Can we admit now that BW made a mistake trying to attract casuals?

[Citywok]

They ruin every MMO they come to. They whine and whine and want you to make everything easier but then complain about whatever you do, even if you accomplish what they wanted. You CANNOT sustain a sizable player base with a majority of casuals. They are the type of people who beat a game and then move on to the next. If you keep trying to please people who can't be pleased, nothing will work out.

[Razdek]

They ruin every MMO they come to. They whine and whine and want you to make everything easier but then complain about whatever you do, even if you accomplish what they wanted. You CANNOT sustain a sizable player base with a majority of casuals. They are the type of people who beat a game and then move on to the next. If you keep trying to please people who can't be pleased, nothing will work out.

 

Sooo wrong. Elitest ruin everything with their arrogant attitude.

[InnerPieces]

Sooo wrong. Elitest ruin everything with their arrogant attitude.

 

It is difficult not to agree with you, the point is a game needs all types if it wants to attempt to be the best. Shooting for anything less is, well, shooting for less.

 

Simple.

 

Obvious troll thread begging to be closed.

Edited June 27, 2012 by InnerPieces

[Citywok]

Elitist? More like realist. Do you really think EQ/ultima/swg etc were successful for such a long time because of the casual players? Nope, it's because they had a solid base and a core vision of the game. Casuals by definition do not play as much, and since they don't have time to accomplish certain things they think everything should be attainable for them as a casual player. That isn't how MMOs work and it isn't how successful ones stay open forever. Never before have I seen such vitriol and crudeness in an MMO like this before because of the base Bioware has attempted to attract. Casuals are like wham bam thank you maam and move on to the next game. You can't expect to build a long term MMO off of them.

[Lich_King_Arthas]

honestly both casuals and elties ruin all my games,

 

THEY ARE BOTH TO EXTREME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

everyone forgets the silent crown in the middle who enjoys the game that like a lot of it and want some small changes

 

 

but elties are like MAKE THIS IMPOSSIBLE TO GET SO I CAN BE A SPECIAL SNOWFLAKE!!!!!!!!

 

casuals are like I WANT INSTANT GRADIFICATION!!!!!!

 

both are fools who ruin games because as it always will be the happy medium is always the best spot because extremes are that to extreme and gets another group angry, of course most MMO"s catter to casuals because there a lot more people who want instant gradification then people wanting to be special snow flakes complaining and the people who hate both sit silently in the middle *aka me and other people*

[Forgon]

Elitist? More like realist. Do you really think EQ/ultima/swg etc were successful for such a long time because of the casual players? Nope, it's because they had a solid base and a core vision of the game. Casuals by definition do not play as much, and since they don't have time to accomplish certain things they think everything should be attainable for them as a casual player. That isn't how MMOs work and it isn't how successful ones stay open forever. Never before have I seen such vitriol and crudeness in an MMO like this before because of the base Bioware has attempted to attract. Casuals are like wham bam thank you maam and move on to the next game. You can't expect to build a long term MMO off of them.

 

Many would argue the success of SWG.

[NummSaul]

honestly both casuals and elties ruin all my games,

 

THEY ARE BOTH TO EXTREME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

everyone forgets the silent crown in the middle who enjoys the game that like a lot of it and want some small changes

 

 

but elties are like MAKE THIS IMPOSSIBLE TO GET SO I CAN BE A SPECIAL SNOWFLAKE!!!!!!!!

 

casuals are like I WANT INSTANT GRADIFICATION!!!!!!

 

both are fools who ruin games because as it always will be the happy medium is always the best spot because extremes are that to extreme and gets another group angry, of course most MMO"s catter to casuals because there a lot more people who want instant gradification then people wanting to be special snow flakes complaining and the people who hate both sit silently in the middle *aka me and other people*

 

 

^

I agree.

The people inbetween are the ones that suffer the most.

[Citywok]

Many would argue the success of SWG.

 

You can argue the success but it stayed open for 8 years, much longer than most MMOs do.

