Vigilance pvp needs a buff

[Qa-Weef]

Umm, you know that Vigilance has a talent that resets Master Strike? Do you know why that is?

 

Please give me some arguments as to why wouldn't Master Strike be a top priority attack right after Force Leap, taking advantage of Force Leap's root? And what does it have to do with the opponent being melee or ranged? Try to explain it without the maddening condescension please.

 

 

 

Based on some of your posts you sound exactly the sort of person who would do that (try to backpedal out of Master Strike), despite the sarcasm here.

 

Fights against good melee players are usually extremely dynamic, mobile encounters.

To me you come off as a guy who's only fought people who are happy to remain stationary. That last tick of MS won't hit against anyone even semi competent, so choosing 2 ticks of MS over PB, which lays on our best dot and sets up BS to crit seems counter intuitive.

 

As to why there's a talent to reset MS, thats easy, it's to help fill the odd hole in our PVE rotations.

Edited July 4, 2012 by Qa-Weef

[Helig]

Fights against good melee players are usually extremely dynamic, mobile encounters.

To me you come off as a guy who's only fought people who are happy to remain stationary. That last tick of MS won't hit against anyone even semi competent, so choosing 2 ticks of MS over PB, which lays on our best dot and sets up BS to crit seems counter intuitive.

 

As to why there's a talent to reset MS, thats easy, it's to help fill the odd hole in our PVE rotations.

 

Actually, I find MS resets very useful in PvP. Free 2.5-4.5k damage from two initial hits is nothing to scoff at.

 

By the way, as for your BP Sunder requirement complaint, I see another way. Why wouldn't talented OH Slash add a Sunder to the target, as well? Sometimes I feel like I *have* to Sunder because I don't want the debuff to fall off, while I have a lot of Focus that I'd rather spend (Defiance keeps me swimming in Focus, as do Momentum and Zen Strike).

Edited July 4, 2012 by Helig

[Siorac]

Fights against good melee players are usually extremely dynamic, mobile encounters.

To me you come off as a guy who's only fought people who are happy to remain stationary. That last tick of MS won't hit against anyone even semi competent, so choosing 2 ticks of MS over PB, which lays on our best dot and sets up BS to crit seems counter intuitive.

 

As to why there's a talent to reset MS, thats easy, it's to help fill the odd hole in our PVE rotations.

 

I repeat, once again, as you seem to ignore this: I use Master Strike after Force Leap, mostly. Force Leap ROOTS the target. To escape that, they need to use their CC breaker - and there's a good chance they can't, seeing it's on a long cooldown for each class. If they don't use CC breaker, they can't get out of range quickly enough after the root ends so they eat the full three hits. If they do - well, hey, they used CC break for a root!

 

And I use Plasma Brand, Blade Storm and Overhead Slash every 9 seconds whenever possible, obviously (and I miss the PvE set bonus that lowers the range of Saber Throw, it's so brilliant for applying that sunder ). But that does not mean Master Strike isn't one of the most important abilities in our "burst" rotation and thus it's immensely useful in PvP. And it's even better when, for example, your target is stunned. Which happens often in SWTOR.

 

(And this is not related to the discussion of MS's usefulness as it only happens once in a blue moon but I love it: the best, funniest scenario is when two Guardians attack the same target who has empty resolve bar but his CC breaker is not available. Guardian 1 uses Stasis, Guardian 2 uses Master Strike; then Guardian 2 uses Stasis and Guardian 1 uses Master Strike. When, extremely rarely, it happens, it's beautiful).

[Xtrema]

I repeat, once again, as you seem to ignore this: I use Master Strike after Force Leap, mostly. Force Leap ROOTS the target. To escape that, they need to use their CC breaker - and there's a good chance they can't, seeing it's on a long cooldown for each class. If they don't use CC breaker, they can't get out of range quickly enough after the root ends so they eat the full three hits. If they do - well, hey, they used CC break for a root!

 

And I use Plasma Brand, Blade Storm and Overhead Slash every 9 seconds whenever possible, obviously (and I miss the PvE set bonus that lowers the range of Saber Throw, it's so brilliant for applying that sunder ). But that does not mean Master Strike isn't one of the most important abilities in our "burst" rotation and thus it's immensely useful in PvP. And it's even better when, for example, your target is stunned. Which happens often in SWTOR.

