The PvP Sorcerer & Sage Build Thread

[fungihoujo]

31 Madness- has a root, you have good single target kiting ability- but after you blow your mez you are screwed the moment a second player touches you. You are able to kill targets slowly with dots, which makes you utterly useless on the offence for pretty much everything- as your damage is way too slow to actually kill enemies fast enough to cap/get the door before respawns. You are a class that could be good in a game without such small windows for capping objectives, or in duels or arena play- but unfortunately you are not a good class for the objectives in this game. You rely on dots heavily and as such any team with a healer utterly counters you.

 

31 Lightning- you are ****. You have decent damage, no mobility, and still aren't the greatest for damage, your abilities are way too slow to get off, and you are an arsenal merc- but your 'TM' is lightning strike, which does less damage and has no debuff. I don't think I've seen even mindless bads playing this spec.

 

31 Corruption- you have good healing numbers... when left alone. This is decent for solo play, but against anyone decent enough to target a healer you are squishy, immobile, have no good CC and your healing relies on standing still and long cast times. You will be interrupted, any two players with CC will simply shut you down until you're dead, which won't take long, and you're the prime target all the time- so you'll have two DPS on you, all the time.

 

 

If you're going to go 31 of anything it will be madness for the root- that, and it's a decent spec for solo play if you don't care for winning. Hybrids are your only chance of being useful, and even then there isn't a spec for either dps or healing that is as useful as other AC's top specs. Your biggest use is huttball, and specifically for assisting ball carrying in huttball as you don't have the damage to kill enemy carriers.

 

This of course is talking of a case with equal gear/skill- frankly, if you're good, or better geared, it doesn't matter what AC you have in solo queue because you're better than 95% of players anyway. But, even then- if you were playing another AC you'd be doing that much better.

[Cempa]

On Madness self healing:

 

It comes out to about 20 HPS, for a DPS build 20 HPS is not worth gimping your self over. In fact the 15% reduction to DoT damage is far more healing or preventing damage than 20 HPS -assuming 31 Madness with 100% extra healing.

[MidichIorian]

Everyone with a clue has realized that dps sorcs/sages are worthless and won't fill a spot on serious rated teams if some other class is available. Well everyone but Bioware.

 

And I don't see how it will get any better on Tueday when the burst classes get another 6-7 augment spots they can fill with power. Like a nerf to adrenals/relics is going to matter when they still crit back to back for +4K. To make things worse you can now dress up a pyro as a sage which makes it even harder for real sorcs/sages to determine who they need to stay the hell away from. Should it really be expected that class stays 30 meteres away from everyone els at all times? If so, make them immune to gap closers and get rid of the CD on Force Speed.

 

Or crazy idea, up the damage on force lightning. It doesnt make sense that an assassin's force lightning can tick for twice as much as a sorc's when it's the sorcs base ability.

 

Another thing, if you, as a sorc/sage, find yourself on the owning team you will eventually run out of force and have even less chance of surviving when someone attacks you. Not much you can do with affliction and force lightning. Hence, force regen should be atleast twice as high as now, it's the only way of having some burst available. Not sure if BW has realized this but sorcs/sages have no natural regen ability like other classes, such as Maras, have.

Edited June 25, 2012 by MidichIorian

[Ewgal]

Everyone with a clue has realized that dps sorcs/sages are worthless and won't fill a spot on serious rated teams if some other class is available. Well everyone but Bioware.

 

Well, I'd assume that a rated team would be something like

 

2 healers

1-2 tank

4-5 dps

 

Obviously Sage can't fill the tank role (high HP class), so that leaves healer or dps position.

 

As deep spec healer Sage is kinda weak. We get AoE, but we end up with too few points to go into the balance tree and get good cc. Hybrid dps-healer works better, and I think that's the only way a Sage could simply stay alive long enough to heal against a pro rated team.

 

As dps a Balance or Balance hybrid is pretty good since plenty off cc to help you out against melee dps.

 

In terms of warzones the rescue ability is very useful in huttball.

 

So we could probably fill a dps or healer role, if nothing else because you need ranged in a team and we have an edge over gunslinger in utility.

 

Bioware could improve things, though, as clearly there are a lot of classes that people will play at rated, e.g. Sentinel, simply because they are overpowered.

Edited June 25, 2012 by Ewgal

[Akyio]

I run as balance/madness sage.

