Requesting Post 1.3 Hybrid PvP/PvE Tank Build

[DarthBandeth]

Hey all,

 

I am indeed aware it is still patch day, but I thought I'd chime in on what I'm looking for.

 

As you are all aware, Immortal 31 Jugg tanks got a big damage nerf in patch 1.3 I'm looking for a hybrid build that allows me to still do good damage in PvP but still be viable to tank in PvP and PvE . I have seen Hybrid builds that have been labeled as good for PvP, but none that fill out the PvP/PvE requirement (from what I've seen at least). Would appreciate a response.

 

-Bandeth

[masterbryo]

+1

I would also like to see a hybrid spec. PvP or PvE

[Craxim]

Hey all,

 

I am indeed aware it is still patch day, but I thought I'd chime in on what I'm looking for.

 

As you are all aware, Immortal 31 Jugg tanks got a big damage nerf in patch 1.3 I'm looking for a hybrid build that allows me to still do good damage in PvP but still be viable to tank in PvP and PvE . I have seen Hybrid builds that have been labeled as good for PvP, but none that fill out the PvP/PvE requirement (from what I've seen at least). Would appreciate a response.

 

-Bandeth

 

Hybrid in PvE is no longer as viable due to the changes to Immortal. The damage nerf wasn't THAT big. I say that based on seeing my parses today in 16 man HM EC.

[DarthBandeth]

Hybrid in PvE is no longer as viable due to the changes to Immortal. The damage nerf wasn't THAT big. I say that based on seeing my parses today in 16 man HM EC.

 

It's quite large in PvP my friend, and I know you don't PvP. I was looking for a best of both world specs, and if what you say is true about PvE, I am sad.

 

The only thing that will fix this is dual spec then.

[froops]

I think that Craxim shouldn't be saying that a hybrid tanking spec is not viable at all but rather that it may no longer be the best PvE tanking spec due to the new changes in 1.3.

 

I would say that it definitely is still viable and I don't see why you wouldn't be able to take a hybrid spec into any PvE environment and still hold your own providing you have the skills and the right gear.

 

The following is my preferred hybrid Immortal/Vengeance build.

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#101hMGzuzZZfMrorhdzM.1

 

The points distribution is completely unchanged from my 1.2 build and other than the changes to Blade Barricade and Single Saber Master it remains exactly the same.

 

I think that if you are planning on doing both PvE and PvP with the same spec then this is the best hybrid spec. It will give you the best balance of mitigation and damage output possible from a hybrid build as well as great flexibility to play how you want for any given situation.

 

Some people might choose to get Sonic Barrier, but I believe that the passive and active mitigation from Deafening Defense and the guaranteed FS and VT crits from Savagery are necessary for PvP and PvE damage and tanking and a far better alternative to ~800 damage absorption every 12 seconds.

 

Others may swear by Intimidation (free Chilling Scream) for PvP, but I think getting it is too great a comprimise against damage mitigation and damage output from Retaliation. Also, I think that you'll find in both PvE and PvP, you're going to find yourself getting much more benefit from having a 1 rage cost Retaliation vs a free Chilling Scream. Less rage issues, better damage, better threat, better mitigation.

 

Feel free to provide any feedback.

[Musclemary]

I think that Craxim shouldn't be saying that a hybrid tanking spec is not viable at all but rather that it may no longer be the best PvE tanking spec due to the new changes in 1.3.

 

I would say that it definitely is still viable and I don't see why you wouldn't be able to take a hybrid spec into any PvE environment and still hold your own providing you have the skills and the right gear.

 

The following is my preferred hybrid Immortal/Vengeance build.

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#101hMGzuzZZfMrorhdzM.1

 

The points distribution is completely unchanged from my 1.2 build and other than the changes to Blade Barricade and Single Saber Master it remains exactly the same.

 

I think that if you are planning on doing both PvE and PvP with the same spec then this is the best hybrid spec. It will give you the best balance of mitigation and damage output possible from a hybrid build as well as great flexibility to play how you want for any given situation.