 

(And this is not related to the discussion of MS's usefulness as it only happens once in a blue moon but I love it: the best, funniest scenario is when two Guardians attack the same target who has empty resolve bar but his CC breaker is not available. Guardian 1 uses Stasis, Guardian 2 uses Master Strike; then Guardian 2 uses Stasis and Guardian 1 uses Master Strike. When, extremely rarely, it happens, it's beautiful).

 

Don't bother my man, from what I can tell he's only seeing what he wants to see. If he wants to skip out on one of our strongest hitting abilities because he can't seem to figure out how to make use of unstoppable or stagger, then so be it, his loss.

 

Btw, the stasis is totally unnecessary, it gives time for healers to bring them back, for the best burst u should both just MS right away (one root is usually enough anyways). I used to group with this other veng jugg (yes I'm on the other side ) just charge and double MS, followed by double dispatch. If they're still alive, double scream (blade storm is it?), unless they're incredibly shielded/guarded it's almost always a kill by the double dispatches, and yes it is pretty awesome

Edited July 4, 2012 by Xtrema

[_Zorth_]

Yeah, they forget where their Obfuscate button is, and they think that Camo is an escape maneuver.

 

I practically laugh at any Vigi Guard\Veng Jugg who thinks that "loooool i caerg u ravveg, imapel, scraem, choak, execoot and ur ded lol". Congratulations, he just did 2-3k damage in total, while I already have a full stack of Bleeds on his sorry behind.

 

Just AoE Stun and let the debuff wear off, Unless the mara/sentinel is a complete idiot and burns his cc breaker at my first stun. When it's gone, I continue with my rotation and throw in a few CD's just to stay alive long enough to beast on him.

 

Saber Throw > Charge = 2-3k damage in total..

raveeg, impapel, scraem, choak, execoot = 14-16k dmg.

[GarfieldJL]

Sages/Sorcerers, Shadows/Assassins, Sentinels/Marauders, Guardians/Juggernauts, all have an easy way to lessen the effects of using master strike in the opening attacks.

 

The first two have their various shield abilities that would substancially lower the damage they take (provided they aren't in a situation where they can't use it due to various cooldowns), since that skill can't really be interrupted. The latter two have saber ward, which semi-negates the effects of attacks, but they have a lengthy cooldown which means if there is a second Guardian/Juggernaut in play, they're going to definately get nailed.

[_Zorth_]

Sages/Sorcerers, Shadows/Assassins, Sentinels/Marauders, Guardians/Juggernauts, all have an easy way to lessen the effects of using master strike in the opening attacks.

 

The first two have their various shield abilities that would substancially lower the damage they take (provided they aren't in a situation where they can't use it due to various cooldowns), since that skill can't really be interrupted. The latter two have saber ward, which semi-negates the effects of attacks, but they have a lengthy cooldown which means if there is a second Guardian/Juggernaut in play, they're going to definately get nailed.

 

You also forget that the jugg can just push them away, charge them again.. Do impale or Shatter and have his ravage back, beasting on those guys with his ravage again.. oh and don't forget the damage that Shatter, Charge and Impale do.

[clearsighted]

I honestly im interested in how you guys pvp.

Right now my gaurdian is useless (lvl 30) compared to any other class i played, even my lvl 11 sage is more usefull as i does more damage with 2 spells and can heal also.

 

I specced into zealous leap, else everyone keeps kiting me and the rest of the points thrown around.

Basicly i jump/charge in and after 5 seconds im dead. I try to pick on person of but my dmg is so ridicilously low, i dont get them down even to 50%, while i just die in 5 globals.

 

Until you're at lvl 50, in at least battlemaster, noone gives a damn about your opinion. You don't even get Guardian Leap until 50.

[GarfieldJL]

You also forget that the jugg can just push them away, charge them again.. Do impale or Shatter and have his ravage back, beasting on those guys with his ravage again.. oh and don't forget the damage that Shatter, Charge and Impale do.

 

That goes both ways in the case of Guardian vs. Juggernaut, since they both have force push.

[_Zorth_]

That goes both ways in the case of Guardian vs. Juggernaut, since they both have force push.

 

Yea but I guess Guardian vs. Jugg scenarios don't have anything to do with the class but with the player since they all have the exact same tools and depending on how you use them you'll either win the encounter ot not

[CaptKirk]

Lol if you dont think Vig Guardians are strong in pvp you are doing it very very wrong.....

