Thoughts on GameSpy's Article on SWTOR

[Shingara]

To be fair, the level of quality in storytelling found in BioWare's other games is leaps and bounds above the quality found in SWTOR. Ohlen admitted this just yesterday...

 

http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/view/videos/gameID/367/videoId/2485

 

Maybe so, and i can see how with so much story in swtor, bulk to quality is always gonna be something that suffers when you swing one way or another but the vast majority of players like the story. We have good and bad points in the story telling simply due to the limited impact we can have on the world based on a mmo over a single player game.

 

But to say you dont like the story is one thing, to say that having story impacts upon your gameplay is another.

Edited June 20, 2012 by Shingara

[DarthKhaos]

Different strokes for different folks. This is the core of my point. Some say that TOR PvE is lackluster, some believe it is captivating and engaging. Some say the PvP fails, others can't get enough of it. No matter what floats your boat there will be something that doesn't.

 

I've had my fill of medieval fantasy based games. That's one of the reasons why I'm here and why I'll be back after exams are over. I love Sci-fi, Star Wars, and the story this game gives me. I have engaged in instanced and open world pvp (yes I've jacked and been jacked quite a bit out on various planets) and enjoyed it. I am always impressed with the detail of the landscape and how my character looks (even with the limited selection for character creation).

 

You don't and that's OK. Not every game is for you. My question is why are you still subbed for a game you clearly don't like 6 months after it's been released?

[Dezzi]

So - after 2 Beta weekends - people are able to fairly comment on how the lack of real endgame will impact GW2? GW2's one major flaw in it's appeal to traditional gamers can't yet be tested.

 

One thing going for GW is that they they don't have to post sub numbers =)

 

That's the thing: there is no traditional end game in GW2. The "end game" as we know it doesn't exist. At all. Instead, those experiences traditionally referred to as "end game" were integrated into the leveling experience. I don't have to be level 80 to take part in the open world PvP or "raids." I can jump into these things as soon as my character lands in Tyria. So there's nothing to test, as it were, because there is no end game.

 

It's an extremely difficult thing to wrap one's head around because we've been conditioned to think that there's two modes of play in an MMO. I think GW2 is delivering an experience that says, "You don't have to spend your entire game experience working toward a few dailies and dungeon raids. Your entire game experience is those things."

 

SWTOR does it like everyone else--your 1-49 experience is inconsequential to your 50 experience. It's like flipping a switch and suddenly you're playing a completely different game.

 

So you're right in the sense that there's nothing to test, but that's the point, I think.

[Shingara]

That's the thing: there is no traditional end game in GW2. The "end game" as we know it doesn't exist. At all. Instead, those experiences traditionally referred to as "end game" were integrated into the leveling experience. I don't have to be level 80 to take part in the open world PvP or "raids." I can jump into these things as soon as my character lands in Tyria. So there's nothing to test, as it were, because there is no end game.

 

It's an extremely difficult thing to wrap one's head around because we've been conditioned to think that there's two modes of play in an MMO. I think GW2 is delivering an experience that says, "You don't have to spend your entire game experience working toward a few dailies and dungeon raids. Your entire game experience is those things."

 

SWTOR does it like everyone else--your 1-49 experience is inconsequential to your 50 experience. It's like flipping a switch and suddenly you're playing a completely different game.

 

So you're right in the sense that there's nothing to test, but that's the point, I think.

 

I can see why they have done this, mmos have for a few years tried to make it so that people arnt limited on content and the main limit to players used tobe endgame in the form of raids due to them being the hardest content on a group dynamic stance.

 

But is this something that going to come around and bite GW in the rear, without a good endgame there is a sect of the playerbase of mmos that will rebound from that. There is some that simply play for that endgame and how its of limited availability to just them. Remove the carrot and all your left with is a stick.

Edited June 20, 2012 by Shingara

[Kalfear]

As a baseline, I would say those that started with EQ2 or classic WoW (and I started well before either), but I'm sure there are many who took the effort to gain familiarity with the genre and its history that started with it later. But you're just looking for a semantic argument, so I'll bid you adieu unless you wish to talk about what I actually asserted.

 

lol and I would say People that started in EQ2/WOW have a very one dimensional veiw of the MMORPG genre because they have only really seen the same design concept over and over to mostly failed results (other then WOW)

 

A vetran of the MMORPG genre to me would be someone that started in Ultima Online (I started well before that) and has played AT LEAST 10-15 titles since that time!