 

Some people might choose to get Sonic Barrier, but I believe that the passive and active mitigation from Deafening Defense and the guaranteed FS and VT crits from Savagery are necessary for PvP and PvE damage and tanking and a far better alternative to ~800 damage absorption every 12 seconds.

 

Others may swear by Intimidation (free Chilling Scream) for PvP, but I think getting it is too great a comprimise against damage mitigation and damage output from Retaliation. Also, I think that you'll find in both PvE and PvP, you're going to find yourself getting much more benefit from having a 1 rage cost Retaliation vs a free Chilling Scream. Less rage issues, better damage, better threat, better mitigation.

 

Feel free to provide any feedback.

 

That looks like an interesting build..Would you change it much if you wanted to purely tank for PVE HM OPS? Can someone upload a post 1.3 Pure Jugg Tank PVE Build pls? I'd really appreciate it.

[DarthBandeth]

I think that Craxim shouldn't be saying that a hybrid tanking spec is not viable at all but rather that it may no longer be the best PvE tanking spec due to the new changes in 1.3.

 

I would say that it definitely is still viable and I don't see why you wouldn't be able to take a hybrid spec into any PvE environment and still hold your own providing you have the skills and the right gear.

 

The following is my preferred hybrid Immortal/Vengeance build.

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#101hMGzuzZZfMrorhdzM.1

 

The points distribution is completely unchanged from my 1.2 build and other than the changes to Blade Barricade and Single Saber Master it remains exactly the same.

 

I think that if you are planning on doing both PvE and PvP with the same spec then this is the best hybrid spec. It will give you the best balance of mitigation and damage output possible from a hybrid build as well as great flexibility to play how you want for any given situation.

 

Some people might choose to get Sonic Barrier, but I believe that the passive and active mitigation from Deafening Defense and the guaranteed FS and VT crits from Savagery are necessary for PvP and PvE damage and tanking and a far better alternative to ~800 damage absorption every 12 seconds.

 

Others may swear by Intimidation (free Chilling Scream) for PvP, but I think getting it is too great a comprimise against damage mitigation and damage output from Retaliation. Also, I think that you'll find in both PvE and PvP, you're going to find yourself getting much more benefit from having a 1 rage cost Retaliation vs a free Chilling Scream. Less rage issues, better damage, better threat, better mitigation.

 

Feel free to provide any feedback.

 

Looks like a solid build. Currently for PvP I'm in BM/War Hero War Leader Gear. Will that be a problem with this spec, and/or should I start gearing toward Vindicator?

 

Also, I'm in mostly columi with a bit of rakata Gear, same question as above.

Edited June 27, 2012 by DarthBandeth

[froops]

Looks like a solid build. Currently for PvP I'm in BM/War Hero War Leader Gear. Will that be a problem with this spec, and/or should I start gearing toward Vindicator?

 

Also, I'm in mostly columi with a bit of rakata Gear, same question as above.

 

It depends. I personally am more DPS than I am tank but I do do both. I have only the PvP Vindicator's set because I mostly run a deep Vengeance build.

 

If I am required to tank in PvE I respec to the build I posted above. I have quite a decent set of PvE tanking gear (Rakata/Columi/BH Implants and ear) that I always carry around with me.

 

With this build it is quite flexible. You can PvP tank whilst doing respectable damage, stance dance to Shien Form if you're not guarding a node or running the huttball and need to take out those targets quickly and you will be able to MT and OT in HM Ops as well as put out some decent DPS in those fights where you're not required to tank. However if you are entering an Op as a DPS position, especially an HM Op, you are still much better off going deep Vengeance and picking up the Vindicator sets.

 

In the end, the build above is definitely more geared towards PvE and PvP tanking rather than DPS. It won't replace the deep Immortal/Vengeance/Rage builds in their respective specialities, but it's a good and definitely viable compromise for if you want to tank and/or spank effectively in both PvE and PvP.

[DarthBandeth]

It depends. I personally am more DPS than I am tank but I do do both. I have only the PvP Vindicator's set because I mostly run a deep Vengeance build.