 

but by all all means if you want to buff us.. please do

Edited July 5, 2012 by CaptKirk

[Qa-Weef]

Actually, I find MS resets very useful in PvP. Free 2.5-4.5k damage from two initial hits is nothing to scoff at.

 

By the way, as for your BP Sunder requirement complaint, I see another way. Why wouldn't talented OH Slash add a Sunder to the target, as well? Sometimes I feel like I *have* to Sunder because I don't want the debuff to fall off, while I have a lot of Focus that I'd rather spend (Defiance keeps me swimming in Focus, as do Momentum and Zen Strike).

 

I agree, those two ticks are great, they work well in conjunction with a full set of Vigilance dots. i use MS alot but not as an opener and especially not after being jumped by a Shadow.

 

Either way I'm all for buffing our single strike abilities.

 

Siorac the rationale in prioritizing PB, OS and BS ahead of MS immediately after the initial FL is due to those attacks providing better dps through their damage over time debuffs, which I'd foolishly assumed everyone would want ticking asap in what is essentially a scramble for position. If you're locked into a channelled move straight off the bat, you've given the opposing player the advantage of dictating the momentum of the encounter, which is an advantage i wouldn't want to give to another skilled melee.

 

Back on message: Plasma Brand, our 31 point talent still needs to be freed of its Sundering Strike requirement, because of its status at the top talent of the Vigilance tree as well as being the most expensive ability focus wise.

The fact that it has the chance to be mitigated twice due to an unnecessary prerequisite strike by classes with high passive defence is unacceptable.

Apparently now, due to community concerns it might need a bit of a front end dps buff aswell as it isn't the top priority attack a 31 point talent should be >.>

Edited July 5, 2012 by Qa-Weef

[Helig]

Just AoE Stun and let the debuff wear off, Unless the mara/sentinel is a complete idiot and burns his cc breaker at my first stun. When it's gone, I continue with my rotation and throw in a few CD's just to stay alive long enough to beast on him.

 

Saber Throw > Charge = 2-3k damage in total..

raveeg, impapel, scraem, choak, execoot = 14-16k dmg.

That's the beauty of it. He loses his mez during the first seconds of the fight. That means he won't counter my CloP.

 

You can also camo through Ravage while you're rooted and they're unstoppable.

 

Point is - Guardian is my main, Marauder is my, well, second main. Played both extensively and when I say that toe to toe a Marauder has more chances than Vigilance Guardian, I'm inclined to believe that what I'm saying is very close to truth.

[truevalon]

I agree, those two ticks are great, they work well in conjunction with a full set of Vigilance dots. i use MS alot but not as an opener and especially not after being jumped by a Shadow.

 

Either way I'm all for buffing our single strike abilities.

 

Siorac the rationale in prioritizing PB, OS and BS ahead of MS immediately after the initial FL is due to those attacks providing better dps through their damage over time debuffs, which I'd foolishly assumed everyone would want ticking asap in what is essentially a scramble for position. If you're locked into a channelled move straight off the bat, you've given the opposing player the advantage of dictating the momentum of the encounter, which is an advantage i wouldn't want to give to another skilled melee.

 

Back on message: Plasma Brand, our 31 point talent still needs to be freed of its Sundering Strike requirement, because of its status at the top talent of the Vigilance tree as well as being the most expensive ability focus wise.

The fact that it has the chance to be mitigated twice due to an unnecessary prerequisite strike by classes with high passive defence is unacceptable.

Apparently now, due to community concerns it might need a bit of a front end dps buff aswell as it isn't the top priority attack a 31 point talent should be >.>

 

I agree with removing the sunder requirement, I also think the duration of the dot should be lowered to 9 or even 6 seconds and have it tick every second.

[Sgt_Hammer]

So what? I made him waste his charge, his 10% damage set bonus and his "unstoppable master strike" advantage. Better yet - drew out his mez.

 

Besides, if you stand and "look at your debuffs" and not start Master Striking precisely after the charge, you'll only extend the window in which the final, strongest hit may be averted (0.5 sec normally - Unstoppable wears off just before the third hit lands). Even if I stopped one Master Strike with Obfuscate, it's a point in my favor. And toe to toe, cooldown for cooldown, marauder can has more than enough of these "points".

 

force push resets leap. leap again whoops rotation back on

 

edit* would stasis not waste mez

Edited July 5, 2012 by Sgt_Hammer

[Helig]

force push resets leap. leap again whoops rotation back on

 

edit* would stasis not waste mez

 

Two 1-min cooldowns to recover from the effects of one 1-minute cooldown?

