Captain_Zone Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 I'm sorry I lol'd. Well played, sir. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aximand Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 I lol'd. Well played, sir. Love that picture. But yea, back on topic, Karen Traviss is a terrible author (in the Star Wars genre) for the reasons stated in this thread (and then some). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CassusVerda Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 Well, Halo sucks and SPARTANs are a bunch of sissies, so there. "Holds back urge to say something I'll regret." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CassusVerda Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 (edited) -Delete- Edited June 21, 2012 by CassusVerda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liquidacid Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 (edited) And they got absolutely whipped every single time they ever went up against the Jedi. In fact, Jango Fett killed more jedi in that one battle (that bare-handed killing crap) than the entire other compliment of Mandalorians present combined. The Mandalorians as a culture had a big fat goose egg (and still do, really) as far as fighting Jedi and Sith went, until Karen Traviss came along with her "cannot sense intentions in the Force" fighting style, which the Jedi had already faced in the Vong (couldn't sense the Vong at all, in fact, which is even worse) and made it so that Jaina's "trainer" stomped her into the ground. Because, you know, Lightsaber resistant armor and not being able to sense her opponent's intentions in the Force were so new to Jaina "Sword of the Jedi" Solo. I can't believe people are actually still trying to excuse Traviss' total (and seemingly gleeful) curb stomping of established Canon. ah more hyperbole, ignoring actual lore and misunderstanding how canon and the SW publishing systems work must be nice to make things up, throw in some opinion and then be able to claim it as fact with a straight face.. sorry but just because YOU don't like a writer or the direction they took the story in ( tho judging by your description I'm not even sure you actually read them) in a piece of work that was APPROVED by the people who actually control the IP doesn't make it suddenly it wrong ... you may be of the opinion it's bad but meh no one but you cares about your opinion and I'm sure Travis was laughing all the way to the bank to cash her checks from LL while you rage futilely about how you don't like her online sorry but what she wrote was approved by the people who actually have authority in canon so whether or not you like it changes nothing Edited June 21, 2012 by Liquidacid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CassusVerda Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 ah more hyperbole, ignoring actual lore and misunderstanding how canon and the SW publishing systems work must be nice to make things up, throw in some opinion and then be able to claim it as fact with a straight face sorry but what she wrote was approved by the people who actually have authority in canon so whether or not you like it changes nothing You know...you ever thought that maybe your misunderstanding how the SW Publishing Systems Works.... Do you work there to know that he's making this stuff up? I'm not saying what he's saying is true either, but really who are you to say he's wrong or right. Explain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
priest Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 Traviss is an excellent author. But she is a horrible Star Wars author. of course, I'm all about the Bantam Spectra era, and I think Del Rey sucks hardcore....But that's just my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liquidacid Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 (edited) You know...you ever thought that maybe your misunderstanding how the SW Publishing Systems Works.... Do you work there to know that he's making this stuff up? I'm not saying what he's saying is true either, but really who are you to say he's wrong or right. Explain. I've already done it in this thread.. multiple times.. if you really wish to know go look up how lore works... it's a very well detailed and established system by LL which controls all canon and publishing... in short LL has a team who covers canon.. before any SW EU project is published they have to give it the green.. they are lords and masters as to what is or isn't canon... everything in the EU published is canon with the exceptions of thing specifically stated not to be (Infinities comics) and things that were retconed (either changed or removed) by newer approved lore (Boba Fett being a clone and not born on Concord dawn)... now since Travis's works were ALL approved and published and then later referred to and followed in the novels afterward they are according to LL canon... Travis did nothing by herself.. every single word in every one of her novels had to meet with the approval of those who control canon.. which they did and do but again it's not about if she is a good or bad writer to me because that is opinion.. it's people trying to ignore the established rules by the owner of the IP in favor of their opinion on how it should be and then backing it up with hyperbole, incorrect lore and flat out made up facts Edited June 21, 2012 by Liquidacid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Invictos Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 ah more hyperbole, ignoring actual lore and misunderstanding how canon and the SW publishing systems work must be nice to make things up, throw in some opinion and then be able to claim it as fact with a straight face.. sorry but just because YOU don't like a writer or the direction they took the story in ( tho judging by your description I'm not even sure you actually read them) in a piece of work that was APPROVED by the people who actually control the IP doesn't make it suddenly it wrong ... you may be of the opinion it's bad but meh no one but you cares about your opinion and I'm sure Travis was laughing all the way to the bank to cash her checks from LL while you rage futilely about how you don't like her online sorry but what she wrote was approved by the people who actually have authority in canon so whether or not you like it changes nothing So your answer to what you perceive as Aximand's lack of facts or rational argument is -- an ad-hominem-laced screed that offers no facts, nor even the smallest resemblance to a rational argument? Now that you've gotten the unprovable character attack out of the way, care to answer exactly how Aximand's facts are wrong? Where is the evidence that the Mandalorians (either as a culture or in an any individual case) are great Jedi killers? Why should Luke Skywalker, Mara Jade, and Ben Skywalker have a sudden and irrepressible urge to use the Mandalorian language and revere the Mandalorian culture in Traviss' books? Does the only evidence you can cite come from Karen Traviss? If so, then do not pass GO, and do not collect $200, because you are using circular logic -- relying on evidence from Traviss' own work to argue that her work fits in the canon. It's a little like acquitting a Defendant simply because he says he's a great guy, regardless of the evidence