 

I'm all fine, and statistically I end up being top dps in game, usually the second one..

 

Now where the problem is.. How much of that dps is burst? lol basically no burst. To start dealing damage I have to drop my aoe, put 2 dots, then tele throw and mind crush, then you can see DoT's ticking and target receiving huge damage over time, but that damage is like instantly negated by heals.

So I keep on doing this, if let's say no marauder or some PT jump on me and burn me in several seconds. So I keep on doing this, and I end up having no force, and being forced to use tele throw continuously and doing very little damage, but I have no other choice..

 

I like this build, I have that root, I have loads of CC as well, but I don't like this build much, I rather play lightning/telekinetics, which is utterly useless in PvP, and only viable in PvE.

 

I don't get that person who wrote here above, that he played all the way through being lightning sorc. You will only deal more damage if the team ignores you, and usually you will "shine" in voidstar where you can do some crazy AoE. But as soon as someone jumps on you, your all done.

 

Being lightning/tele sorc/sage is the same like being gunslinger/sniper, but having no cover = everyone can pull you, everyone can interrupt you, everyone can jump on you. And yeah on top of it doing less damage.

[Cempa]

31 Balance/Madness requires the use of consumption (life tap) and the 2 sec root does nothing when you have a snare on you that you can not remove (such as pyro DoT or Marauder DoT snare for example).

 

In rated you will always have at least x3 DPS attacking the same target and will frequently see x3 Warrior/Knight on the same target!

 

The really good teams will always have x3 to x5 armor debuff at which point just a few seconds will result in that target being dead.

 

If you invest into Electric Binding the other team has to take a risk if they go after you IF you stay a little back, the risk is they must focus fire you and it must be melee so they can easily get slapped with a 5 sec root!

 

AS SOON AS THEY REALIZE YOU DON'T HAVE ELECTRIC BINDING: You will be the easiest to kill because even if you stay ranged they do not have a risk of a 5 sec root.

Edited June 25, 2012 by Cempa

[Darth_Philar]

AS SOON AS THEY REALIZE YOU DON'T HAVE ELECTRIC BINDING: You will be the easiest to kill because even if you stay ranged they do not have a risk of a 5 sec root.

 

This.

 

I tried running without Electric Binding and the Bubble Flash and my PvP experience consisted of:

1. Healing no one since I spend the entire match running from an enemy DPS.

2. Casting 1-2 Heals and then returning to spawn.

 

If you are going to attempt to heal in PvP as a Sorcerer/Sage, you are REQUIRED to spec as a hybrid.

[pureeffinmetal]

On a side note people in this thread Underestimate the Burst Damage Lightning can throw down.

 

Thundering Blast (4k) + Reckelessness + Hasted Force Lightning (4k) + Instant CL (4k)

 

12k damage in 3 GCDs is pretty good. It is entire procc'd based however and thus is not reliable but Lightning can burst damage, pretty well.

 

Its still immobile and has problems under focus fire, though.

[Ewgal]

Ah, I sorta agree. Sorcerer healers are always going to fill a role in rated WZs. Operative healers don't have the burst healing to keep up demand and mercs are just pyrotechbait. Sorcerers add in required direct healing and effective AoE heals/damage.

 

The problem with spec to 31 corruption as Sorc is it leaves you with not enough points to get talents to improve cc and snare opponents in warzones. That really limits your survivability as a healer in warzones where you are going to be focused by the enemy team.

Edited June 25, 2012 by Ewgal

[LancelotOC]

On a side note people in this thread Underestimate the Burst Damage Lightning can throw down.

 

Thundering Blast (4k) + Reckelessness + Hasted Force Lightning (4k) + Instant CL (4k)

 

12k damage in 3 GCDs is pretty good. It is entire procc'd based however and thus is not reliable but Lightning can burst damage, pretty well.

 

Its still immobile and has problems under focus fire, though.

 

This. There is something with lightning and a pack of Sorcs asssiting that can work. It may be the only strategy that we can pull off in rated that would be effective. Think a pack of Snipers assisting only with slightly less range, damage, but utility and some heals.

[Cempa]

On a side note people in this thread Underestimate the Burst Damage Lightning can throw down.

 

Thundering Blast (4k) + Reckelessness + Hasted Force Lightning (4k) + Instant CL (4k)

 

12k damage in 3 GCDs is pretty good. It is entire procc'd based however and thus is not reliable but Lightning can burst damage, pretty well.

