Just stop with the stupidity please

[Gamago]

Well as others have said, you picked a HYBRID class. that means that you can play more than 1 spec and you will play that well, but you will never excel at any of them (You are more a jack of all trades). Not it the way a pure DPS would. you have the option to switch over to "tank mode" where you elevate your survivability, doesn't matter if it is a inefficient use or force or not. I play both a marauder and an assassin at the moment and all I can say is that, the play styles are very different, where the marauder charges in and smacks his foes brains out and finish in a few seconds or so, the assassin controls the situation and dominates his opponent(s).

 

What I think you need to do, is sit down and learn what a hybrid class is and then learn how to play it. and if you cant do that, I suggest rerolling a marauder to get the type of gameplay you want. pure DPS classes in an RPG should and will always outdamage their hybrid brethren but where the pure DPS classes do alot of damage the hybrid should expect a little longer fights where he controls his opponent by dominating him in a way that the DPS cant use their abilities properly. This mostly applies to PvP but in PvE you have the ability to off-tank/off-heal depending on class, a pure DPS class does not have this option instead they get to do more damage to be able to save themselves by killing the opponent. I know numerous OPS and flashpoints where I have had guildies who are hybrid specs step in and fill a off-role for a few seconds which either let us clear the content we were up against or let the healer/tanks recuperate. Sadly this is a case where the OP is not really getting how the class he chose, works.

 

Bottom line is: Pure DPS will always outdamage hybrids as hybrids have more survivability if played correctly.

Edited July 9, 2012 by Gamago

[pureeffinmetal]

Bottom line is: Pure DPS will always outdamage hybrids as hybrids have more survivability if played correctly.

 

This is incorrect as Snipers and Marauders have some of hte best defensive cooldowns in game.

 

They also bring alot of utility in Bloodthirst, AoE Shield, etc.

[Trephination]

I agree with the OP's root argument, but the way it's being presented is way too close to a temper tantrum.

 

The way the SWTOR class system is set up, balance between classes is achieved when they are all equally valuable for PvE / PvP. Perfect balance is a myth, but we'll go with that anyway.

 

All DPS should have the same overall potential, but it should not be achieved by making snipers and marauders do 5-10% more damage than the other classes in all situations. Instead, the increased spec flexibility a sniper and marauder has as a DPS role should allow them to excel at more encounters. For example, because a marauder has a spec for single target burst, sustain, and AoE, the class can be a great DPS in any situation. Given perfect balance, an assassin should be equally valuable in 2 of those roles, but not the third.

 

The problem, though? The way abilities are linked to classes in SWTOR is largely not spec-dependent. This means that certain abilities we all know as "class-defining" at this point are available to any spec within a class when they really shouldn't be--from a balance perspective. Let's not try and deny the usefulness of "off-spec" abilities, either. The ability to taunt or off-heal as a DPS is incredibly valuable, both in PvE and PvP. These things can make a huge difference occasionally.

 

Should a glass-cannon assassin really be able to AoE taunt the 3 players piling up on his healer, effectively adding 30% mitigation? Should a DPS sorc be able to bubble his teammate at almost full strength of his healing counterpart? Should DPS-specced Powertechs have grapple, or is that traditionally a unique tanking ability?

 

This is where balance in SWTOR gets complicated. At least, definitely more complicated than the OP implies. I don't think the level of balance you're hoping for is achievable here, but maybe I'm wrong.

[GrantyJPS]

You cannot and will not ever do the same dps as a gunslinger/sent/sniper/mara if you are an AC that is a hybrid.

 

If that evar happens and i mean evar then i in return demand guard,taunts and heals. in fact i demand that now, lets go to my new thread guys!

 

END THIS MADNESS!1 RAWR

GIVE MARA'S MORE HEALS AND TAUNTZ!

 

As a dps commando, I never outheal mara/sents passive healing even if I actually bother to waste lots of time and ammo casting my pitiful heals.