 

Dezzi been pretty bang on with his/her arguements so far in this thread about peoples opinions being attacked by people offering up....opinions!

Edited June 20, 2012 by Kalfear

[Arkerus]

I disagree with just about the entire article and it all started on page 1.

 

Story, in NO WAY has affected gameplay in TOR. The story is just a story and the gameplay would have been the same with or without the voice-over cut scenes. The engine, love it or hate it, drives the gameplay and it was all built around it.

The author makes the classical logical fallacy that "opinion equals fact" and basis his article on that assumption. Its a classic blunder and it happens all. the. time.

 

In his opening statement he states that the VO's subtract from the MMO experience. That is opinion and no other way around it.

 

The rest of his points are all based on opinion and fan-boyism. He makes HUGE conclusions that TOR's end game style is "worse" than GW2 because GW2 uses a new end game style. Its ridiculous to even state that considering one of his points is the "journey" and not the end. One of TOR's main selling points is the JOURNEY! Not the end!

 

This article is just hand picked, fanboy BS as its best. Nowhere in his rambling, incoherent thoughts did he even come close to what could be considered a logical thought. There is nothing wrong with GW2 as far as I know but the article really goes out of its way to trash on a competitor that isn't even directly in the same space as GW2.

Edited June 20, 2012 by Arkerus

[MasterKayote]

Oh look another article about how awesome a yet to be released game is compared to the previous "awesome, yet to be released" game that was better than the "awesome, yet to be released" game before it. Wow, this is so new and exciting!

 

Oh! And look at all the sheep baaa'ing their way into the article, giving them all the hits they intended to get by writing a biased article that bashed a game!

 

Cant wait to read how much better Secret World is than GW2... or even the one that makes good points** on how Elder Scrolls Online is better than Secret World! They pretty much got their advertisments covered for the next year!

 

Good Points: Focusing on the most attractive parts of a certain subject, comparing it to the weaker parts of a similar subject, then playing words to make it sound like its the whole story. Like its the most exciting and innovative thing ever than cannot ever be looked upon negatively once its actually released.

Edited June 20, 2012 by MasterKayote

[Typeslice]

That's the thing: there is no traditional end game in GW2. The "end game" as we know it doesn't exist. At all. Instead, those experiences traditionally referred to as "end game" were integrated into the leveling experience. I don't have to be level 80 to take part in the open world PvP or "raids." I can jump into these things as soon as my character lands in Tyria. So there's nothing to test, as it were, because there is no end game.

 

It's an extremely difficult thing to wrap one's head around because we've been conditioned to think that there's two modes of play in an MMO. I think GW2 is delivering an experience that says, "You don't have to spend your entire game experience working toward a few dailies and dungeon raids. Your entire game experience is those things."

 

SWTOR does it like everyone else--your 1-49 experience is inconsequential to your 50 experience. It's like flipping a switch and suddenly you're playing a completely different game.

 

So you're right in the sense that there's nothing to test, but that's the point, I think.

 

That's exactly my point. I fully understand what they are trying to and I think it is overly ambitious and will be their downfall. In the end, I see GW2 carving out the same niche that GW1 did. It will appeal to people just like traditional games will appeal to others. In my opinion, GW2 is not the second coming of MMOs and will ultimately be something people play on the side of their main MMO.

 

When i say test I mean have people sit around for 6 months with no traditional end game.

Edited June 20, 2012 by Typeslice

[CelCawdro]

lol and I would say People that started in EQ2/WOW have a very one dimensional veiw of the MMORPG genre because they have only really seen the same design concept over and over to mostly failed results (other then WOW)

 

A vetran of the MMORPG genre to me would be someone that started in Ultima Online (I started well before that) and has played AT LEAST 10-15 titles since that time!

 

Dezzi been pretty bang on with his/her arguements so far in this thread about peoples opinions being attacked by people offering up....opinions!

 

Ultima Online, while my own starting point, simply isn't relevant to the current state of the genre. That first little battle between WoW and EQ2 (which everyone thought EQ2 was destined to win) kicked off virtually every trend we see in the MMO market to this day.

 

Likewise, stating (roughly) "well, you are stating an opinion to dispute an opinion" is tantamount to saying nothing. That's the way that debate and discussion operates.

[Dezzi]

Different strokes for different folks. This is the core of my point. Some say that TOR PvE is lackluster, some believe it is captivating and engaging. Some say the PvP fails, others can't get enough of it. No matter what floats your boat there will be something that doesn't.

