1.3 Thoughts thus far...

[Dedrayge]

Yea, the nerf was way too much. Now it no longer feels like my shadow is a tank and it definitely doesn't compare to other tanks. I can survive four guysin a WZ for a good period of time with my tank specced powertech, but, with my shadow, I can't survive two guys on me for long. Tank shadows are just a joke now. It's like, BW just randomly pics a class to nerf to make people miserable. Gunslingers/snipers and OPs/soundrels where the ones in need of a nerf.. In my opinion, they do too much damage for the utility that they have.

 

I would go infiltration, but, it just doesn't feel like a viable option. Just end up dieing before I can do any real damage. Shadows just feel useless now and I used to enjoy the class...

[Pizzel]

Back to Infiltration huh Shin? Let me know how that goes? I am willing to try anything to be more useful. My guild has 4 or 5 good shadows but most are Kc or some variant. We tried a rated with 4 of us and voidstar did not go well. Were matched up against 3 healers and a hybrid and it was awful without ranged dps. If I was on a team with 3 healers and 2 tanks I would maybe use infiltration but if u can't get heals I feel I would die so much. Especially againsteams that are good at peeling.

 

Still won but things are starting to show that concern me. Yes good players over class to an extent. But when there are good players on both sides the shortcomings of certain ACs are really showing more. I was worried with the nerfs to Kc and not touching infiltration or balance there was going to be some issues.

[Isyss]

I totally agree. I'm Kinetic spec at 31/0/10 and she's just too slow and there is a point that everything seems to have a longer cooldown other than AE's and even that is questionable and depends whether or not you are able to use it in a particular zone/mob.

I've tweeked my Shadow a little, staying in Kinetic spec but still no gratifying results. I've done the Infiltration tree before and just wasn't in my comfort zone. Now I feel my shadow seems useless in any party and make me feel I should shelf her. I have yet to try the Balance tree since the 1.3 patch. If this isn't working, I may have no choice but to shelf her. The change is apparent and overly done. If our Role was to DPS, Sages and Sents I believe have more useful skills. If our role was to Tank, the Guardian and Vanguard has better skills than us.

Where does that leave us?

I'm not even going to start with the change on Project. 3 threads is more than enough for BW to at least see the reactions from the change

 

Just my thoughts..

[theblaznee]

That is indeed a funky spec you're running there Shin'arika.. To me Expertise sounds like wasted points, but perhaps you have found out something neat?

[reinforever]

I'm actually running 7/31/3 Infil atm in rateds now. I'll post my thoughts on this when I get more games in. Going interesting. Anyone maining Balance care to share some thoughts?

 

I thank you for giving it a shot even though we've had some discrepancies in the past on whether it's viable or not. Let us know how it goes for you and whatnot, I'm interested to hear your results.

[anstalt]

I've stuck to my usual 5/33/3 build, its what I've been running for months now.

 

I haven't run rateds yet but the playstyle is definitely different to pre-1.3. It is less burst and more sustained damage now. I can no longer pop out of stealth and just melt someone with relic+adrenal+fp. Whilst that is annoying, I've tried to deal with it. My role has moved from offensive (melting priority targets) to more defensive (killing people who kill my healers). By making this shift, I avoid becoming the focus and thus have more up time and so my DPS has gone up.

 

With a good tank/healer in my premade, its still a lot of fun. Whilst I'm not getting my 5k hits as often as before, I'm getting much more 3k-4k hits in general so if I'm left alive then I do extremely well. However, with everyone's DPS going up in general, its rare im left alone so in big fights I die quicker than before.

 

 

So, overall, whilst I can still get by on my shadow in inf spec, its lost its main attractiveness (massive on-demand burst) whilst not gaining anything in return. KC got gutted and I don't like balance so not sure what I'll do. Probs just struggle on through with inf spec

 

On the other hand, in PvE im doing great!

[Boarg]

Hi, some thoughts.