 

Ive seen MANY mara/sent scoreboards with 600k damage and 100k+ heals

You also have better def CDs than a tank anyway

[Marak]

Maras/Snipers aside... that's going to be a divisive issue that no one is going to agree on.

 

The problem is balancing everyone else. Currently both operative DPS specs are absolutely atrocious in a PvE setting. Deception Assassins are also pretty awful in a PvE setting. PTs, Mercs, Sorcs, and Juggs are all pretty much right in line with each other right now at about 10% less than Maras and 5% less than Snipers. Ops are like 25% behind.

 

Honestly the way classes are set up now there is no reason to not stack snipers and maras and bring a jugg tank for sunders.. I understand that in practice people don't like to do this because of the gearing issue, but that's not an argument for balance.

 

Having healing abilities or taunts or whatever doesn't mean it's viable utility. A DPS operative can heal 3-4 times before energy becomes a serious problem and having a long cast time means there is absolutely no incentive to do so. It would be different if we were talking about cheap, instant cast heals. Then we would be talking about practical utility. That's just not the case currently.

[darthtrunkmonkey]

stop complaining and do what GOD intended you to do...DPS.

 

stop wasting valuable forum space

[WaldoA]

If all classes done the same damage, I'm pretty sure everyone would drop their class for operatives/assassins because they get stealth, every class is different for a reason....

[Kanjir]

If all classes done the same damage, I'm pretty sure everyone would drop their class for operatives/assassins because they get stealth, every class is different for a reason....

 

***? Pretty sure they wouldn't. Every class/spec has its own speciality. Just because I want to DPS doesn't mean I should have to go with a pure DPS class. Yes, they get 3 trees OF DPS TALENTS to make up for the fact they don't have a heal/tank tree. Maybe I don't like the fact mara's have two lightsabers? I roll a jugg - how is it fair im penalised because I want to dps on a melee class with one lightsaber instead of two?

 

Sorry but your argument is invalid. It doesn't take much to realise this. I don't see what the problem in having all classes equal in dps is anyway. I'd just like the whole mindset that melee is too hard to bring to a raid to go away. The whole point was to make choices not based on what the better class was, but to have it balanced.

[Petnil]

ofc all dps specs should do fairly even dps. if not why would you have anything exept gunslingers and sentinels as dps in an operation. Dont be so obsessed about numbers. play the class to the max and the chances are you will be top dps whatever class you play(if your specced for dps ofc)

play a class poorly and you will never be top dps nomatter what class you play.

if a tank dies and i have to take over for 20sec or so i probably will have more of a chance of making it as sentinel than as guardian. still i dont complain over the nice sentinel cooldowns.

i dont pvp so i cant realy comment on that aspect of the game, but for pvp, if you spec dps you should be about even with anyone else who spec dps, regardless of class.

[Altheran]

At first sight it seems right that all DPS spec should do the same amount of damage but in fact it shouldn't.

 

If we take in exemple a tank speccable DPS, he has taunts and he can use them freely and off-GCD. So he can protect people while doing the same amount of damage than every other DPS. As a result, he will outperform a pure DPS advanced class.

[Marak]

At first sight it seems right that all DPS spec should do the same amount of damage but in fact it shouldn't.

 

If we take in exemple a tank speccable DPS, he has taunts and he can use them freely and off-GCD. So he can protect people while doing the same amount of damage than every other DPS. As a result, he will outperform a pure DPS advanced class.

 

If we're talking about PvE, which I believe we all are, this is the worst thing I've ever read. Any guardian/shadow/vanguard DPS that is taunting is likely getting himself killed and wiping the raid.

 

If we are talking about PvP, yes they can taunt off cooldown. Stick the damage reduction aspect of taunt to the tanking stance of the class and this becomes a non-issue without screwing over PvE class balance.

[Altheran]

If we're talking about PvE, which I believe we all are, this is the worst thing I've ever read. Any guardian/shadow/vanguard DPS that is taunting is likely getting himself killed and wiping the raid.

