Sorc/Sage heals need to be returned to pre 1.2, other heals need buffs

[BurnsTwoThree]

taken from the sorc forums i think its a pretty good list of the sorcs contradictions

 

Nice find. There are plenty of people in this thread that will appreciate that post.

[fungihoujo]

So let's get rid of the double standard. If healers are only allowed to function when there's a tank around. Let's strip all those defensive CD's DPS have and make them rely on guard too. That way we can both be in the same crappy boat together.

 

DPS is king in this game right now. Healers can't heal enough to even try to keep up with one DPS on them. Except for Operatives, the one good healer left in the game.

 

P.S. I expect to see a nerf to Sent/Mara, PT/Van soon. All I see now in Warzones are these two classes. It's just silly how many lightsaber icons there are on that scoreboard.

 

This right here- if healers need to rely on tanks to survive, and it's a healers job to keep DPS living- then DPS need to lose all their defensive CDs so that they are exactly as reliant on having a healer always there, always healing them up as a healer is on having a tank there, always guarding them.

 

You won't see a DPS agree to that though because they expect to have solo ability because they find the game dull if they have to rely on others.

[fungihoujo]

Er...actually, it strongly favors the healers. For example, lets assume we have 3 zero-expertise characters. Character A is attacking Character B for 1000 DPS, and Character C is healing B for 1000 HPS (after all PvP modifiers are applied). If we increase all 3 to 1500 Expertise (26.56% damage, 20.99% DR, 14.77% trauma ignore), A will still be dealing 1000 DPS to B (1.2656 * (1 - 0.2099) = 1.0000), but C will instead be healing B for 1217.57 HPS, 22% more than A is dealing in DPS.

 

As you raise expertise, healing becomes more and more potent relative to DPS, simple as that.

 

If you removed the trauma debuff period- we wouldn't need expertise at all- that trauma debuff also means on top of the fact that healing already scales significantly more poorly, and healers get absolutely nothing to help with resource regen with better gear like they do in every other game (and the sorc healer resource regen is the worst concept for healing I have ever seen)- the debuff makes sure that healers will scale another 30% worse than other roles do.

[Oobob]

Er...actually, it strongly favors the healers. For example, lets assume we have 3 zero-expertise characters. Character A is attacking Character B for 1000 DPS, and Character C is healing B for 1000 HPS (after all PvP modifiers are applied). If we increase all 3 to 1500 Expertise (26.56% damage, 20.99% DR, 14.77% trauma ignore), A will still be dealing 1000 DPS to B (1.2656 * (1 - 0.2099) = 1.0000), but C will instead be healing B for 1217.57 HPS, 22% more than A is dealing in DPS.

 

As you raise expertise, healing becomes more and more potent relative to DPS, simple as that.

 

this ignores all the mechanics of each class, group pvp strategies, and playing a healer. it assumes A is attacking B and healer C is allowed to freecast on B, which is like a badge of a trash player in a trash group. when does a healer have no one on them? how often does a healer only have one person on them? how often should a skilled dps player go after the dps being healed and not the healer themselves?

 

against a good player who targets me, if i'm moving as a sorc healer all i can cast is my terrible resurgence hot that is entirely used to proc and bubble, and bubble doesn't scale with stats. and all my other heals require me to sit there and take more damage than i can heal with the possibility of being interrupted.

 

also, while the 1000 HPS number compared to 1000 DPS is almost completely made up on this basis alone, it's also true that the dps of one person chasing me is far higher than my heals, let alone two people. it ignores that when dps is on you, running is the best option, cause they do so much more damage and can shut you down with interrupts let alone cc. beyond even this trauma debuff makes healing crap in pvp and expertise scaling is far worse for healing.

 

so if we assume that a trash dps player is attacking another dps player and not the guy healing him, and the healer is allowed to freecast, and that completely made up healing numbers match dps numbers, and ignore expertise scaling and the fact some classes get 20% healing reduction, heals scale better than dps. literally every single assumption there is completely wrong and/or the sign of trash dps.

Edited July 4, 2012 by Oobob

[Saltydogg]

Do you really think it is any different for anyone else?