 

KC (In PvP) not sure how you PvE folks are holding up. At this point, a full-tank geared KC is a wasted slot over a VG/Guardian who can not only fulfill the role better but just simply last longer. Even in full WH tank gear, I drop unbelievably fast compared to the other tanks out there. There's just no reason to bring a Shadow on board to tank for rateds. Not when there's far superior options out there. Playing in DPS gear isn't even a redeeming option. You're not doing heavy pressure and you're certainly not tanking anything. I find the nerf to KC quite frankly overdone and poorly thought out.

 

Even playing the disruptor role... 23/1/17 can do more damage and have more CC on targets. The standard 31/x/x KC builds have really lost it's flavour and now (as predicted)and are being replaced by real tanks. So this opens up the doorway for us to perform in our DPS specs, right? Uh... not really. Our DPS specs on a whole have been performing rather poorly.

 

Infiltration (as expected) has hit another low point. It's unbearable to even test that spec now at this point but I still keep trying with some glimmer of hope. The "sustained" damage is really laughable compared to other ACs/Specs out there... even our own Balance just makes me facepalm at infil. I even swapped up my mods/enh to gain different stat outputs such as high crit 28%. Spec is just overall in a bad spot and (imo) needs to be reworked to support the shift where the game is headed: Sustained.

 

Balance is better, but guys... have you seen what Balance Sage DPS/Sorc DPS can do in 1.3? They are very, very good. Their pressure upkeep is excellent, they can off-heal, they can pull, they can cast bubbles. They just completely outclass a Balance Shadow in every shape and form and I hate saying that. We're like a substitute version of a DPS Sage if a group doesn't have one.

 

23/1/17 Looks to be the real viable spec for us in rateds at this point. The utility of KC and Balance (Excluding Sever Force) along with solid sustained damage and respectable burst. On top of that, it's just as tanky as KC. Of course, I do not expect this to remain so forever. The meta-game constantly shifts and I would hope it doesn't stay the same.

 

All in all, I'm not too happy with 1.3. I can understand gutting one part of KC, but not to the level it's at. It's... bad. I really, really, REALLY expected BW to do something with our DPS specs. The fact that silly hybrid specs are outperforming 31/x/x is a design flaw and should be immediately looked at. This class is WAYYY too geared toward solo play at this point thanks to 1.3. Yeah, KC can still beat any other class/spec 1v1, or infil will make short work of someone that's wandering off alone. But... we're in a rated age, and people simply do not play stupid or alone. Our damage on a whole is lackluster and we need something done to this class immediately. Especially our DPS trees.

 

The whole "Jack of All Trades" is now looking at warming the bench. Rateds want Specialists, not Generalists. Guess what we are?

 

PS:

Insta-Project is cool for KC/Balance. Hate it for Infil.

Also... has anyone else noticed FiB not healing for it's descriptive amount?

 

I've been having a lot of the same observations after doing rateds nearly every night and doing a lot of high end team vs. high end team against a variety of different comps and some variation in my own group. So far, I've run about half as full Kinetic and half as Infiltration.

 

I had been predicting that we'd eventually get supplanted by the other tank classes for pure tank roles even before our nerf got announced… And it's definitely happening with the top teams. Vanguards are better and Guardians are the real superstars. The only common theme for teams that have been difficult is that they all run good Jugg tanks, usually two. We can even be semi-farming them and their tanks chaining cooldowns, taunts, disrupts and swapping guards makes it so hard to finish clearing a node and it gives time for the whole batch of rezzers to make it back and start over. Such a team can definitely beat a team with Shadow tanks by just out-tanking them. A Shadow can play just as well, but they will die instead because they can't handle the damage. And then Jugg tanks are like a cheat code in Huttball.

 

So, I think that's the huge problem our class has right now. Our best PvP spec is the tank spec, but we're the worst tank in high end rateds. What does that leave us with? Not much in a competitive team.

 

The only comp strategy I can see for Shadow tank is just to try to take advantage of its dps advantage in dps gear by running a dps heavy group with probably only 1 tank, and that being the Shadow who also does damage. And even then…the Guardian/Jugg would probably pull out more wins in the long run as a straight substitution. The other thing is just a solo node guard niche.