 

If we are talking about PvP, yes they can taunt off cooldown. Stick the damage reduction aspect of taunt to the tanking stance of the class and this becomes a non-issue without screwing over PvE class balance.

 

Yeah, I had a pvp point of view.

If taunts get restricted to tank stance, then I fully agree, balance would be respected as much in PvE as in PvP.

[Bobbyieboy]

If we're talking about PvE, which I believe we all are, this is the worst thing I've ever read. Any guardian/shadow/vanguard DPS that is taunting is likely getting himself killed and wiping the raid.

 

If we are talking about PvP, yes they can taunt off cooldown. Stick the damage reduction aspect of taunt to the tanking stance of the class and this becomes a non-issue without screwing over PvE class balance.

 

Even in PVE this is a bit wrong. If i do a quick change to Ion Cell on my trooper and taunt off a healer in a raid i can stay alive long then then healer and i'm easier for the healer to heal them to heal themselves. Not only does this give the tank more time to pull the mob but it greatly reduces the chance of anyone much less a healer dieing in the group. If all damage was balanced then i would be taken more then a pure dps for the small amount of extra utility that i would bring. This is a example as well as why all can't be balanced on dps numbers. If we are why bring someone that can only dps at all if you can get a bunch of Tanks and healers dps just the same with added survivability?

[Marak]

Even in PVE this is a bit wrong. If i do a quick change to Ion Cell on my trooper and taunt off a healer in a raid i can stay alive long then then healer and i'm easier for the healer to heal them to heal themselves. Not only does this give the tank more time to pull the mob but it greatly reduces the chance of anyone much less a healer dieing in the group. If all damage was balanced then i would be taken more then a pure dps for the small amount of extra utility that i would bring. This is a example as well as why all can't be balanced on dps numbers. If we are why bring someone that can only dps at all if you can get a bunch of Tanks and healers dps just the same with added survivability?

 

If you think you can tank a HM/NM boss just by switching to tank stance you crazy. And the amount of times that this happens regardless of the outcome is SO SMALL that for it to be considered utility is laughable at best. And the reason this is so small is because people generally realize how bad of an idea it is to try this. Not to mention it takes troopers a few seconds to cast their tank stance and it takes shadows a full force bar. For this to happen in the heat of the moment in time for you to "save" someone is simply not reality.

Edited July 13, 2012 by Marak

[NyanC]

Well, as someone else said, each class has its own + and - . So, maybe dps only has dps, while tanks and healing have dps. But, dps is SPECIALIZED for dps, making it the best at dealing damage.

[Bobbyieboy]

If you think you can tank a HM/NM boss just by switching to tank stance you crazy. And the amount of times that this happens regardless of the outcome is SO SMALL that for it to be considered utility is laughable at best. And the reason this is so small is because people generally realize how bad of an idea it is to try this. Not to mention it takes troopers a few seconds to cast their tank stance and it takes shadows a full force bar. For this to happen in the heat of the moment in time for you to "save" someone is simply not reality.

 

I'm pretty sure everyone else had realized this except you. I was referring to trash mobs. I thought that was kinda a given i guess it needed to be explained. Plus FYI, Ion Cell is not tank stance. The class does not have "stances". Trash that can easily kill a heal would not do the same to a Vanguard dps that does this and allow everyone in the raid to stay alive. This only takes 1.5 seconds as well. This is done has been done. I have done it and seen it done. The only thing laughable is the overall lack of understanding I'm seeing here.

[Marak]

I'm pretty sure everyone else had realized this except you. I was referring to trash mobs. I thought that was kinda a given i guess it needed to be explained. Plus FYI, Ion Cell is not tank stance. The class does not have "stances". Trash that can easily kill a heal would not do the same to a Vanguard dps that does this and allow everyone in the raid to stay alive. This only takes 1.5 seconds as well. This is done has been done. I have done it and seen it done. The only thing laughable is the overall lack of understanding I'm seeing here.

 

So we're balancing around trash packs now?

 

DPS only matters on boss fights. Ergo, class utility that only matters on boss fights is the only utility worth balancing a class around.