[Leovinus]

You CANNOT sustain a sizable player base with a majority of casuals.

 

I believe WoW would like a word with you.

[Sacrmeno]

OP, I don't see what you mean when you say casuals want instant gratification. I consider myself a casual and love this game and will probably keep playing for a very long time. None of the "instant gratification" stuff you're whining about.

[Lich_King_Arthas]

OP, I don't see what you mean when you say casuals want instant gratification. I consider myself a casual and love this game and will probably keep playing for a very long time. None of the "instant gratification" stuff you're whining about.

 

the problem is your using casual in the wrong way, you sound like a guy in the middle,

 

casual basically = baddie who wants everything right away because he can't stand the thought of having to work for anything.

 

elitist = someone who will never play a game unless he can become a special snowflake in some way

Edited June 27, 2012 by Lich_King_Arthas

[Sacrmeno]

the problem is your using casual in the wrong way, you sound like a guy in the middle,

 

casual basically = baddie who wants everything right away because he can't stand the thought of having to work for anything.

 

elitist = someone who will never play a game unless he can become a special snowflake in some way

 

Oh, thanks for clearing that up. I thought casual=casual gamer. I agree with you though, both those players are so annoying. I once grouped with an operative that whined about how we sucked (we died against final HS boss) when he wasn't even fighting, and asked us if we even knew how to play the game.

[Lich_King_Arthas]

like i said the people in the middle are the silent crowd who hate both groups, or don;t even know they are in the middle

 

*like most peoples beliefs in america puts them in the libertarian party yet most are not in it* so we have two extreme party's no one likes

 

same thing is going on here

 

overall, the minority is always louder then the majority

[Ashlian]

Elitist? More like realist. Do you really think EQ/ultima/swg etc were successful for such a long time because of the casual players? Nope, it's because they had a solid base and a core vision of the game. Casuals by definition do not play as much, and since they don't have time to accomplish certain things they think everything should be attainable for them as a casual player. That isn't how MMOs work and it isn't how successful ones stay open forever. Never before have I seen such vitriol and crudeness in an MMO like this before because of the base Bioware has attempted to attract. Casuals are like wham bam thank you maam and move on to the next game. You can't expect to build a long term MMO off of them.

 

Seriously? After 15 years of MMO's, playing since the launch of EQ1, I would have to say it's the hardcore players of my acquaintance who are the wham bam thank you ma'am players. They purchase every "Next Big Thing" as soon as it's launched, burn through the content in a mad race to the endgame, whine endlessly about lack of endgame content, talk constantly about the "NEXT Next Big Thing" and how it will totally be the best thing in the history of games before it's even in beta and how it will COMPLETELY own the current game they're playing, leave as soon as said "NEXT Next Big Thing" is a) in beta if they get an invite, or b) is launched if they don't, then c) return to the game they dissed after burning through the new game's content when the old game releases a new content patch only to d) rinse and repeat.

 

The casual players of my acquaintance tend to stick with games longer because they don't like learning curves on new games and if they like a game at all, they will wait a while before trying something else. They're more likely to follow friends than they are gaming trends. As a case in point, I have a guild full of hardcore players who raced to 50 who are now off playing D3 and beta testing GW2, and waiting for us to tell them when 1.4 is out (1.3 has nothing much they are interested in, though they logged in to move their toons when we transferred), and a few close casual friends in my guild who are altaholics, two of whom have JUST in the past couple of weeks, gotten a toon to 50. They have not bought D3, do not intend to buy D3, nor are they playing G2, because they're still enjoying SWTOR and have plenty to do. I'm sure there are many exceptions to both our data, but your suppositions are defiinitely flawed.

Edited June 27, 2012 by Ashlian

[InFamousHero]

They ruin every MMO they come to. They whine and whine and want you to make everything easier but then complain about whatever you do, even if you accomplish what they wanted. You CANNOT sustain a sizable player base with a majority of casuals. They are the type of people who beat a game and then move on to the next. If you keep trying to please people who can't be pleased, nothing will work out.