[Siorac]

Siorac the rationale in prioritizing PB, OS and BS ahead of MS immediately after the initial FL is due to those attacks providing better dps through their damage over time debuffs, which I'd foolishly assumed everyone would want ticking asap in what is essentially a scramble for position. If you're locked into a channelled move straight off the bat, you've given the opposing player the advantage of dictating the momentum of the encounter, which is an advantage i wouldn't want to give to another skilled melee. >

 

My problem with that rationale is that the dots these abilities give are simply not strong enough to justify sacrificing Master Strike - because not opening with it after FL against a skilled player is basically giving up on it - which can do anything between 6k-10k damage in two GCDs.

 

Looking at my combat logs from Operations - yet to upload Warzone logs but I will soon - I'd have to agree that Plasma Brand needs a buff because the damage it does is usually quite some way behind that of Overhead Slash and Blade Storm, let alone Master Strike. Its main function seems to be to grant Force Rush - but Overhead Slash can do that - and to reset Master Strike - but Overhead Slash can do that too. It's a bit underwhelming for a 31-point talent, even if it cannot be shielded (and I rarely go after tanks in PvP anyway, that's not really our job). Especially compared to something like Force Exhaustion. It's still better than this new Guardian Slash though

Edited July 5, 2012 by Siorac

[GarfieldJL]

My problem with that rationale is that the dots these abilities give are simply not strong enough to justify sacrificing Master Strike - because not opening with it after FL against a skilled player is basically giving up on it - which can do anything between 6k-10k damage in two GCDs.

 

Looking at my combat logs from Operations - yet to upload Warzone logs but I will soon - I'd have to agree that Plasma Brand needs a buff because the damage it does is usually quite some way behind that of Overhead Slash and Blade Storm, let alone Master Strike. Its main function seems to be to grant Force Rush - but Overhead Slash can do that - and to reset Master Strike - but Overhead Slash can do that too. It's a bit underwhelming for a 31-point talent, even if it cannot be shielded (and I rarely go after tanks in PvP anyway, that's not really our job). Especially compared to something like Force Exhaustion. It's still better than this new Guardian Slash though

 

The problem with the damage logs is that it seperates out the DoT damage from the initial damage. When you add the totals together, plasma brand does in fact deal significantly higher damage than Overhead Strike. People tend to look at what plasma brand does as far as front end damage, and completely miss the fact that the bulk of its damage generation is back end. Since it is a 12 second duration in which the DoTs can critical, you can see instances where plasma brand actually will beat out Master Strike in raw numbers where damage is concerned.

 

I will say plasma brand is more useful in PvE over PvP though, because you have to deal rapid burst damage to a target to prevent player healers from healing your target, but in PvE Plasma Brand is actually something that should take priority over master strike in the opening attacks. Plasma brand has a 9 second cooldown if I remember correctly. When you throw in blade storm (critical), followed by master strike then a sundering strike, you will have plasma brand ready to be used again or overhead strike is ready to be used.

 

The argument that plasma brand shouldn't have the armor debuff requirement is just plain silly though.

 

1. Sundering throw, makes all your saber throws dish out the armor debuff.

2. Sundering strike --- can give up to 2 armor debuff and 3 focus if you are using shien, it is your main focus builder for crying out loud.

 

If one is having problems using plasma brand due to the armor debuff requirement, one should learn to start using sundering strike to generate focus, instead of the strike attack you get at lvl 1.

 

Getting back to topic, in PvP you want to dish out a large amount of damage in a very short period of time in order to take out a target (also a lot of PvPers insist that people use sorseu if vigilence for the armor buff).

 

In PvE you want to dish out damage, but you must also look to sustain that damage output, requiring some different tactics. Example you are going to use shien in PvE as a dps, because you don't want to pull threat from a tank.

Edited July 6, 2012 by GarfieldJL

[Alec_Fortescue]

I am very annoyed with Pooled Hatred - its duration is very short and it's difficult to time the impale with it. Also not every cc is filling it... Consular overloads, stuns, saps - they're not affecting pooled hatred, even though it is imparing our movement. Imo that should change and would add greatly to our damage as we're simply rag dolls in pvp... Maybe people will consider twice before stunlocking us all the time. Edited July 6, 2012 by Alec_Fortescue

[Sgt_Hammer]

Two 1-min cooldowns to recover from the effects of one 1-minute cooldown?