 

....trash packs. >.>

[Bobbyieboy]

So we're balancing around trash packs now?

 

DPS only matters on boss fights. Ergo, class utility that only matters on boss fights is the only utility worth balancing a class around.

 

....trash packs. >.>

 

It's all part of the operation so it all has to be considered. No point in having a perfect setup for a boss if you can't get to it.

[erei]

Sorry, but if all classes gained the same numbers, it would make a players choice of character purely based on how they look and nothing more.

And it's supposed to be a bad thing ? Can't we choose a class over an another because we want to use a ligthsaber/a cannon/whatever, or have a specific gameplay (cover system, stealth...) ? I'm sorry, but I want to play what I like, and be competitive with everyone else.

 

It's all part of the operation so it all has to be considered. No point in having a perfect setup for a boss if you can't get to it.

If you have a perfect setup for a boss, you probably have a perfect setup for trashs to. But if you have a perfect setup for trash, you may fail on bosses.

[Bobbyieboy]

If you have a perfect setup for a boss, you probably have a perfect setup for trashs to. But if you have a perfect setup for trash, you may fail on bosses.

 

All i was saying is everything has to be considered. The other people was basing everything on the boss fight and i just noted you have to look at everything.

[Marak]

All i was saying is everything has to be considered. The other people was basing everything on the boss fight and i just noted you have to look at everything.

 

No dev in their right mind balances a game around trash. I'm sorry.

Edited July 14, 2012 by Marak

[NoTomorrow]

What I just said flew over your head dude. I am saying that the numbers need to all be the same. I don't care if I can stealth. Stealth doesn't help my numbers at all.

 

So you are just one of those dudes that salivates at the sight of score screens? Invisibility as in credible powerful tool at achieving mission objectives. It has so many uses that i don't even know where to start.

 

And even if you are just for the kills, being able to attack at the worst possible moment for your enemy is an big enough advantage alone.

 

Shinarika builds are over there --->

[Wonkadude]

...And I stopped reading after the bolded part.

 

Look dude, it's a simple concept. As a hybrid, you have the OPTION to DPS or TANK based on what spec you choose. PURE DPS classes don't have that option, period, case closed, end of story.

 

We have ONE ROLE with all 3 specs; DPS. The Assassin "can" fill TWO roles with ONE class dependant on what spec they choose. Just because you choose not to use both roles doesn't mean you should be equal to a class who doesn't have an option.

 

Furthermore, you're getting way too wrapped around the axle on class names. A marauder; in the literal sense, is a rogue bandit with no loyalties. A Sentinel; is a guardian or man at arms standing a post. To put it simply, class names don't mean squat when discribing roles in this game.

THIS!

Lets put it THIS way.

Any class that can heal/dps can help out a healer by healing themselves, a class that can tank has better survivability. My GS has neither, so he NEEDS to make up for that in what he can ONLY DO, which is DPS.

also as stated b4, a competent player will own an incopetent one any day

[vojinsa]

THIS!

Lets put it THIS way.

Any class that can heal/dps can help out a healer by healing themselves, a class that can tank has better survivability. My GS has neither, so he NEEDS to make up for that in what he can ONLY DO, which is DPS.

also as stated b4, a competent player will own an incopetent one any day

 

 

understood

[Starrhawk]

THIS!

Lets put it THIS way.

Any class that can heal/dps can help out a healer by healing themselves, a class that can tank has better survivability. My GS has neither, so he NEEDS to make up for that in what he can ONLY DO, which is DPS.

also as stated b4, a competent player will own an incopetent one any day

 

I also play a GS and completely disagree with your statement, someone specced into DPS has one job, to DPS, what else they are capable of is irrelevant. All DPS specs regardless of class should be able to put up similar numbers DPS wise.

Classes that can tank but are specced into DPS don't have the survivability of a Sentinel which is pure DPS so that theory goes out the window.

As for healers who are specced DPS their heals are minimal and if they do decide to use them to help out the main healer they take a severe hit to their DPS.