 

One thing I would slightly disagree on is that Kinetic hybrid is just as tanky as full Kinetic. Mainly, Slow Time's -5% damage debuff getting spammed onto a team along with the snare puts those specs a little bit ahead there for reduction of opponent team damage; it just doesn't show up on the scoreboard anywhere. There's also the Harnessed Shadows self healing, but I wouldn't want to overstate its value because it seems like whenever you really need it, the other team won't let you ever finish a channel. And that's pretty much put up against instant Lift for group utility…reasonable trade.

 

 

As for alternatives… I've actually been getting better group results running Infiltration. It just fills its role better than Kinetic, IMO. The problem is it's underpowered. So…I guess it's better to fill a role and be underpowered than it is to be strong and a bad fit.

 

The main limitation on Infiltration is that it probably only works in group comps that bring a ton of damage capability. If your group strat is outlasting opponents in sustained brawls, Infiltration isn't strong in those and would need to focus on being an objectives player. If your group can burst hard and kill fast, Infiltration really shines by either staying with the group and speeding up the kills or by stealthing off to make the other team pay for over-extending on defense…or forcing them to over-extend to stop your ninja cap.

 

 

Balance is still really strong at sustained pressure against those tank/healer heavy teams, but it's hard to picture them in a consistent winning comp. Even against those teams, can you really kill them fast enough to clear them off a node? Can you really stay alive when they decide to focus you? It just seems like a team would be much better off filling that slot with a AS Van or a Balance Sage or a Watchman Sent…possibly some others, even. And when you're not facing one of those teams? Yeah…not good.

 

Good time to reroll if you're not completely committed to your Shadow and really good at playing it.

[Boarg]

I don't know, maybe it's because of my amazing healers (in premade) or maybe it's about being more cautious or maybe it's because of more endurance (hello augments all over the place) but I don't feel much more squishier than before. Yes, the survavibility went down but not THAT much. Imo.

 

How noticable the nerf is mostly comes down to who you're playing against.

 

Our perception of it mostly comes down to the binary result. Am I dead or not dead?

 

Against mediocre teams, any tank has more than enough survivability to guard healers and live. Against a good team that has seriously good dps and focuses targets, you're having to swap guard each focused target and it's a completely different world. Healers have to spam heal the tank just to keep it alive, and Shadows just drop too fast to cope with and don't have enough or good enough defensive cooldowns to help out. Once 5s of Resilience is over...well, it's over.

 

Guardians on the other hand, have much more base mitigation, aoe disrupts/CC, powerful cooldowns, and absorb mechanic instead of healing.

 

When you put the two tanks against each other in an intense rated fight, the difference in results is drastic.

[Boarg]

In my eyes the scapegoat of the game is still commando, so all is good.

 

Maybe so... Although, Commandos are better healers than Shadows are tanks.

[Xinika]

As for alternatives… I've actually been getting better group results running Infiltration. It just fills its role better than Kinetic, IMO. The problem is it's underpowered. So…I guess it's better to fill a role and be underpowered than it is to be strong and a bad fit.

 

This. This.

[LuckyKnight]

I have to strongly disagree with the idea that Shadow tanks have no place/are inferior in rated WZs (even high-end rated). I've been running in a team on our server that is one of the top two teams on the server so far. I use the standard 31/0/10 spec with heavily modded survivor gear. We typically run with me and a Vanguard tank. We don't have a Guardian but Huttball is arguably our strongest WZ.

 

Did 1.3 hurt? Sure. But mostly in the 1v1 and 1v2 area as opposed to the mass melee you get in Voidstar. I compensated by adding a couple thousand more health and trying to be a little smarter with my defensive cooldowns. In Civil War or Novare Coast I can still solo guard a node and hold off 1-3 attackers long enough for reinforcements to show up. I don't seem to be dying much more than I did pre 1.3.

 

So for anybody saying Shadow tanks are inferior to the other tanks in rated WZs, sorry, not buying it.

[Boarg]

I want to try to make one thing clear since there's so much emphasis throughout the thread on the "nerf"…

 

If Bioware rolled back the Kinetic nerfs tomorrow, what would it change?

 

In terms of the meta, nothing at all. Guardians/Juggs would still be the best tank that all the top teams would try to run.