 

i never said that marauders didnt have the best defensive cooldowns (kinda broken) also i have never had that ability used on me in pvp or in duels by players that i know are actually good and all of those fights are very even. i will also be testing out your ability versus mine with a sent buddy of mine we are even equal gear so should be a fun fight.

[Qa-Weef]

My problem with that rationale is that the dots these abilities give are simply not strong enough to justify sacrificing Master Strike - because not opening with it after FL against a skilled player is basically giving up on it - which can do anything between 6k-10k damage in two GCDs.

 

Looking at my combat logs from Operations - yet to upload Warzone logs but I will soon - I'd have to agree that Plasma Brand needs a buff because the damage it does is usually quite some way behind that of Overhead Slash and Blade Storm, let alone Master Strike. Its main function seems to be to grant Force Rush - but Overhead Slash can do that - and to reset Master Strike - but Overhead Slash can do that too. It's a bit underwhelming for a 31-point talent, even if it cannot be shielded (and I rarely go after tanks in PvP anyway, that's not really our job). Especially compared to something like Force Exhaustion. It's still better than this new Guardian Slash though

 

So in a roundabout way you've just agreed with my initial statement. I'm glad you've come on board.

The majority of good melee are either sentinels or shadow tanks, that's where the smart players have gone. We are weak against these two dominant melee classes.

 

I'm not having a go at you now but I am a bit worried since you also seem unable to grasp a couple of fundamental ideas.

1.That having a heavy dot ticking away early on increases the amount of pressure we can apply with our subsequent attacks.

2.Being a melee is all about mobility and controlling the angle of attack. I cannot stress the importance of this point enough. By controlling this aspect alone I may be able to squeeze in an extra GCD as I force whoever I've targeted to play in a reactionary manner.

 

I personally find that ST, FL, PB ( In close to full WH gear PB crits anywhere from 2-3k depending on whom I'm hitting),BS (crit), provides fantastic burst and it doesn't compromise our ability to initially dictate the movement of the fight as opening with a channelled ability will.

 

GarfieldJL, I appreciate your contribution but I feel as though your missing the argument, I'm not advocating against Sundering Strike or Saber Throw, I'm advocating for the removal of the armour reducing debuff as a prerequisite to our most expensive ability. Its unfair and unnecessary for a 31 point talent to be slugged with this extra cost.

I use SS and ST a lot. What rustles my jimmies is when these moves are dodged/parried and in turn compromise my ability to apply Plasma Brand in that first contact. This alone can be the deciding factor against a good shadow that's come out of stealth as I'm guarding a node. Highly situational, I know but still relevant considering the amount of shadows running around.

 

As to running around in Soresu form, it has its situational merits but as you said: PVP is all about killing that other player as fast as possible and I find Shien Form that little bit better for focus management.

[Siorac]

So in a roundabout way you've just agreed with my initial statement. I'm glad you've come on board.

The majority of good melee are either sentinels or shadow tanks, that's where the smart players have gone. We are weak against these two dominant melee classes.

 

I'm not having a go at you now but I am a bit worried since you also seem unable to grasp a couple of fundamental ideas.

1.That having a heavy dot ticking away early on increases the amount of pressure we can apply with our subsequent attacks.

2.Being a melee is all about mobility and controlling the angle of attack. I cannot stress the importance of this point enough. By controlling this aspect alone I may be able to squeeze in an extra GCD as I force whoever I've targeted to play in a reactionary manner.

 

I personally find that ST, FL, PB ( In close to full WH gear PB crits anywhere from 2-3k depending on whom I'm hitting),BS (crit), provides fantastic burst and it doesn't compromise our ability to initially dictate the movement of the fight as opening with a channelled ability will.

 

Basically, you don't fully exploit the advantage of Unremitting. I don't think that's wise but it's your choice; Unremitting gives us the chance to actually make the best use of our hardest hitting attack - and please don't try to tell me that it isn't Master Strike because that would mean some incredibly bad math on your part.

 

A heavy dot is a nice thing if we're talking about Watchman Sentinel dots or the Sorcerer's Crushing Darkness or Dirty Fighters' bleeds - but even the combined burns of Blade Storm, Plasma Brand and Overhead Slash provide merely adequate dot damage because it's spread out over a relatively long time. A healer can heal that through easily, can cleanse it - they are useful but once again, you basically waste the root of Force Leap and the entire Unremitting. You basically give up on Master Strike which is baffling and unwise. Stagger + Unremitting gives you every tool to use a very powerful channeled attack yet you waste that chance by prioritising abilities that are perfectly viable when both fighters regain their mobility - except one of them will miss a significant chunk of his health.