 

If I am required to tank in PvE I respec to the build I posted above. I have quite a decent set of PvE tanking gear (Rakata/Columi/BH Implants and ear) that I always carry around with me.

 

With this build it is quite flexible. You can PvP tank whilst doing respectable damage, stance dance to Shien Form if you're not guarding a node or running the huttball and need to take out those targets quickly and you will be able to MT and OT in HM Ops as well as put out some decent DPS in those fights where you're not required to tank. However if you are entering an Op as a DPS position, especially an HM Op, you are still much better off going deep Vengeance and picking up the Vindicator sets.

 

In the end, the build above is definitely more geared towards PvE and PvP tanking rather than DPS. It won't replace the deep Immortal/Vengeance/Rage builds in their respective specialities, but it's a good and definitely viable compromise for if you want to tank and/or spank effectively in both PvE and PvP.

 

Tried out the spec with War Hero/ BM War Leader gear. 136k damage and 70k protection in Huttball. Doing pretty nicely. Haven't tried it out yet in HMs, but I'm quite happy with this spec so far. Appreciate the help

[froops]

That looks like an interesting build..Would you change it much if you wanted to purely tank for PVE HM OPS? Can someone upload a post 1.3 Pure Jugg Tank PVE Build pls? I'd really appreciate it.

 

Musclemary, I would probably say that the following build is the best PvE Juggernaut Tanking build.

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#101hMGdudMdfzZ0MZcMR.1

 

The points in Immortal are absolutely necessary as well as the 2 points in Improved Sundering Assault and 3 points in Single Saber Mastery. The final 5 points you can allocate are up to personal preference. I've put 2 into Decimate for that extra AoE damage and threat, 2 points into Dreadnaught for additional damage/threat generation from all physical damage attacks (pretty much 90% of your attacks in an Immortal Build), and I've put the last point in Unyielding for that additional rage generation, even though you'll probably be swimming in rage most of the time anyway. You could put some points in Accuracy if you prefer which would help with consistency of threat generation. Probably the better option if you are optimising your tanking gear to remove all +Accuracy stats.

 

 

For reference, this is my preferred Vengeance build.

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#1010MZGMZcrrRMhddGk.1

 

I PvE DPS as well as PvP DPS and this allows me to get the most of my PvE DPS whilst maintaining some flexibility for PvE or OTing if required.

 

Sundering Throw is there for those times where you want to do pure burst damage. It saves you having to use Sundering Assault in order to use your Shatter so you can just Saber Throw and Force Charge in then just use every single one of your highest damage attacks in the shortest possible time. If you wanted to go PURE PvE DPS you would probably drop Deafening Defense and/or Unstoppable to pick up the last point in Accuracy and grab pooled hatred but that's only if you're extremely nitpicky about squeezing every last possible bit of damage out of a build.

[Craxim]

I think that Craxim shouldn't be saying that a hybrid tanking spec is not viable at all but rather that it may no longer be the best PvE tanking spec due to the new changes in 1.3.

 

I would say that it definitely is still viable and I don't see why you wouldn't be able to take a hybrid spec into any PvE environment and still hold your own providing you have the skills and the right gear.

 

The following is my preferred hybrid Immortal/Vengeance build.

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#101hMGzuzZZfMrorhdzM.1

 

The points distribution is completely unchanged from my 1.2 build and other than the changes to Blade Barricade and Single Saber Master it remains exactly the same.

 

I think that if you are planning on doing both PvE and PvP with the same spec then this is the best hybrid spec. It will give you the best balance of mitigation and damage output possible from a hybrid build as well as great flexibility to play how you want for any given situation.

 

Some people might choose to get Sonic Barrier, but I believe that the passive and active mitigation from Deafening Defense and the guaranteed FS and VT crits from Savagery are necessary for PvP and PvE damage and tanking and a far better alternative to ~800 damage absorption every 12 seconds.

 

Others may swear by Intimidation (free Chilling Scream) for PvP, but I think getting it is too great a comprimise against damage mitigation and damage output from Retaliation. Also, I think that you'll find in both PvE and PvP, you're going to find yourself getting much more benefit from having a 1 rage cost Retaliation vs a free Chilling Scream. Less rage issues, better damage, better threat, better mitigation.