 

I've had my fill of medieval fantasy based games. That's one of the reasons why I'm here and why I'll be back after exams are over. I love Sci-fi, Star Wars, and the story this game gives me. I have engaged in instanced and open world pvp (yes I've jacked and been jacked quite a bit out on various planets) and enjoyed it. I am always impressed with the detail of the landscape and how my character looks (even with the limited selection for character creation).

 

You don't and that's OK. Not every game is for you. My question is why are you still subbed for a game you clearly don't like 6 months after it's been released?

 

I'm not subscribed, but my account is active thanks to BioWare's (EA's?) funny math.

 

However, I don't know what having a subscription has to do with having an opinion. I've invested the last 11 months toward playing this game (I started playing as a general tester in August)--four of which I paid for the pleasure (or displeasure?).

 

I unsubscribed a month ago, but was gifted a free month which runs out today, I believe. I waited until I was absolutely sure that my playstyle was not a priority or a foreseeable priority for this team before I made the decisio to move onto other things. I'm leaving behind characters I've developed for months, great friends, and a guild that felt like home.

 

Given all of this, I don't know why having a subscription--or not having one--automatically entitles someone to talk about the game or automatically barres them from doing so, in the case of the latter.

 

You're damn right that people like me, who have invested time and money in the game and want it to succeed will have something to say. You like it, that's great. Good for you. But don't disparage me because I don't.

Edited June 20, 2012 by Dezzi

[Shingara]

I'm not subscribed, but my account is active thanks to BioWare's (EA's?) funny math.

 

However, I don't know what having a subscription has to do with having an opinion. I've invested the last 11 months toward playing this game (I started playing as a general tester in August)--six of which I paid for the pleasure (or displeasure?).

 

I unsubscribed a month ago, but was gifted a free month which runs out today, I believe. I waited until I was absolutely sure that my playstyle was not a priority or a foreseeable priority for this team before I made the decisio to move onto other things. I'm leaving behind characters I've developed for months, great friends, and a guild that felt like home.

 

Given all of this, I don't know why having a subscription--or not having one--automatically entitles someone to talk about the game or automatically barres them from doing so, in the case of the latter.

 

You're damn right that people like me, who have invested time and money in the game and want it to succeed will have something to say. You like it, that's great. Good for you. But don't disparage me because I don't.

 

if you paid for 6 months and got a free month your subs dont end till august. Free month from box, 6 months paid and free month given.

Edited June 20, 2012 by Shingara

[Dezzi]

if you paid for 6 months and got a free month your subs dont end till august.

 

I didn't pay for a six-month subscription; I paid monthly, with my time starting on day-two of early access. Maker knows anything can happen and you might end up missing a good portion of your playtime from month to month.

Edited June 20, 2012 by Dezzi

[Shingara]

I didn't pay for six months; I paid monthly, with my time starting on day-two of early access. Maker knows anything can happen and you might end up missing a good portion of your playtime from month to month.

 

id go check when your subs end, even if you paid 6 months in blocks the 1st month was free and we were given a free month ontop of that.

Edited June 20, 2012 by Shingara

[Dezzi]

id go check when your subs end, even if you paid 6 months in blocks the 1st month was free.

 

Oh oh, I see the confusion. Sorry. I technically only paid for four months. Apologies.

[Shingara]

Oh oh, I see the confusion. Sorry. I technically only paid for four months. Apologies.

 

aa right nps, had me puzzled there for a sec

[Fox_McCloud]

I think a lot of people get hung up on "GW2 has no end game! omg".

 

What they mean is that there is no end game in the traditional sense that out dated MMOs have had it. That being: level to max level, and then you can begin "raiding" the same 1 or 2 raids over and over again with a bunch of people.

 

Arenanet realized that kind of "endgame" was not fun. However there were some cool things about it.. namely fighting a big bad boss mob with a lot of other players. So rather then sticking that at level 80 they put a whole bunch of it through the entire game from levels 1 all the way to 80.

 

Combine that with the fact that the game scales your level to the content, means that you can rerun these "raids" (otherwise known in gw2 as major dynamic events) as many times as you want with your guild and still be challenged and have fun.

 

Take a look at this video to understand what GW2 is truly doing to "end game", there is TONS of "end game" it has just been innovated:

 

[Kalfear]

Ultima Online, while my own starting point, simply isn't relevant to the current state of the genre. That first little battle between WoW and EQ2 (which everyone thought EQ2 was destined to win) kicked off virtually every trend we see in the MMO market to this day.