 

I'm more of a middle ground between "Elitist" and "casual."

 

I used to play WoW - *avoids rotten fruit* - and I remember when the vanilla (and burning crusade) dungeons were harder. One in particular was pretty punishing if you didn't have a good group. Cataclysm rolls around and I notice when leveling new characters that this same dungeon I remember getting slaughtered on is inordinately easy.

 

I found this both annoying and boring and more than any other time during my several years of playing, noticed a very lazy and lax attitude towards teamwork developing because of it. This was not helped any by the Dungeon Finder, which just gathered a group from across multiple servers and teleported them into a dungeon. This ended up with more ninjas and also people giving up if we wiped because very few people knew how to ghost walk back to the dungeon entrance.

 

I also remember when there was no LFG and you needed a good server reputation to get into groups. I also remember playing when people had to make an effort to find groups, get to the summoning stone and we would suffer through a a reasonable number of wipes to get our loot if it came to that. (I'm not saying this is ideal, I'm just saying that it didn't kill the game for me and it wasn't too hard.)

 

The problem with making the dungeons easier before Cataclysm was a huge difficulty spike when players hit the Cata dungeons. Players like me who were a bit casual in as much as, I don't raid. I'm fine with just doing heroics and normal dungeons. Stressing over raid strategy and tactics; not my thing.

 

I don't play WoW any more for a variety of reasons, from the casual/elitist conflict to how badly Blizzard was screwing with major characters, story and lore just so they could make more quests and content.

 

I think there should be a middle ground for this kind of thing. There should certainly be harder stuff for players who want the challenge and there should be things for people who play the game for reasons other than amazing gear and ranks, etc

Edited June 27, 2012 by InFamousHero

[FlippinFlapJack]

They ruin every MMO they come to. They whine and whine and want you to make everything easier but then complain about whatever you do, even if you accomplish what they wanted. You CANNOT sustain a sizable player base with a majority of casuals. They are the type of people who beat a game and then move on to the next. If you keep trying to please people who can't be pleased, nothing will work out.

 

One thing you have to remember is that casual players are really stupid and we often forget that all games are made for you and those you deem worthy. Seriously, how can you be mad at a bunch of people with such an obvious mental handicap.

 

We are very sorry to have thought that we could ever do anything at your level. Is it OK if we dream about being as great as you?

[InnerPieces]

... are like wham bam thank you maam and move on to the next game.

 

You just described the MMO industry as a whole. I used to live in the Wonderland of thinking games are produced for the customer rather than the money. Sure, there are people with their hearts in the right place, but if it were not for the love of money (not vision) these games would not exist. For those who make these games happen (producers, board executives, etc), this is nothing more than a business venture and will steer the development toward the quickest stack of cash they can get. This isn't meant to be derogatory toward anyone. It simply is what it is.

 

 

 

You also left WoW out of your example of successful MMOs which was, arguably, more successful than any of the MMOs you listed. Yet Blizzard is well known for catering to the lowest common denominator at every turn. They constantly set the PvP groups against the PvE groups by catering from one group to another, padded everything with fluff, packed the worlds with the same 20 creatures in different skins just to pound out more content (which was an issue with the Elites who constantly devour and instantly crave more content every moment of every day)...

 

This topic is so moot, it borders on the ridiculous. I feel my IQ dropping just reading it and prove it by responding.

 

I'm going to go scrub myself down with Ajax and a Brillo pad now. Excuse me.

[Sauska]

Seriously? After 15 years of MMO's, playing since the launch of EQ1, I would have to say it's the hardcore players of my acquaintance who are the wham bam thank you ma'am players. They purchase every "Next Big Thing" as soon as it's launched, burn through the content in a mad race to the endgame, whine endlessly about lack of endgame content, talk constantly about the "NEXT Next Big Thing" and how it will totally be the best thing in the history of games before it's even in beta and how it will COMPLETELY own the current game they're playing, leave as soon as said "NEXT Next Big Thing" is a) in beta if they get an invite, or b) is launched if they don't, then c) return to the game they dissed after burning through the new game's content when the old game releases a new content patch only to d) rinse and repeat.