 

Feel free to provide any feedback.

 

It's an unnecessary build, I'm tired right this minute, but tomorrow I'll break it down to dust, as I've done on these very forums plenty of times, about why it's not needed. If you like it, and want to roll with it, cool. But a pure Immortal build for PvE tanking is a wiser choice for raiding on a hardcore level.

[DarthBandeth]

It's an unnecessary build, I'm tired right this minute, but tomorrow I'll break it down to dust, as I've done on these very forums plenty of times, about why it's not needed. If you like it, and want to roll with it, cool. But a pure Immortal build for PvE tanking is a wiser choice for raiding on a hardcore level.

 

Nobody is disputing that. I asked for a hybrid build that is viable for both PvP and PvE and that does good damage and tanks decently. That's what he gave me.

[RiskHarbinger]

I have been running a similar 16/25 spec ever since the 14/27 was destroyed due to 1.2. I find it the best hybrid PvP/PvE build for Juggs/Guardians especially if you do a lot of both. I am also the main tank for our raiding group and have made it through HM Denova without any problems. My dps hasn't suffered a bit in Warzones or in PvE and the buff to our aggro only helps more, that and I'm still a pain to take down. Perhaps their is a more pure Immortal spec that is better for PvE overall but I've had no issues with this build and am very glad it didn't suffer by this patch.

[Ryemfoh]

Musclemary, I would probably say that the following build is the best PvE Juggernaut Tanking build.

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#101hMGdudMdfzZ0MZcMR.1

 

The points in Immortal are absolutely necessary as well as the 2 points in Improved Sundering Assault and 3 points in Single Saber Mastery.

 

Improved Sundering Assault is not really needed if you have Crushing Fist in your build.

[vandana_]

im gonna test this 1 for PvE -

Reduced cd Force Scream for Sonic Barrier and bleed

Impale + free Smash for burst threat

Retaliation, Sonic Barrier, SSM, Unstoppable, Deafening Defense for defense with a situational Enraged Defense as additional cooldown when you can afford threat loss.

Pooled Hatred and to lesser extent Heavy Handed are skill points fillers.

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#101hMGzuzMZZcGMMrhzzM.1

Edited June 27, 2012 by vandana_

[Craxim]

Improved Sundering Assault is not really needed if you have Crushing Fist in your build.

 

It depends, you can't always use Smash in a single target situation, and there aren't many "better" choices.

[Killian_Jedi]

I agree that there's really not better choices. I mean what's left after you've got your 31 points in immortal is kinda like, Meh. Here or there, it really doesn't matter. I went with stagger instead because, well, tanking EC HM I have yet to come across a point where I couldn't use smash anyways. CC's are always spread out and things that are close together I want hitting me. It really doesn't matter I think, personal preference and tanking styles may vary.

[Crispious]

The hybrid spec is no longer viable in the sense that if you plan to tank anything above HM FPs and (maybe) SM Ops, you're really doing your group a disservice by not going deep Immortal.

 

However, for someone like me (and the OP) who mostly PvPs and every so often likes to run a HM FP here or there, the hybrid spec is still a very nice option. Especially now that Shien form fits in easier.

 

My spec is almost the same as the one previously posted, except I did opt for unlimited chilling screams as it is an invaluable power for my PvP playstyle (Kiting is the bane of my existence). I can still tank HM FPs just fine and I have enough damage to amount to more than a taunt/interrupt bot in PvP.