 

Likewise, stating (roughly) "well, you are stating an opinion to dispute an opinion" is tantamount to saying nothing. That's the way that debate and discussion operates.

 

I disagree

 

I think the genre is at a all time low in creativity and player loyalty BECAUSE its ignored and forgotten the lessons that came before WOW/EQ2.

 

TOR would be 1000 times better then it is if it had looked to EQ and DAoC specifically for many of their MMO elements (the same elements that get attacked daily for being veiwed as missing in TOR).

 

Whats the old line?

 

Those that forget history are bound to make the same mistakes over and over?

 

Something like that but very specific to the current state of MMORPGs (not just TOR, the whole genre) in its current state!

 

Before WOW, a majority of subscribers stayed loyal to their games for 3-4-5 years (not every game, SWG for example lost amazing numbers very fast, but many games also went forward carrying 70%-80% of their subscriber bases over multiple years). TOR has lost over 50% in under 6 months. Rift lost much the same in their run. Clearly the new style isnt working for player retention.

 

Said this in a diff thread and saiy it here

 

Based just off the released numbers, you realize that if (and Im not saying it will, just if it stays the same) TOR continues to lose subscribtions at the rate it has been (and there is no evidence to say it will not, regardless of the positive spin posters "OPINIONS"), DAoC will have a larger 12 month end subscriber population then TOR will after 12 months.

 

Clearly something is wrong.

 

Even if that doesnt come true (we will mostly find out at the 9 month investor update as that will reflect the 6 monthers end (+the free months and everything)), the fact that a game before release that was being billed as a 2-3-5 million subscriber game is even in the same subscriber area as a pre WOW game designed for 300,000-500,000 users initiall (though it did higher numbers then that at its height of popularity) sends a strong message that the NEW WOW (fast, easy, sloppy) way of design isnt working.

 

Sorry you ignore the the history of the genre and I say "this is why the genre is in such a sad state that it is"

 

A vet to me is someone that has LEARNED the different lessons through trial and error over the years. Not someone thats had everything handed to them on a silver platter for last 7 years and cant even comprehend a different and more challenging (and rewarding) style of design, as the WOW and after players can not as they havent been subject to it or seen it work/fail and why.

 

Lets try it comedy style!

If you ever said

"TOR/RIFT/WOW is to hard and grindy.....heres your sign"

 

As for the Opinion part, go read the start of this thread and the following posts

 

Dezzi is offering up his/her opinion

That first guy that ATTACKS the OP and then Dezzi isnt discussing anything, hes telling them they are wrong and he is right because his opinion is somehow fact!

 

Dezzis statement to him about opinion vrs opinion is bang on the money and totally in context of the discussion.

Heck I dont even like GW2 and I can see how Dezzi in the right on this thread vrs a bunch of pro TOR spinners who (mostly, not all) refuse to admit there is anything at all wrong with TOR. There is. There is some stuff thats right but there is a whhole whack that is also wrong in TOR.

Edited June 20, 2012 by Kalfear

[Shingara]

I think a lot of people get hung up on "GW2 has no end game! omg".

 

What they mean is that there is no end game in the traditional sense that out dated MMOs have had it. That being: level to max level, and then you can begin "raiding" the same 1 or 2 raids over and over again with a bunch of people.

 

Arenanet realized that kind of "endgame" was not fun. However there were some cool things about it.. namely fighting a big bad boss mob with a lot of other players. So rather then sticking that at level 80 they put a whole bunch of it through the entire game from levels 1 all the way to 80.

 

Combine that with the fact that the game scales your level to the content, means that you can rerun these "raids" (otherwise known in gw2 as major dynamic events) as many times as you want with your guild and still be challenged and have fun.

 

Take a look at this video to understand what GW2 is truly doing to "end game", there is TONS of "end game" it has just been innovated:

 

 

Dont want to put a fly in the ointment but tor does that already with world boss's.

[Dyvid]

Hi everyone,

 

An article was posted a few days ago on gamespy dealing with their thoughts about SWTOR current state:

 

http://pc.gamespy.com/pc/guild-wars-2/1225122p1.html

 

The article was a follow up from one they wrote back when the game was released, or maybe slightly before. It seems their writer was pretty spot on with concerns mentioned in Nov of 2011:

 

http://pc.gamespy.com/pc/bioware-mmo-project/1212884p1.html

 

Do you agree with Gamespy or does SWTOR have what it takes to compete with upcoming MMORPGS? I would be curious to hear your thoughts.