 

The casual players of my acquaintance tend to stick with games longer because they don't like learning curves on new games and if they like a game at all, they will wait a while before trying something else. They're more likely to follow friends than they are gaming trends. As a case in point, I have a guild full of hardcore players who raced to 50 who are now off playing D3 and beta testing GW2, and waiting for us to tell them when 1.4 is out (1.3 has nothing much they are interested in, though they logged in to move their toons when we transferred), and a few close casual friends in my guild who are altaholics, two of whom have JUST in the past couple of weeks, gotten a toon to 50. They have not bought D3, do not intend to buy D3, nor are they playing G2, because they're still enjoying SWTOR and have plenty to do. I'm sure there are many exceptions to both our data, but your suppositions are defiinitely flawed.

This kind of response is every bit as elitist as hardcore gamers blaming casuals for ruining a game. Both types of gamers are bigots.

 

A successful MMO has a healthy mix of hardcore gamers and casuals, plus a third group of casual hardcore gamers. I belong to that third group myself, but every group has its own merits.

 

Hardcore gamers offer a fine measure for the difficulty level of a game. Developers can use their achievements to evaluate encounters, nerf or buff them in accordance with their goals. These gamers also often offer strategies and youtube vids for game encounters which the other 2 groups haven't even started on and which are a big help to the other 2 groups when they do start.

 

Casual gamers offer a fine measure for the content of a game. Developers can use their achievements to evaluate the current content, add to it or tweak it in accordance with their goals. These gamers often find hidden gems ingame, e.g. through exploration, that hardcore gamers completely overlook.

 

Casual hardcore gamers offer a fine measure for the viability of a game. Developers can use their achievements to evaluate both encounters and content at an overall level. These gamers both play through the current content, though maybe not as thoroughly as many casuals, and engage in encounters, though maybe not as die-hard as many hardcore gamers. Their findings offer reliable criteria for the suitability of the current content and the doability of encounters.

Edited June 27, 2012 by Sauska

[RangKer]

honestly both casuals and elties ruin all my games,

 

THEY ARE BOTH TO EXTREME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

but elties are like MAKE THIS IMPOSSIBLE TO GET SO I CAN BE A SPECIAL SNOWFLAKE!!!!!!!!

 

casuals are like I WANT INSTANT GRADIFICATION!!!!!!

 

Correction here, the "casuals" that you're claim here are not casuals, they are entitlist.

 

Casuals are the bread and butter / milk and honey for any and all gaming companies who want to build / running an MMO.

 

Elitist & Entitlists are and have been proven to always be the down fall and killers of MMOs with their pseudo style Neo Nazaism.

 

Casual will go about their daily real world life 6-8hours, enjoy time with family and play between 2-4hours a day, often teamed up with family or friends, in general part of a guild that a friend/co-worker/family member made who plays more often.

 

Granted yes, casuals do have their negative side to them as well, it is just the Elitists and Entitlists will always blame the less vocal group(s); the ones that are silently in the middle (The Casuals) for problems and bad playing, having a balanced mix of all three groups is needed, the Elitists or Entitlists; you will actually see more threads like this one appear, whiles ones demanding to punish others and gear and levels given to them for free because they refuse to do the work that someone else did; and both will point the blame at the Casual groups.

 

While both groups( Elitists / Entitlists ) will willingly and openly ignore/report, threaten/insult others who make any attempt to offer sound advise and debate to correct the problem(s).

The biggest thing people need to do is before they start blaming others for these "problems" is to look in the mirror; the propblem will usually start at ground zero: the complaintent - while the other groups have nothing to do with the issue at hand.

Edited June 27, 2012 by RangKer

[Letallis]

They ruin every MMO they come to. They whine and whine and want you to make everything easier but then complain about whatever you do, even if you accomplish what they wanted. You CANNOT sustain a sizable player base with a majority of casuals. They are the type of people who beat a game and then move on to the next. If you keep trying to please people who can't be pleased, nothing will work out.