 

I'm a Sentinel. Usually the enemy team realizes this and makes me a priority target when I go after their healer. You don't know how many times I have done a Force Leap only to be stunned and dead before I could react. Everyone has that happen to them.

 

LOL yes it is. You want to know why? Because you have Mother Plucking Healer Tossing you heals. Oh thats right if we are one player why should be be special? You nuts dont even understand what it is to player a healer. You know why I play? Its to piss people off and to keep my team winning in Warzones. I have taken the most gimped *** healer in the game and turned it into a challenge. But that challenge is made harder by stupid comments on how one dps should be able to take out a healer no problem. What the hell is the point to even healing?

[Saltydogg]

Er...actually, it strongly favors the healers. For example, lets assume we have 3 zero-expertise characters. Character A is attacking Character B for 1000 DPS, and Character C is healing B for 1000 HPS (after all PvP modifiers are applied). If we increase all 3 to 1500 Expertise (26.56% damage, 20.99% DR, 14.77% trauma ignore), A will still be dealing 1000 DPS to B (1.2656 * (1 - 0.2099) = 1.0000), but C will instead be healing B for 1217.57 HPS, 22% more than A is dealing in DPS.

 

As you raise expertise, healing becomes more and more potent relative to DPS, simple as that.

 

I guess DAMAGE doesnt scale with Expertise????? So if you think things through healing remains nerfed hard. I will spell it out for you. Said healer now has 1300 expertise and said dps has 1300 expertise. Well there is still a incomming heal debuff so my heals are only hitting slightly harder. Meanwhile the DPS just increased his damage output 2 fold and has no damage debuff. So now my slightly better heals are actually worse now becuase the DPS just negated the heal and taking more life off the target due to the sick damage they can now put out.

 

I want you to tell me how a healer in ranked WZ's is capable of healing through a snipers full rotation. Its impossible. One full rotation is death unless you can LOS.

[Oobob]

LOL yes it is. You want to know why? Because you have Mother Plucking Healer Tossing you heals. Oh thats right if we are one player why should be be special? You nuts dont even understand what it is to player a healer. You know why I play? Its to piss people off and to keep my team winning in Warzones. I have taken the most gimped *** healer in the game and turned it into a challenge. But that challenge is made harder by stupid comments on how one dps should be able to take out a healer no problem. What the hell is the point to even healing?

 

i honestly think of pvp in star wars as smear the healz. why would anyone argue that healers should be constantly running away to survive for 9 seconds against one person instead of 6? how is this fun and not frustrating and stupid to play?

Edited July 4, 2012 by Oobob

[Elkirin]

Please do not turn the thread into "I hate insert class here".

 

I realise that some people are very obviously campaigning for the destruction of the game, or for the protection of their own pet class. This DOES NOT mean that all players of that class are haters hiding behind an ANON avatar.

 

The few irrational posters that post are entitled to an opinion just the same as any rational posters, for or against a topic. Please try to be tolerant, someone offical may read these forums one day.

 

I thank those people posting that actually care whether the game continues or not and look forward to reading more well thought out, non abusive posts.

[Larry_Dallas]

I don't know what to tell you if you think ops need more ways to get away. Ops are great at getting away and not from single targets either.

[Cempa]

I guess DAMAGE doesnt scale with Expertise????? So if you think things through healing remains nerfed hard. I will spell it out for you. Said healer now has 1300 expertise and said dps has 1300 expertise. Well there is still a incomming heal debuff so my heals are only hitting slightly harder. Meanwhile the DPS just increased his damage output 2 fold and has no damage debuff. So now my slightly better heals are actually worse now becuase the DPS just negated the heal and taking more life off the target due to the sick damage they can now put out.

 

I want you to tell me how a healer in ranked WZ's is capable of healing through a snipers full rotation. Its impossible. One full rotation is death unless you can LOS.

 

This guys is right and sounds like he actually plays the game!

 

But the issue is if the remove Trauma Operative healers will be immortal, at least it seems that way to me as they are the hardest healer to pin down due to the high mobility and healing on the go.

 

Sorcerer healers are a poorly done copy of WoW Discipline Priests. If they want a shield/bubble healer then they should do that. In any case the build needs a deep talent that is a defensive CD.