 

All it would change is how far behind we are…and does it really matter if you're last by a lot or last by a little?

 

 

To make Kinetic a viable PvP tank, they would have to roll back the nerfs AND give it better PvP relevant defensive cooldowns. And that would probably be too far towards OP in 1v1, so they'd probably have to nerf damage to compensate.

Edited July 2, 2012 by Boarg

[Pizzel]

Kinetic is far from useless. There is the tradeoff from Full kinetic or the hybrd KC. The hybrid on the right team is more beneficial. What I mean is if you need a tank to guard a healer and run Huttball there isn't much of an arguement for a shadow right now. Jugg tanks do both way better.

 

Now Infiltration hits hard and fast. Once again with the right team you can punish. It's just you are so squishy with no group utility, just damage thats pretty much it. Spam some taunts too I guess. in huttball you are a liability unless you can afford to just camp on there side or have a healer with you to hold mid.

 

Balance is starting to intrigue me. Sever force is a great move. Ignores resolve, awesome in huttball. A shadow has switched to it and is putting up ridiculous damage right now. Some will say its fluffy damage with dots but its still damage that needs to be healed. After 1.3 nerfs to burst sustained builds are shining. Balance is exactly that. I haven't ran full balance ever on my shadow. i have with my sage. I may practice up in normals this week and take it into rateds if it seems viable.

 

At the moment I am only using the 23 kc hybrid and the Arika hybrid. So any other options I am willing to try.

[Xinika]

I really need some more time before I can post my complete findings. I'm experimenting with Balance now. Next step will be 13/28.

[InariOkami]

The thing about infiltration is that I can't see a 0/13/28 spec being outclassed by anything infiltration can do. Infiltration brings strong burst with required setup, while 0/13/28 can burst without it and still has more utility by virtue of instant force lift. KC DPS hybrid with instant force lift still seems to me to be the strongest spec in a team comp since it still brings strong burst damage with almost the same tankiness as a 31/0/10 spec. It runs as a very effective peeler. We've always been good at everything, but not best at anything except utility and versatility and at this point we have to take advantage of that. We perform well in any given situation, but not amazing. That's the trade-off we give for being as versatile as we are. While I'm not content with the current state of Sins/Shadows, I think the best team comps will run at least one for adaptability. Of course this is still pre-season, the truth will come out in cross-server rated season 1.

[Xinika]

The thing about infiltration is that I can't see a 0/13/28 spec being outclassed by anything infiltration can do.

I haven't specced 13/28 since 1.3. Going to when I login. Read your posts on it. Interesting.

Not sharing full result-thoughts on any spec till I'm done w/ everything.

[Boarg]

The thing about infiltration is that I can't see a 0/13/28 spec being outclassed by anything infiltration can do.

 

Hmm...

 

Better survivability (if you take the talents)

 

Easily maintainable 100% uptime snare

 

Massively bigger Project crits

 

Massively bigger Force Breach crits

 

Better damage/force

 

Low resolve, low CD mez

 

More Force (both sustained and on demand)

 

Lower Cloak CD (if you take the talent)

 

 

There's pros and cons to both, but Infiltration does have some upside.

[breynded]

I'm running 5/31/5 which seems to be working better for me after 1.3. Not as much burst as 2/31/8, but a bit more survivable and with respectable DPS..

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#200McZGrbRzGMbtzZf.2

[InariOkami]

Hmm...

 

30% less aoe damage you shouldn't be standing in anyways (if you take the talents)

 

Easily maintainable 100% uptime snare

 

Massively bigger Project crits every 75 seconds

 

Massively bigger Force Breach crits that require a lot of setup

 

Better damage with cds up and left ignored by enemy team

 

Low resolve, low CD mez that's not as good as instant force lift

 

More Force that you shouldn't need if you're managing force correctly (both sustained and on demand)

 

Lower Cloak CD (if you take the talent)

 

 

There's pros and cons to both, but Infiltration does have some upside.

 

Fixed it for you...not to be an ***, but just to look at it a little more objectively. Not to mention that you have FiB as an extremely high critter. Almost as high as setup project crits, except they hit 3 people and can stop caps very efficiently.