[Crimson_Paladin]

Forgive me but I'm still a bit confused as to how hybrid sacrifices survivabiility. The loss in 4% shield chance is more than made up by the 4% gain in kinetic and energy DR from Deafening Defense (and I don't think shield activates for internal and elemental damage, which is the same for both builds), and the loss in rage gain doesn't hinder survivability, since the only two abilities that cost rage and improve your survivability are Force Scream (which a hybrid can use more frequently than a pure Immortal) and Enraged Defense (not necessarily that useful when tanking but still superior for a hybrid than for a pure Immortal). Ruin can make up for the loss of Revenge, and Improved Sundering Assault and Impale make up for the lack of Crushing Blow. Edited June 28, 2012 by Crimson_Paladin

[Powerrmongerr]

Forgive me but I'm still a bit confused as to how hybrid sacrifices survivabiility. The loss in 4% shield chance is more than made up by the 4% gain in kinetic and energy DR from Deafening Defense (and I don't think shield activates for internal and elemental damage, which is the same for both builds), and the loss in rage gain doesn't hinder survivability, since the only two abilities that cost rage and improve your survivability are Force Scream (which a hybrid can use more frequently than a pure Immortal) and Enraged Defense (not necessarily that useful when tanking but still superior for a hybrid than for a pure Immortal). Ruin can make up for the loss of Revenge, and Improved Sundering Assault and Impale make up for the lack of Crushing Blow.

 

It's not that you're confused, it's that they are. Hybrid=more survivability, particularly if you get Force Scream off every 9 seconds.

[Elyx]

It's not that you're confused, it's that they are. Hybrid=more survivability, particularly if you get Force Scream off every 9 seconds.

 

Things definitely seem to be pointing in that direction. The shield loss is negated by improved use of scream and the 4% reduction in ALL damage (not just internal/elemental) tops Dark blood (plus the insane bonus on ED almost makes the threat loss worth it...especially now that we generate enough threat to hold aggro on a dead stick).

 

So at this point what I see as the real difference is:

 

full immortal = more threat, more rage generation in soreasu, and backhand.

Hybrid (some variation of 18/23 or 16/25) : More damage (in either soresu or shien if your off-tank), equal or better mitigation.

 

I personally prefer an 18/23 build with sonic barrier. your getting 30% more out of it with the Vengeance talents.

[Powerrmongerr]

Things definitely seem to be pointing in that direction. The shield loss is negated by improved use of scream and the 4% reduction in ALL damage (not just internal/elemental) tops Dark blood (plus the insane bonus on ED almost makes the threat loss worth it...especially now that we generate enough threat to hold aggro on a dead stick).

 

So at this point what I see as the real difference is:

 

full immortal = more threat, more rage generation in soreasu, and backhand.

Hybrid (some variation of 18/23 or 16/25) : More damage (in either soresu or shien if your off-tank), equal or better mitigation.

 

I personally prefer an 18/23 build with sonic barrier. your getting 30% more out of it with the Vengeance talents.

 

I don't think the immortal benefits in threat. Or, at least not enough to matter. Threat for end-game tanking is pretty much a yes/no proposition. "Extra" threat provides no benefit. I tank with fully augmented dps in black hole/rakata and I've never had a problem holding single target threat with hybrid, or immortal, pre and/or post 1.3. Aoe threat at end game is also NOT a concern given the prevalance of cc usage and the lack of any truly threatening aoe encounters.

 

Rage generation, rather than threat, is the true negative of the hybrid. In fact, it's so bad it's a borderline broken build. It can be made to work but the room for error is so small. Give the survivability and damage increases, though, it's the best we can do at the moment. Force scream every 9 secs is HUGE. Don't mismanage your rage and leave yourself unable to proc that every. single. time.

 

Immortal needs to be reworked. I keep posting about the hybrid vis a vis immortal not because I'm a huge fan of the hybrid (I'm not, it's an annoying, exhausting spec to use) but because immortal is now SO bad that I feel inclined to make my opinion known on these forums. As we seem to be ignored, I'm probably going to lose the energy to continue posting about it in the near future.

Edited July 5, 2012 by Powerrmongerr

[Elyx]

I don't think the immortal benefits in threat. Or, at least not enough to matter. Threat for end-game tanking is pretty much a yes/no proposition. "Extra" threat provides no benefit. I tank with fully augmented dps in black hole/rakata and I've never had a problem holding single target threat with hybrid, or immortal, pre and/or post 1.3. Aoe threat at end game is also NOT a concern given the prevalance of cc usage and the lack of any truly threatening aoe encounters.

