the 2 talent points in Assault trooper give 30% bonus crit damage to Assault plastique, HiB, incindiery round and plasma cell either reduce the emount of abilities to only HiB and Plastique or make it 7.5 and 15% not 30

- reduce a bit the huge bonuses to tech crit chance the Assault tree gets (6% in total is a lot)

 

kill the burst without adding any defense tools...thx now were worse then then Infiltration shadows and we see a ton of those already right?

 

Finally remove the snare from flame burst and ion pulse and give us a slow ability because it's crippling for the tank tree as well, both other tanking AC's have a slow and an AOE slow, vanguards dont and as a tank they need some control, and the 2 second slow from rocket punch/stockstrike is a joke, give us a real slow or an aoe one for example neural surge or flame sweep slows the target by 50-30% for X seconds.

 

so now were need a 1 slow and just remove all the slows (3 of them) from the trees...its the ONLY thing that makes any sense...

 

Also "battle focus" should work diferrently depending on cell active so for ion cell it could be a 20-40% damage reduction for the duration, for tactics it could be a complete cc immunity and a 100% speed buff for the duration and for Assault it could remain as it is.

 

so the idea to remove assault burst is gutting the talents in the tree and then leaving the main reason people cry about burst?

 

its not the 50% crit of HIB that the problem its the 75% chance for back to back HIB and 60% on Assault Plastique ...

 

honestly why even play a Assault spec if you are going to have crappy damage and no real defenses..atleast turn the spec into a range Marauder or something with sustained damage..

[SajPl]

Bad Pyros use the Eliminator Set.

 

Eliminator set is one of the factors that brings pyro to a degree of let's call it outperforming other classes, having 3 of 4 railshots crit and it's simply an oversight of BW. Personally I have a WH eliminators set, which i'm min maxing now and a BM combat tech and BM supercommando's.

[Lexlo]

Eliminator set is one of the factors that brings pyro to a degree of let's call it outperforming other classes, having 3 of 4 railshots crit and it's simply an oversight of BW. Personally I have a WH eliminators set, which i'm min maxing now and a BM combat tech and BM supercommando's.

 

The most effective set for Pyro is BM-armored (WH Mod/Enh) PvE Combat Tech. You have a high crit chance just from armor, you don't need the crit bonus from the set bonus.

Edited July 4, 2012 by Lexlo
elaboration

[SajPl]

so were the ONLY class now with 2 sets of gear....thx

 

 

 

kill the burst without adding any defense tools...thx now were worse then then Infiltration shadows and we see a ton of those already right?

 

 

 

so now were need a 1 slow and just remove all the slows (3 of them) from the trees...its the ONLY thing that makes any sense...

 

 

1. Shadow's do not wear gear meant for sages, guess why ? The eliminator's set is clearly made for the commandos hint, check 2 piece set bonus and vanguards are simply outperforming with it.

2. Doing a 4.5k hib+4.2k assault plastique+2.7k stockstrike+4.5k hib while at the same time you have 2 dot's ticking one for 500 the other for 800 damage, don't you think that might be "slightly" over the top ? Yes those are all crit numbers yet a good pyro has his gear customized so that he will have all those things critting more often than not.

3. Shield spec 2 second slow is a joke. Tactics slow from gut is barely noticible. The class needs a real slow ability like leg slash or force slow (slow target for 50% for at least 6 seconds).

[Winkywinky]

1. Shadow's do not wear gear meant for sages, guess why ? The eliminator's set is clearly made for the commandos hint, check 2 piece set bonus and vanguards are simply outperforming with it.

 

1. and what IF in 2 months they make it viable for shadows?......thats the point....dont get rid of it change it and by the way commandos HIB is that much less...it really isnt but people think it is because of that 90% number..

 

2. Doing a 4.5k hib+4.2k assault plastique+2.7k stockstrike+4.5k hib while at the same time you have 2 dot's ticking one for 500 the other for 800 damage, don't you think that might be "slightly" over the top ? Yes those are all crit numbers yet a good pyro has his gear customized so that he will have all those things critting more often than not.

2 hows is that any different then if i sweep for 4.5k ,blade storm 2.5k master strike for 1.7k-1.7k -3k

 

van 15.9k .... guardian 13.4k ...... and a guardian has better CD's....cant be the damage really?

 

again if and i say a BIG IF Vans have a problem its the big crit chance on battle focus nothing more....

 

3. Shield spec 2 second slow is a joke. Tactics slow from gut is barely noticible. The class needs a real slow ability like leg slash or force slow (slow target for 50% for at least 6 seconds).

 

and didnt i say that was the only good advise you made?

 

 

the real problem with people is that they dont have more then 1 50 thats geared....when you have 3-4 you will see that damage is the same around and its really just defense CD's...does 1 class do alittle more damage then another sure but they dont have the D to back it up like other class's that can last longer and do the same amount of damage...

 

by the way Snipers do more damage then Vans now in burst..

 

if its just TTK that is the problem lower the trinket ( Tenacity for Vans ) to 1 minute for everyone and lower all defense CD's also....now no more people getting blown up easily when cd's are on timer like now..

Edited July 4, 2012 by Winkywinky