My main issue with the article is that the game isn't even out yet let alone have 6 months under it's belt. You can't say whether or not all those things are true. What seems like exciting and new can quickly become nothing but a novelty to get you in the door. Let's take up the debate six months after GW2 launches and see where this articles stands. Edited June 20, 2012 by Dyvid

[Fox_McCloud]

Dont want to put a fly in the ointment but tor does that already with world boss's.

 

And WoW did it before TOR, and EQ did it before WOW and Ultima did it before EQ.

 

World bosses are nothing new, that was not my point. Dynamic events add an entirely new level of fun to the equation and THAT is new (yes warhammer and rift have some semblance of it as well, but no where near the level that GW2 has, that would be like saying "WoW was not innovative because EQ had quests too" lol)

[DarthKhaos]

I've invested the last 11 months toward playing this game.

Ladies and gents we have an EA/BioWare board member on the forums!

[Fox_McCloud]

My main issue with the article is that the game isn't even out yet let alone have 6 months under it's belt. You can't say whether or not all those things are true. What seems like exciting and new can quickly become nothing but a novelty to get you in the door. Let's take up the debate six months after GW2 launches and see where this articles stands.

 

I can't wait for the debate in 6 months, it will be interesting to see where things are at, I agree.

 

However you have to keep in mind that a great many people are already playing GW2. Yes it is not released yet, but the mass public has already played it due to the non-NDA beta weekend events, and it seems that people feel that anet has delivered their promises, it's not just smoke and mirrors.

 

Now admittedly not everything can be tested on those beta weekends (should have another one coming up fairly soon), they also have a large amount of core testers who have experienced the later parts of the game and reported that what the weekenders experienced holds true all the way. Glowing reviews all around.

[Codek]

I think a lot of people get hung up on "GW2 has no end game! omg".

 

What they mean is that there is no end game in the traditional sense that out dated MMOs have had it. That being: level to max level, and then you can begin "raiding" the same 1 or 2 raids over and over again with a bunch of people.

 

Arenanet realized that kind of "endgame" was not fun. However there were some cool things about it.. namely fighting a big bad boss mob with a lot of other players. So rather then sticking that at level 80 they put a whole bunch of it through the entire game from levels 1 all the way to 80.

 

Combine that with the fact that the game scales your level to the content, means that you can rerun these "raids" (otherwise known in gw2 as major dynamic events) as many times as you want with your guild and still be challenged and have fun.

 

Take a look at this video to understand what GW2 is truly doing to "end game", there is TONS of "end game" it has just been innovated:

 

 

It's all still lacking the carat on a stick philosophy. You can't effectively balance characters by reducing higher levels down to that of lower levels without removing the concept of scaled stats from gears and upgrades. If the scaled gear is in, then content will be too easy because it has to be set at the level of those still moving up in the ranks who will not have the gear to match. If the gear doesn't exist then there is nothing to work for towards improving your character.

 

GW2 is trying to balance these two aspects and I have seen little evidence to support that this is even possible. The who point of endgame is to create an equal footing between characters that can work off of as a means of improvement. Content can be balanced around this threshold to create a challenge that is fair for all those that can participate. GW2 is lacking an endgame -> Lacking a means to create a balance between players -> Lacking a challenge -> lacking motivation to improve your character. Once you hit cap the game is basically over...

 

This is why many are planning to shy away from this game.

[Kalfear]

And WoW did it before TOR, and EQ did it before WOW and Ultima did it before EQ.

 

World bosses are nothing new, that was not my point. Dynamic events add an entirely new level of fun to the equation and THAT is new (yes warhammer and rift have some semblance of it as well, but no where near the level that GW2 has, that would be like saying "WoW was not innovative because EQ had quests too" lol)

 

Actually UO had no world bosses till long after EQ/AC/ and even DAoC launched!

 

There was no world bosses at the launch of UO or the launch of Trammel

 

The bosses were added after they noticed when they seperated the PVP and PVE land masses, no one was using the PVP land masses, so then (and only then) they added the world boss encounters to draw players back to using that land mass!

 

(to other poster about Vetrans status.....see this is exactly why people need to understand the history and why things were done and when. This is important cause and effect that is a lesson ALL DESIGNERS can learn from going forward.)

[Dezzi]

Ladies and gents we have an EA/BioWare board member on the forums!

 

lolwut?