 

Affliction snare 2/2 is garbage tbh, the idea might be cool but it fails...Change that to a defensive CD.

Edited July 4, 2012 by Cempa

[SuperSair]

Damage is too over valued, Healing and Tanks are too under valued.

 

Time to kill is way too low, contradicting what BioWare had originally planned for PvP and Ranked Warzones have only magnified the issues. No amount of heals, taunts and guards and stop the amount of damage that some of these classes can put out together. Trauma, expertise/stat values and class balance all needs to be looked at before moving forward, in order to return to the long tactical battles that BioWare had originally planned for PvP.

 

The one thing this game had going for it at max level in the beginning was it's PvP was balanced and pretty entertaining, yet every patch seems to make it worse. I'm loosing faith here.

Edited July 4, 2012 by SuperSair

[BurnsTwoThree]

Affliction snare 2/2 is garbage tbh, the idea might be cool but it fails...Change that to a defensive CD.

 

It should be the Force Speed change that I was talking about earlier. It would make the talent go from near uselessness while getting hit to actually having some use.

 

The one thing this game had going for it at max level was it's PvP was balanced and pretty entertaining, yet every patch seems to make it worse. I'm loosing faith here.

Pretty much anyone who is any good feels the same way. A lot already left because of it.

 

I myself came back because of the possibility of 1.3 class changes and the release of rated WZs. Every week I'm seeing patches that lack anything to do with actual PvP.

Edited July 4, 2012 by BurnsTwoThree

[spaace]

Left alone a sage can keep up to the other healers, but its hard at times.

 

Harassed, we just fold. I can kite bad players all day, but it's when you get 2 good players, then it's stun, snare, dead..

 

But realistically, even if we went back to pre 1.2 sage, it doesn't change our incoming.. just outgoing.. the main problem is the incoming.

[BurnsTwoThree]

Left alone a sage can keep up to the other healers, but its hard at times.

 

Harassed, we just fold. I can kite bad players all day, but it's when you get 2 good players, then it's stun, snare, dead..

 

But realistically, even if we went back to pre 1.2 sage, it doesn't change our incoming.. just outgoing.. the main problem is the incoming.

 

I wouldn't call it a main problem, it's more just half of the whole issue. The other half is our class mechanics and how it is not viable for the amount of CC/Interrupts in this game. We need to actually cast things and for our numbers to be able to be on the same level as damage, not drastically lower.

[dalin]

To make it simple for the non healers to understand the problem. Once upon a time (pre 1.2) we used to use our HoT to proc a quick big heal. This lead us to being mobile when needed and allowed us to heal affectively. However, a bug with this mechanic (double dipping) lead the devs to scrap it all together. Problem is, they forgot we were balanced around this concept for healing in PvP. Now we are easily killable, due to no burst healing, lack of mobile heals, and DPS being buffed each patch. To even have a chance we must spec about 17 or so points into lightning, to survive at all.

 

That's it in a nutshell. WTB revamp or just plain old buffs. Not looking to be OP or tank 4 DPS. We just want to be able to function in PvP against one DPS and run when it's 2 or more.

[Cempa]

Game designers need to re assess the subjective bit for the AC healing and DPS. Many top notch gamers and theory crafters have been making suggestions for months!

 

BW will never do it but revert everything to pre 1.2 and start over!

[BurnsTwoThree]

Game designers need to re assess the subjective bit for the AC healing and DPS. Many top notch gamers and theory crafters have been making suggestions for months!

 

BW will never do it but revert everything to pre 1.2 and start over!

 

How about simply fixing the original mechanic that gave us two Quick large heals and go from there?

 

They said it was going to be fixed way back when but instead of actually fixing it they just took it away. I can only imagine a room full of people and some guy coming up with that dumb idea and all of the Devs sitting around smiling as if it was the best idea any of them ever came up with.

[fungihoujo]

As long as damage scales considerably better than healing- every patch with new gear is like a bonus nerf for free.