Edited July 2, 2012 by InariOkami

[Boarg]

Fixed it for you...not to be an ***, but just to look at it a little more objectively. Not to mention that you have FiB as an extremely high critter. Almost as high as setup project crits, except they hit 3 people and can stop caps very efficiently.

 

People get hit with aoe even when they are doing a good job avoiding it. Also, a number of specs use "aoe" abilities in their single target rotation...including 0/13/28. FiB does -30% damage to an Infiltration. And there's the +30% armor too, although the other spec could get it too if it traded something for it.

 

The massively bigger crits for both Project and Breach come on every single crit. Forgetting that +50% multiplier on crit damage for both abilties? I usually have 3+ Exit Strategy stacks available for Breach without even trying. And I get crits pretty regularly in my setup - I don't need Force Potency to kill people. And 0/13/28 is no less dependant on FP if you gear low crit.

 

And you changed the damage/force thing into something that doesn't seem to make much sense... And extra force doesn't matter?? The class is force limited outside of initial burst. Our capability to do damage is directly tied to how much force we have and how much damage we can convert that force into. Pure Infiltration wins on both accounts and has better sustained damage because of it. People criticize Infiltration's sustained damage capability for good reason, but 0/13/28 is even worse off in that area.

 

Low Slash is pretty competitive with instant lift if you know how to use it. Instant lift is pretty much a win big or lose big ability on a lengthy CD. Sometimes it takes someone out of a fight for a while, but other times it just gives someone a free white bar all by itself - and then it's on CD for the remainder. Low Slash can give more total time in CC (more than double) and it comes in low resolve chunks so that if it doesn't work out...no biggie, not much resolve and it'll be back in 15s to try again. It's definitely a better option for getting someone to waste their CC breaker, too.

 

It just seems like you're not all that familiar with the nuts and bolts of Infiltration mechanics....like it's just a bunch of nameless faceless talents and abilities that don't actually do anything.

 

And if you think FiB crits can come close to Project (especially with Upheaval) in a full Infiltration build can hit for single target, that might explain some things.

Edited July 3, 2012 by Boarg

[InariOkami]

I understand Infiltration perfectly well, I've played it myself. What I'm saying is that it's so predictable and simple to shut down that in the end it's just not worth it. You can't deny that 2x CS is a necessary setup for project, and that CS is also one of the flashiest animations in the game. If I'm guarding a healer in rated and you jump on him, I'm going to wait for your 2x CS, then spinning kick, stun, lift any other DPS on the healer, and then when you're unstunned, taunt you, burn you down. Even if you resilience'd, your projects would be hitting 2.5-3k crits max on the guarded healer, as would your force breach. After the 3 seconds went down, I could repeat my CC/taunt chain. It's just the same deal over and over. If you tried to CC me, I could just stun break and pop 5 seconds of resilience. Whereas with 0/13/28 I don't know exactly when you're going to pop your burst, it's going to be more constant, even without crits it's going to be very strong pressure, and not to mention that death field would hit me for 150% if it hit me and my healer. I haven't come across one infiltration/deception that I haven't been able to shut down with no issue.

[reinforever]

I understand Infiltration perfectly well, I've played it myself. What I'm saying is that it's so predictable and simple to shut down that in the end it's just not worth it. You can't deny that 2x CS is a necessary setup for project, and that CS is also one of the flashiest animations in the game. If I'm guarding a healer in rated and you jump on him, I'm going to wait for your 2x CS, then spinning kick, stun, lift any other DPS on the healer, and then when you're unstunned, taunt you, burn you down. Even if you resilience'd, your projects would be hitting 2.5-3k crits max on the guarded healer, as would your force breach. After the 3 seconds went down, I could repeat my CC/taunt chain. It's just the same deal over and over. If you tried to CC me, I could just stun break and pop 5 seconds of resilience. Whereas with 0/13/28 I don't know exactly when you're going to pop your burst, it's going to be more constant, even without crits it's going to be very strong pressure, and not to mention that death field would hit me for 150% if it hit me and my healer. I haven't come across one infiltration/deception that I haven't been able to shut down with no issue.