 

Its still immobile and has problems under focus fire, though.

 

Lightning can put out sick burst when the stars align no doubt, I will keep mu eye out to see how turrets do in rated.

[L-RANDLE]

From the perspective of Sages / Sorcerers as well as other AC's assuming objective based pre made group play.

 

In your opinion how are 31 builds and why?

 

 

31 point builds for DPS are crap because they don't do enough damage. Most classes have a 31 point talent that is more effective and are instant while sage/sorc is channeled or DoT. I have been trying to push for buffs and rework of the trees since 1.2. I think it is about time to rehash some of issues with our skill trees. I am rolling 3/17/21 right now, but experimenting with a 0/17/24 as well...

 

Intro:

This is a proposed change to the Sage/Sorc AC DPS/Kiting, as I feel 1.2 fails to make our class viable @ PvP (once ranked is deployed) and PvE (in some ways). The focus is PvP and is a constructive thread made for proposals, not conjecture or opinion on how un-/powerful we are or L2P issues. I have played standard (3/7/31), hybrid (0/23/18), modified standard (2/11/28; 0/13/28) and have been playing since launch on this character only. I have a mix of BM/Rakata gear and I feel I have a good grasp of my flaws and strengths when compared to other characters, but with 1.2 the balance seems lop-sided.

I tried to give 1.2 a chance. I still have my AoE/CC damage, which looks good on a leaderboard, but realistically it feels like I am Brock Lesner’s backhoe tire, and “other” classes have his sledgehammer and pounding me with it. This was not the case pre 1.2 and was not due to the change in PoM proc. The buffs other classes got, along with the already inflated cc, have severely crippled Sages/Sorcs. It has gotten players to the point that most are quitting/rerolling or stubborn as hell and enduring the beatings (I am the latter). It is pretty obvious that 1.2 has made our survivability suspect, at best. With the mass re-rolls and somewhat “unwarranted” nerfs some classes were subject to makes me highly doubtful I can use my Sage will be viable in Ranked. This is just background to understand my proposed changes.

 

Problems (the good; the bad; the Jar-Jar):

-Sages/Sorcs were overpowered from the PvP damage output perspective: We needed a nerf, and I think another is required. I will explain more on this later.

- Our skill trees are incorrectly balanced from a role perspective: The “shared tree” is not really shared and the other two have misguided skills for the role. I thought game mechanics would have made us kiting DoTers (Balance Tree), burst DPS/Off-DPS (TK Tree) or healers (Seer Tree), but we can’t get enough in a single tree to excel at any of these. Since this was not addressed before 1.2, our flaws are now even more evident, given the nerfs and buffs that took place.

-We have no defensive CD/threat generator, but too much CC: Seems like most classes have at least one DFCD, and some with more depending on skill tree or class. There are none for our class. Our CC is the main contributor to the OP’d threads. It just so happens some of the CC is directly attached to our AoE, which is a problem.

-Most of our attacks are Force based but are kinetic damage: We have very few ways to initiate internal damage. Since we are heavy force-users, lore and role dictates that most of our attacks should be internal types and also takes armor rating out of the equation.

 

 

 

Proposed Changes (Can we get some of the dogmatic view of the Jedi Counslars?)

 

Tree Changes:

1. Swap “Two Disciplines” from the Shadow/Sin balance tree with “Assertion” from the Sage/Sorc balance tree (both are on the same tier anyway): This will give us some melee bonus on each “Project” (more on this later). This should be an easy change since it is a “shared tree”.

2. Swap “Kinetic Collapse” from the TK tree, for “Psychic Suffusion” and move that high in the TK tree: This gives more decisive need to spec high in TK for max DPS and gives Seers a better tool for survival while healing.

3. Change “Mind Ward” to ALL ATTACKs, but nerf it to max reduction @10% instead of 14%: This will help the balance tree in kiting/tanking aspirations.

4. Get rid of “Rescue” and make “Force Pull” a lower threat friendly on the seer tree and “Force Push” on the balance tree that generates high threat and “small perks” if the attackers hit someone else (an effective taunt): If we want to kite, then we need a threat generator.

5. Add a “Double Strike/Sabre Strike” talent on the TK tree: How much and what tier? Eh!! Maybe 20% and tier 3 or 4. It gives incentive to spec in the TK tree.