 

As Walsh himself said- the reason trauma is there is because in pve healers are healing against massive hits from bosses.... but where BW failed is that they forgot to include trauma for DPSers that reduces 30% of their damage too- after all, if you're going to use the argument that a healer in pve has to deal with large hits from bosses (which are no larger than many players can hit now anyway), DPS need the debuff too because in pvp they're hitting enemies with 18k health... while in pve they're dealing damage to mobs with millions of hp.

 

Not hard to see a DPS that is meant to kill something with that much health will tear through someone with 1% of the hp...

 

But, instead of a debuff to the ever increasing DPS- they instead get a large damage increase in pvp.

[BurnsTwoThree]

As long as damage scales considerably better than healing- every patch with new gear is like a bonus nerf for free.

 

As Walsh himself said- the reason trauma is there is because in pve healers are healing against massive hits from bosses.... but where BW failed is that they forgot to include trauma for DPSers that reduces 30% of their damage too- after all, if you're going to use the argument that a healer in pve has to deal with large hits from bosses (which are no larger than many players can hit now anyway), DPS need the debuff too because in pvp they're hitting enemies with 18k health... while in pve they're dealing damage to mobs with millions of hp.

 

Not hard to see a DPS that is meant to kill something with that much health will tear through someone with 1% of the hp...

 

But, instead of a debuff to the ever increasing DPS- they instead get a large damage increase in pvp.

 

Then why not give players more Endurance on gear and not have Trauma period?

[spaace]

Then why not give players more Endurance on gear and not have Trauma period?

 

 

In PVP, DPS hit harder then PVE.

How is giving people more HP going to fix the healing problem? That's far from the solution.

 

Back when everyone was 16-18k hp it was sweet... now seeing tanks with 24k hp in PVP gear just blows (especially since recruit gear is only 12k)

Edited July 4, 2012 by spaace

[Cooperal]

I don't think the OP has tried a ranked match. Not even versus a pug-composed premade. Or he was on that said premade.

[Jakev-]

First step would to be removing Trauma. Then if its still too bad.. go from there..

I have 2 healers a sorcerer and a operative... I also had a Commando healer but respeced dps due to 1.2 nerfs

One sentinel finds me I'm locked out of everything. dead and.... Yeah.... but because sentinels are the FOTM theres usually 2 to 3 on the other team.

Edited July 4, 2012 by Jakev-

[BurnsTwoThree]

I don't think the OP has tried a ranked match. Not even versus a pug-composed premade. Or he was on that said premade.

 

Nope, have done plenty already. Also I wouldn't have re-subbed if Ranked PvP wasn't implemented.

 

No need for the butthurt in this topic sir. Not every topic pointing out where things are going wrong has ****-tier bads in it. Move along.

 

First step would to be removing Trauma. Then if its still too bad.. go from there..

I have 2 healers a sorcerer and a operative... I also had a Commando healer but respeced dps due to 1.2 nerfs

One sentinel finds me I'm locked out of everything. dead and.... Yeah.... but because sentinels are the FOTM theres usually 2 to 3 on the other team.

 

Wouldn't really fix the whole turret healing situation with slow ineffective casts.

 

 

Who's ready for another patch tonight without anything done to the game except for the servers!?

Edited July 4, 2012 by BurnsTwoThree

[Geglad]

Quick comments - this thread was about Sorc/Sages in particular, and healers in general needing a buff to my understanding. Not just healers in general. But lets sally forth nonetheless.

 

I think the flaw of your argument is that you consider that somehow healing needs to be balanced with dps in terms of a healer beeing as good a team spot as a dps, this argument has a ton of implications that simply dont hold weight in the game.

 

The arguments hold weight, but the mechanics dont support it, especially in relation to Sorcerors/Sages. That ton of weight is full of justified desires for maximum choice in game. Thus the decision by many to choose to unsubscribe. Granted, its not as bad as many have made it out to be, but it does say something, beyond a random complaint of unsuitability in style, doesnt it?

 

The game tries to be balanced around the presence of an exact player ration, 2 tanks 4 dps 2 healers. Most forum discussion is done (incorrectly in the context of the game but i personally love this kind of discussions also ) assuming a simple field of battle were ppl fight over, the movement between objectives and the ratio of respwn to travel to fight time means nothing to most ppl.