 

Now, in PvE, I agree with you. There I usually open with Saber Throw - Force Leap - Plasma Brand - Blade Storm - Master Strike - Overhead Slash; and hopefully OS resets Master Strike. That way you can make the most of Master Strike and apply the more powerful dots early on. But PvE mobs don't run away so it's not essential to exploit Unremitting's advantage by using Master Strike immediately.

 

(According to my logs, the dots applied by BS, OS and PB do less damage over a course of a long fight than the initial, direct damage of these abilities; these are PvE logs where I apply them at every possible opportunity)

Edited July 7, 2012 by Siorac

[GarfieldJL]

(According to my logs, the dots applied by BS, OS and PB do less damage over a course of a long fight than the initial, direct damage of these abilities; these are PvE logs where I apply them at every possible opportunity)

 

Concerning Blade Storm and Overhead Strike, you would be correct their DoTs do less damage than their initial attack.

 

In the case of Plasma Brand, you would be incorrect, I think that the logs are calculating each tick from the DoT seperately, instead of indicating the amount of damage you actually in total from the DoT. Assuming Plasma Brand's initial hit doesn't critical and the first 2 DoT ticks crit, then I've already matched the damage I dished out from the initial attack and I have plenty of time left on the DoT for it to inflict more damage.

[Qa-Weef]

Basically, you don't fully exploit the advantage of Unremitting. I don't think that's wise but it's your choice; Unremitting gives us the chance to actually make the best use of our hardest hitting attack - and please don't try to tell me that it isn't Master Strike because that would mean some incredibly bad math on your part.

 

A heavy dot is a nice thing if we're talking about Watchman Sentinel dots or the Sorcerer's Crushing Darkness or Dirty Fighters' bleeds - but even the combined burns of Blade Storm, Plasma Brand and Overhead Slash provide merely adequate dot damage because it's spread out over a relatively long time. A healer can heal that through easily, can cleanse it - they are useful but once again, you basically waste the root of Force Leap and the entire Unremitting. You basically give up on Master Strike which is baffling and unwise. Stagger + Unremitting gives you every tool to use a very powerful channeled attack yet you waste that chance by prioritising abilities that are perfectly viable when both fighters regain their mobility - except one of them will miss a significant chunk of his health.

 

Now, in PvE, I agree with you. There I usually open with Saber Throw - Force Leap - Plasma Brand - Blade Storm - Master Strike - Overhead Slash; and hopefully OS resets Master Strike. That way you can make the most of Master Strike and apply the more powerful dots early on. But PvE mobs don't run away so it's not essential to exploit Unremitting's advantage by using Master Strike immediately.

 

(According to my logs, the dots applied by BS, OS and PB do less damage over a course of a long fight than the initial, direct damage of these abilities; these are PvE logs where I apply them at every possible opportunity)

 

So now our dots aren't strong enough either in comparison to other melee's. I told you Vigilance guardians need a buff.

 

Leading with MS initially allows whoever you've just FL'd to set the momentum, as I've stated before that is an unacceptable advantage to give another melee. Even the less sophisticated players out there will usually dodge that last tick and start running rings around you. The possible benefit of MS as an opener (a little bit more burst when maybe landing that 3rd tick) can't compensate for being a sitting duck.

 

To me, not getting the back of the melee I've just rooted with my FL seems like a bigger waste of the root effect and unremitting, but hey, horses for courses bro.

 

So Plasma Brand needs a buff in the form of removal its sunder requirement (to stream line rotation during a switch and to decrease mitigation chances), better front end damage and a retuning of its damage over time properties to bring it more in line with its status as a 31 point talent.

[iandcph]

I'd have to agree with the OP that Vig guardians are the weakest of all melee DPS classes. you have a CC but you have to channel it. You have Awe, but hit the sucker, cc gone. You push, you give damage and then up to 3 extra hits since it would take time for the opponent to recover. Not complaining about how weak Vigilance spec guardians are but seriously we need a bit more bump. Not prolly with the skill damage but with the BASE stats. We could use an increase in Endurance. It's a litle bit unfair that a 2-handed Sentinel/Marauder can have the same HP as we when they can damage 1.6 times faster.