 

Playing as a infitration, sometimes I won't throw a project after two CS's, sometimes I try to build exit strategy up too or even wait for the backstab proc. I've found that this makes me a bit less predictable.

[stridemachine]

While I'm by no means an expert, on paper comparing talents, Full Infil appears superior to Arika. I'm not seeing the increased survivability or force management, nor am i seeing superior burst. Perhaps someone can explain what I'm missing? I've played Kinetic heavy specs to death and I'm sick of it, but I can't justifiy Akira over Inflit just yet.

 

Another poster already pointed out many adantages of Infilt over Arika, but i wanted to emphasize a few:

 

30% aoe reduction is huge. Not sure why anyone would discredit it's viability. For added survivability, Arika gives ???

50% surge bonus on Project and Breach

Masked Assault + Profoundity vs ??? for force management

2 seconds off Force Lift cast vs 15 sec cd low resolve mez= advantage Low Slash

 

If I'm guarding a healer in rated and you jump on him, I'm going to wait for your 2x CS, then spinning kick, stun, lift any other DPS on the healer, and then when you're unstunned, taunt you, burn you down. Even if you resilience'd, your projects would be hitting 2.5-3k crits max on the guarded healer, as would your force breach.

How is this different from ANY dps that jumps on your healer? CC, taunt, burn down applies to anything. And what do you think Arika's damage is doing on a guarded healer? You're right in one point though, Arika is less predictible, but have you stopped to think about why? Aside from FiB, there's nothing Arika does that Infil doesn't. Where is this extra burst you speak of? I can promise that no one is going to Double Strike a healer to death in rateds.

 

Additionally, Arika wastes 5 talents just to get the 30% crit bonus on FiB (2 on Sharpened Mind, 2 on Mind Ward, 1 on Pinning Resolve). Why not just go with Balance stance and use some of the talents and bonuses to Dot's?

 

Honestly, I think the only reason this build gets any credit is because Shin'arika posted it (not to take anything away from her) and because everyone is fed up with Infiltration's limitations compared to Kinetic.

Please, though, show me where Arika shines over Infil (please be specific, and most importantly, impartial). I want to spec something new, I'm just not sure Arika is it.

Edited July 3, 2012 by stridemachine

[teremx]

Honestly, I think the only reason this build gets any credit is because Shin'arika posted it (not to take anything away from her) and because everyone is fed up with Infiltration's limitations compared to Kinetic.

Please, though, show me where Arika shines over Infil (please be specific, and most importantly, impartial). I want to spec something new, I'm just not sure Arika is it.

 

Limited Testing and Success

http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/skills/shadow#792092fe-0-10e8f23

 

My Arika, put the three somewhere other than balance

http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/skills/shadow#0-6786ke-c1ee830f

 

My Arika with Force Tech (came up with this as i wrote this). If you're going to wast 6 points for 30% crit bonus on FiB, why not waste 1 for 30% on shadow strike.

 

http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/skills/shadow#30-186ke-d7ee8323

[InariOkami]

I'll go by it point for point.

Force lift and low slash serve two very different purposes. If I want to take a healer out of a fight, I'm not going to stop attacking my focus to run 30 meters over to him, low slash, then run back. That's ridiculous; force lift's purpose is to take someone out of a fight for a long period of time, while low slash is for setting up for shadow strike and escapes, the latter which force lift does better.

 

The entire playstyle of infiltration is limiting which is part of why it's so easy to counter. For instance, you HAVE to setup two CS's before projecting, and you always want to have at least 3 stacks of exit strategy before force breach. If you don't do either of those, you're gimping yourself. The big hitters simply require too much setup, and even with that setup, you're relying on crits to produce any sort of real damage. Arika removes setup/rotation in favor of a priority system. If FiB is up, use it. If FB is up, use it. From there, you can choose from project, spinning strike, or double strike as filler (which also hits harder than CS). Not to mention that two of your biggest hitters are both internal damage. The amount of GCDs it takes to kill someone is pretty much the same as well.