 

Sounds amazingly like a typical PuG Wz no?

 

However back on balance, in order for the game to be balanced around the setup it needs to force the setup on you, so stacking anything extremely away from the indicated numbers needs to be detrimental (for example 6 dps 2 healers, or 4 healers 4 tanks) Thus we should analyse and perceive the team as two parts: offense (dps and to an extend tanks) and defence (healers and to an extend tanks) tanks contribute to both teams. Thus in order for a person to stay alive both a healer and a tank need to contribute, that would hold pretty much the same for damage as tends to be evident in the game, in order for 1 person to go down two need to contribute but this isnt so prevalent since the damage dealers are twice the number of the other archetypes.

 

Since the game is forcing a composition, I would ask, why that dps is so preferred? More simple? Less Skill? Or because of necessary codependence? Is that choice? And does that mean that two dps should stalemate a tank and healer combination, win, or lose?

 

Allthough i understand the above is a gross outline and doesnt begin to touch the reality of all the situation what needs to be said is THIS IS NOT WOW, here keeping ppl alive in PVP is not about the Healer its the combined effort of a TANK (yes because tanking exists in pvp!) and a healer.

 

I am grateful it isnt WoW. But this is a tired argument, and its use is disingenuious to those who are truly looking to maximize the choice this game offers. For my own end, I am more concerned with the fun of it. I prefer chess when I want to PvP. Sometimes a bit of sparring, verbal or otherwise. Like this argument here.

 

If you take the recommended survivability increase the original poster asks for and add a tank in the mix you make for a pvp that nobody dies except from knockbacks and pits or stray small skirmish like 1v1 matches at wierd map positions (any1 who has played 1.1.5 pvp has a voidstar experience with less than 15 deaths in both teams).

 

Agreed. Limiting choice again - not a fan of that myself.

 

People who actually appreciate swtor pvp, not because its perfect but because it has an additional tier of tactical and strategical complexity (that is the pvp tanking) dont wont it to return to the 1.2 state, no matter how frustrating it is for a solo healer.

 

Strategical complexity? It may be argued that in a Premade,with proper organization, that your Ops Lead has a vision of the strategic landscape. Maybe, and thats thin. Hitting a button on a keyboard is not strategic complexity. Looking forward 3-4 moves in chess is just TACTICAL complexity. And tanking pvp in this game doesnt not begin to touch that tactical complexity. I shouldnt have to bother explaining the strategic and tactical complexity of a good fight match up and its required conditioning, research, practice and skill switches. I understand the underlying concept you are trying to express. But, being a Sorc/Sage and relying on a tank to press that one button at the start of the WZ and then another off cd, maybe the AOE version as well awhiles, is not strategic complexity. Its dependence. Call it what it is for all to see. Besides, isnt it making that tanker choose something as well? Lets give those tankers some choice too hmm?

 

 

I guess if i wanted to add a tl;dr is, if they buff the healers they need to remove pvp taunt and guard from the game in order for it to be playable, and that isnt the right thing to do, so please evolve, find ppl who want to do pvp tanking and learn to play with them, teach and learn from them.

 

You may be right that it isnt the right this to do. Perhaps this is the basic framework of the game; a limiting set of baseline builds largely codependent, unable to function without assistance in a group format. Normally the idea would work for me, although the choice limitations irk me a bit. It is an MMO. But between the heavy codependence of the Tank-Heals Combination, the lack of proper resource management in short and long term cds, defensive or otherwise with the Sorc/Sages specifically, and the scaling issues with heals and expertise in general, a little tuning may be order. Wasnt that the pupose to this thread?

 

 

 

 

Italics mine.

 

-Lad

Edited July 6, 2012 by Geglad

[Cooperal]

Nope, have done plenty already. Also I wouldn't have re-subbed if Ranked PvP wasn't implemented.

 

No need for the butthurt in this topic sir. Not every topic pointing out where things are going wrong has ****-tier bads in it. Move along.

 

Weakest definition of butthurt I've ever witnessed. Name calling and swearing just flips the accusation back in your face. Skip along back to 4chan young grasshopper.