6. Revisit all Sage/Sorc skill trees because they are not really role defining (except maybe the Seer tree): I could go on for days about the trees, but for length considerations, I will leave it at that.

 

Talent Changes:

1. Nerf our AoE DAMAGE OUTPUT by 30%, and change Force in Balance to a Kinetic attack: The PoM proc was causing the issue, but if you reduce the damage on ANY PoM proc’d attack, then the number would have fell in line better. Say “instant activate, but decrease damage by 30% over a straight activated one”. As a whole, AoE is much more valuable to prevent caps/plants, but the damage made our numbers outlandish on PvP leaderboards and still does to a degree.

2. Change Mind Crush to an internal attack and Disturbance to an elemental attack and buff them 20%, and take out the “root” requirement: Mind Crush should have NOTHING to do with armor rating (unless by “mind crush” you mean sticking your head in a force-vise). It should be an attack on the person’s mind; not their head, and would fall more in-line with the lore of consulars. Only mental resistance talents that are spec’d out or talents should mitigate a withering of the mind. The Disturbance animation is a “lightning ball” so make it an attack that can only be shielded with generators or redirected/mitigated with talents.

3. Give us a talent like “Deflection” on a 2min CD: Deflection is in the Shadow/Sin pool, and should be an easy add.

4. Lock “Tumult” to Sage/Sorc only, unlock “Tumult” so we can use it against other players and buff “Tumult” 50%, increase the CD on “Tumult” to 90 sec, and keep the incapacitated requirement as is on “Tumult”: Whew!!! It’s a lot, but did I mention changes to “Tumult” are long overdue. I mean seriously. We already have limited attacks (as some call us “one-button wonders”). Why not open us up to more melee, if the range is eliminated. This could be our “Neo, matrix style, nuke” but it still would require a stunned opponent and good timing to connect (saying a breaker is available to the opponent and they are willing to use it).

5. Increase the CD of ALL CC (Force Wave, Force Stun, Force Lift)abilities by 20 Sec: This will need to be the tradeoff since it would appease the “Sage/Sorc CC is too much” crowd (resolve makes our CC ineffective at a certain point, but whatev…)

 

 

Conclusion

These are just observations and suggestions I have come up with. Overall I feel these changes will not cause an “overperformance” as BW calls it, and all classes can live with these. Even if BW implemented a few of these, our Quality of Life would greatly improve and also make us more viable for rated warzones. Even if it is just for a trial, I encourage BW to do it.

If you want to add or change ideas, feel free, but like I said comment on why the idea is bad; not anything else. I want to keep this 100. I can accept my ideas being critiqued, but fanboy; class bashing is not what this thread is about. Come correct, or don’t come at all…

 

TL: DR

1. Increase our kiting abilities.

2. Give us a defensive CD and a threat generator on long CD’s (aka better defense on the balance tree).

3. Nerf our AoE DMG output further.

4. Give us more attack types: Internal v Kinetic (better single target DPS).

5. Increase our CC CD’s (which are a bit much).

[SinnedWill]

My madness sorc. does pretty darn good in all warzones. Only significant issue I have is the lack of burst to take down certain heal specs without aid. Edited June 25, 2012 by SinnedWill

[L-RANDLE]

My madness sorc. does pretty darn good in all warzones. Only significant issue I have is the lack of burst to take down certain heal specs without aid.

 

Does it start with an "M" and end with a "Y"?

[Paulman]

I personally don't care for any of the 31 point specs. I prefer 21/20. Or something close to pink's specs with minor differences. I disagree with Cempa on the bubble mez. It adds less resolve than a knockback. Somewhere just above 25%. So it would take 4 mezs to fill a bar. That's 12 seconds of mez time. The problem is people breaking it. This should happen less(I would hope) in rated where players are focusing etc.

 

21/2/18 is also not too bad if you don't like the tk hybrid.

[snaplemouton]

People just keep comparing normal specs/class to OP FOTM.

And we end up with QQ posts about sorcs/sage being UP which is false.

^^^^^^^^

 

Sage/Sorc are fine. 31 specs or hybrids.

 

All thoses people comparing to Pyrotechs, marauders and even tanksassins. Because they played the FOTM sage/sorc when the game came out and the nerf to hybrid madness and to healing make it look like the class is now worthless.

If you fail at it, then go play something else.