 

Rage generation, rather than threat, is the true negative of the hybrid. In fact, it's so bad it's a borderline broken build. It can be made to work but the room for error is so small. Give the survivability and damage increases, though, it's the best we can do at the moment. Force scream every 9 secs is HUGE. Don't mismanage your rage and leave yourself unable to proc that every. single. time.

 

Immortal needs to be reworked. I keep posting about the hybrid vis a vis immortal not because I'm a huge fan of the hybrid (I'm not, it's an annoying, exhausting spec to use) but because immortal is now SO bad that I feel inclined to make my opinion known on these forums. As we seem to be ignored, I'm probably going to lose the energy to continue posting about it in the near future.

 

I agree. The extra threat wasn't really needed IMO (and stated so many times in the PTR threads). I held aggro before 1.3 just fine. but it is there, so worth mentioning (even if it is overkill) And Indeed....the simple fact that a hybrid build that is Mostly Vengeance works just as well (pending the variances) as the full tank build is baroke. My fear is they'll just nerf Vengeance to compensate. I don't mind losing a bit of mitigation in Vengeance, but Immortal really needs some reworking to make it more attractive.

 

As an example, I understand the reasoning behind reworking saber mastery...but ultimately all it did was negatively impact Immortal, and benefit Vengeance (when using soresu). that bonus to soresu should have been higher in the Immortal tree, so only by taking a full tank spec would you gain the extra DR. As it currently stands, my immortal spec loses 6% melee damage, but my hybrid can benefit from both (though only 1 at a time). thats 6% extra defense that hybrids and vengeance did not have before.

 

that's just an example, but it illustrates why Immortal really could use some love. There's been plenty of great ideas that have come across the forums as to re-organizing the immortal tree. I think most the irritation from 1.3 wasn't because people thought it was breaking the class...it was because in spite of all the great ideas, they gave us something we didn't need (overall threat), and took away something that we really liked (damage). it's like a teenager complaining to his parents that his clothes are worn and torn, and he gets cold...so his parents give him a hat, and take away his shoes...and don't touch his clothes...

 

...but...I liked my shoes. they weren't the problem. i didn't need the silly hat, just give me a decent pair of pants!

[Ghostuka]

I think that Craxim shouldn't be saying that a hybrid tanking spec is not viable at all but rather that it may no longer be the best PvE tanking spec due to the new changes in 1.3.

 

I would say that it definitely is still viable and I don't see why you wouldn't be able to take a hybrid spec into any PvE environment and still hold your own providing you have the skills and the right gear.

 

The following is my preferred hybrid Immortal/Vengeance build.

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#101hMGzuzZZfMrorhdzM.1

 

The points distribution is completely unchanged from my 1.2 build and other than the changes to Blade Barricade and Single Saber Master it remains exactly the same.

 

I think that if you are planning on doing both PvE and PvP with the same spec then this is the best hybrid spec. It will give you the best balance of mitigation and damage output possible from a hybrid build as well as great flexibility to play how you want for any given situation.

 

Some people might choose to get Sonic Barrier, but I believe that the passive and active mitigation from Deafening Defense and the guaranteed FS and VT crits from Savagery are necessary for PvP and PvE damage and tanking and a far better alternative to ~800 damage absorption every 12 seconds.

 

Others may swear by Intimidation (free Chilling Scream) for PvP, but I think getting it is too great a comprimise against damage mitigation and damage output from Retaliation. Also, I think that you'll find in both PvE and PvP, you're going to find yourself getting much more benefit from having a 1 rage cost Retaliation vs a free Chilling Scream. Less rage issues, better damage, better threat, better mitigation.

 

Feel free to provide any feedback.

 

Interesting build. Would you prefer deafening defense over sonic barrier? I can't choose between the two, but then again I don't know how much sonic barrier stops. Are you sure it is 800 damage in average? Some people claim it absorbs the amount of damage that the force scream deals. And with savagery, I can get a lot of damage out of force scream.

[_Ekinox_]

More I read more it seems "chinese" to me.

 

To level-up solo (PvE missions and Flashpoints) should I go for TANK setup or DPS setup ?