 

Annnd you don't think what you're doing right here isn't whining?

[Letallis]

One thing you have to remember is that casual players are really stupid and we often forget that all games are made for you and those you deem worthy. Seriously, how can you be mad at a bunch of people with such an obvious mental handicap.

 

We are very sorry to have thought that we could ever do anything at your level. Is it OK if we dream about being as great as you?

 

I now have a new Hero..

[uniz]

the problem is your using casual in the wrong way, you sound like a guy in the middle,

 

casual basically = baddie who wants everything right away because he can't stand the thought of having to work for anything.

 

elitist = someone who will never play a game unless he can become a special snowflake in some way

 

actually your definitions of both are wrong

 

i would correct you but someone already did. besides this thread is doomed to get locked as nothing constructive is coming from it.

[Mistress_Ivi]

An MMO should pick a target auidience, and stick to it mostly. It's that simple.

 

SWG started off being close to what Korean MMO's would call "Normal" - they proceeded to make things easier, until the NGE hit... at first, many would argue it was a step too far.

 

When they finally removed Smed, Blixtev and someone in the middle of those two... the team developed a clear target and grew more and more; even in their dying months, the game improved with the introduction of systems that were previously thought impossible to implement into the engine, but they did it.

 

I don't, personally, agree with a system that plants any *required* gear into high end content, to me, high or highest end content is designed for one VERY simple thing - Fun. The challenge.

 

Anything, everything, should be fun loot. Looks great, applies unique effects that don't mess with stats or anything - for example, Elder Jedi in SWG could glow blue because they earned it... fluff content.

 

You cater to all, but provide for a niche at the same time.

 

Anything, everything, stat wise... cater to all, casual and elitist alike.

Fluff, you make people - anyone, casuals included, work for it... making the biggest, most fluffiest items (for example, amazing speeders... unique hats etc) looted in places only an organised and determined group of people can acquire.

 

If an Elitist is really an "elite" ... they don't need gear that makes it impossible for a casual to even try to fight them, they'll already have the skill and knowledge to do it... gear is a crutch, get of it.

 

Elites should be the ones in pink tophats and a thong, killing everyone... Casuals will hate it, the elitists can lol all the way to the 'bank'. (A messed up image, I apologise, but the point should get across).

[Receo]

They ruin every MMO they come to. They whine and whine and want you to make everything easier but then complain about whatever you do, even if you accomplish what they wanted. You CANNOT sustain a sizable player base with a majority of casuals. They are the type of people who beat a game and then move on to the next. If you keep trying to please people who can't be pleased, nothing will work out.

Well thats a bit hypocritical now isnt it?

[CaptRavenous]

They ruin every MMO they come to. They whine and whine and want you to make everything easier but then complain about whatever you do, even if you accomplish what they wanted. You CANNOT sustain a sizable player base with a majority of casuals. They are the type of people who beat a game and then move on to the next. If you keep trying to please people who can't be pleased, nothing will work out.

 

Lord of the Rings Online maintains a sizable casual player base, people who play once or twice a week. I'm sure there are other MMOs that maintain sizable bases of casual players.

 

Beside, hardcore players are just as notorious to please. I think what is really the problem, are the people who are the most vocal, are the people who just like to whine & complain about everything. I have a grandfather like that. He's not happy unless he's complaining about something. I've met many others like that.

 

What Bioware needs to do, is stop listening. All they are hearing are the whiners.

 

They need to ask the people who are playing, but not saying much. The players who have been playing from the beginning, but spend more time playing than posting on forums. Bioware could easily find such individuals in-game, and solicit their opinions on what needs to be fixed and changed about this game.

 

Or, they could keep being lazy, and let majority opinion here sway the game, back and forth, like a tall tree caught between two great winds.

 

I have no faith they will do anything different than other MMOs are doing these days. Let the most vocal audience dictate the course of the game's future.

 

The mob has spoken.