 

Plus, stop complaining about scoundrel. They are slightly less squishy then you, they have no speed burst, no knockback and no ranged stun. They only look good because of emergency medpac and no one seems to knows that a scoundrel need to be stunned under 30% health.

Edited June 25, 2012 by snaplemouton

[Rompdomp]

^^^^^^^^

 

Sage/Sorc are fine. 31 specs or hybrids.

 

All thoses people comparing to Pyrotechs, marauders and even tanksassins. Because they played the FOTM sage/sorc when the game came out and the nerf to hybrid madness and to healing make it look like the class is now worthless.

If you fail at it, then go play something else.

 

Plus, stop complaining about scoundrel. They are slightly less squishy then you, they have no speed burst, no knockback and no ranged stun. They only look good because of emergency medpac and no one seems to knows that a scoundrel need to be stunned under 30% health.

 

 

This is all good and well but have you pvp'd a sage/sorc at 50 for a signifigant amount of time? I'm just curious .

[Evil_Santa]

This is all good and well but have you pvp'd a sage/sorc at 50 for a signifigant amount of time? I'm just curious .

 

What he says is true - and i've pvp'd a signifigant amount of time on my sorc.

 

Oh wait the only reason i play other characters is for the legacy buffs.

Edited June 25, 2012 by Evil_Santa

[Evil_Santa]

On a side note people in this thread Underestimate the Burst Damage Lightning can throw down.

 

Thundering Blast (4k) + Reckelessness + Hasted Force Lightning (4k) + Instant CL (4k)

 

12k damage in 3 GCDs is pretty good. It is entire procc'd based however and thus is not reliable but Lightning can burst damage, pretty well.

 

Its still immobile and has problems under focus fire, though.

 

I've got one better for ya.

 

Reckless + Polarity shift + Proc'd Force lightning into wrath-proc'd Crushing Darkness into another force-lightning and Death field = about 15k dmg in the same amount of time, considering you have a cast time on TB.

[Paulman]

^^^^^^^^

 

Sage/Sorc are fine. 31 specs or hybrids.

 

All thoses people comparing to Pyrotechs, marauders and even tanksassins. Because they played the FOTM sage/sorc when the game came out and the nerf to hybrid madness and to healing make it look like the class is now worthless.

I.f you fail at it, then go play something else.

 

Plus, stop complaining about scoundrel. They are slightly less squishy then you, they have no speed burst, no knockback and no ranged stun. They only look good because of emergency medpac and no one seems to knows that a scoundrel need to be stunned under 30% health.

 

The thing is you listed nearly half the classes in the game. And are you saying sorcs are even with guardians and gunslingers? I actually agree to some extent but those classes you listed make up the majorityin warzones it seems nowadays. All in all I do like the sorc/sage but then again I don't play a 31 point spec. Mostly for the reasons pink listed. If you a get a couple dps on you as a 31 point spec you are easily shutdown.

[pinkseid]

Few suggestions for your build:

 

Parasitism: Of no use what so ever 1 hard cast heal is far superior. Corrupted Flesh is far..FAAAAAR...greater.

 

Backlash: My issue with it is a love hate relationship. Because I often bubble others especially when we do not have a Sorcerer healer the other team Resolve gets filled pretty fast. The love part is it makes me better last melee trains.

 

Dark Mending: Great talent to have no question there, I opted thus far to go for 3/3 Seeping Darkness 3% Crit. when Rated starts I will take another look.

 

Subversion: Of little use, its a really bad talent even for 31 Lightning!

 

3/17/21

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#201hZdcMRbMMZcMcRsrk.1

 

Again, I will reassess the build after 10 or so Rated matches. We have a 31 Madness and a 31 Lightning Sorcerer in the guild and will give feedback then.

 

 

Totally agree with you on CORRUPTED FLESH.

 

Backlash I LOVE.

- if the enemy is attacking 2-3 separate targets.. they're crap and you'll win.

- if my team is attacking 2-3 targets.. I will gkick

- Backlash blind should blind everyone if only 1 person getting focused

from feedback from enemy and highly skilled players.. backlash is their most hated ability

- personally I am very happy to get killed by a full resolve player as opposed to a no-resolve player.

- 3+ assist train will beat a target down resolve or not.

 

Other pts..... are a matter of preference.

 

 

31 Lightning semi ok.. cause they have 19+ in Lightning which is the main point.

31 Madness is not ok.. cause they will be sidelined by every other class.