against him. You're welcome to like Traviss; you're even welcome to construct your own Traviss-derived version of the Star Wars universe if that's what entertains you, but if you're discussing canon and continuity with others, you have to be able to look at the franchise holistically. Hyberbole, by the way, is a perfectly legitimate rhetorical device, when used correctly. A lot of people these days toss around the word hyperbole as if it were an automatic pejorative, but it seems that they, sadly, are exaggerating the depth of their own vocabularies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Invictos Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 (edited) no one but you cares about your opinion and I'm sure Travis was laughing all the way to the bank to cash her checks from LL while you rage futilely about how you don't like her online More on this, because it's always amusing when someone arguing passionately on an internet gaming forum pulls the you-have-no-life card because his opponent is -- you guessed it -- arguing on an internet gaming forum. Hell, Karen Traviss herself is famous for getting into acrimonious debates with fans on the internet, so I guess she's got no life either. And do you really think Karen Traviss sells more Halo books than Star Wars books? Yeah. Didn't think so. So why isn't she working for Lucas anymore? Hm. In fact, fiction writing is not nearly as profitable as you seem to think it is. Just ask Karen Traviss why she writes something like four books per year when the average author writes one or two over 3 years. Edited June 21, 2012 by Invictos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liquidacid Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 (edited) So your answer to what you perceive as Aximand's lack of facts or rational argument is -- an ad-hominem-laced screed that offers no facts, nor even the smallest resemblance to a rational argument? Now that you've gotten the unprovable character attack out of the way, care to answer exactly how Aximand's facts are wrong? Where is the evidence that the Mandalorians (either as a culture or in an any individual case) are great Jedi killers? Why should Luke Skywalker, Mara Jade, and Ben Skywalker have a sudden and irrepressible urge to use the Mandalorian language and revere the Mandalorian culture in Traviss' books? Does the only evidence you can cite come from Karen Traviss? If so, then do not pass GO, and do not collect $200, because you are using circular logic -- relying on evidence from Traviss' own work to argue that her work fits in the canon. It's a little like acquitting a Defendant simply because he says he's a great guy, regardless of the evidence against him. You're welcome to like Traviss; you're even welcome to construct your own Traviss-derived version of the Star Wars universe if that's what entertains you, but if you're discussing canon and continuity with others, you have to be able to look at the franchise holistically. Hyberbole, by the way, is a perfectly legitimate rhetorical device, when used correctly. A lot of people these days toss around the word hyperbole as if it were an automatic pejorative, but it seems that they, sadly, are exaggerating the depth of their own vocabularies. lol again I don't need any examples to prove him wrong... the simple fact that Travis's iteration of Mando IS NOW CANON negates the need for anything else to prove him wrong... till LL or GL says otherwise it's fact like it or not but go ahead and start with the Mandalorian Wars... sure they lost in the end but they were the bad guys after all... not to mention almost every single book or sourcebook that has mando's in it lists them as jedi killers and they are all lore More on this, because it's always amusing when someone arguing passionately on an internet gaming forum pulls the you-have-no-life card -- simply because the other person is, you guessed it, arguing on an internet gaming forum. Hell, Karen Traviss herself is famous for getting into acrimonious debates with fans on the internet, so I guess she's got no life either.. never said anyone had no life... you really shouldn't assume... kinda comes of as you projecting... just a simple statement that no matter who dislikes what she wrote it's still lore and she (and everyone at LL and LA that made profit from it) are most likely laughing there *** off at people hating and arguing over it while they rake in the cash from us buying the book we are arguing over Edited June 21, 2012 by Liquidacid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Invictos Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 lol again I don't need any examples to prove him wrong... the simple fact that Travis's iteration of Mando IS NOW CANON negates the need for anything else to prove him wrong... till LL or GL says otherwise it's fact like it or not but go ahead and start with the Mandalorian Wars... sure they lost in the end but they were the bad guys after all... not to mention almost every single book or sourcebook that has mando's in it lists them as jedi killers and they are all lore Exactly, circular logic. Your rebuttal to the charge that Traviss' work doesn't fit with established canon is to cite Traviss' work as canon. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liquidacid Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 (edited) Exactly, circular logic. Your rebuttal to the charge that Traviss' work doesn't fit with established canon is to cite Traviss' work as canon. Thank you. unfortunately you still don't seem to grasp the simple concept of how SW canon works... the only people's opinion on the what is and isn't lore that counts are those at LL... I wasn't arguing with him over opinion of whether it fits or not I was arguing over what if ACTAL lore or not... if they say it fits than it is a fact and now fits the SW universe conforms to it... our opinion on the matter doesn't change it... hell I still haven't even voiced my opinion for or against her take on mando's also I gave you an example not even by Travis which depicts them in the same manner she does Edited June 21, 2012 by Liquidacid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Invictos Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 (edited) never said anyone had no life... you really shouldn't assume... just a simple statement that no matter who dislikes what she wrote it's still lore and she (and everyone at LL and LA that made profit from it) are most likely laughing there *** off at people hating and arguing over it while they rake in the cash from us buying the book we are arguing over Your commentary is irrelevant and (laughably attempts to be) insulting; that was the point. Whether anyone is raking in the cash (and I think it's interesting that you chose not to respond to my question about the Halo franchise's profitability versus the Star Wars' franchise's profitability) -- regardless of who may be laughing at whom, we're all here arguing on the internet. I could just as easily argue that the great Karen Traviss secretly thinks you're pathetic for spending so much passionately defending her. You're a talifan too, in other words; you just happen to be on her side. But that kind of talk gets us nowhere. Either you're interested in discussing the topic at hand or you're not. Edited June 21, 2012 by Invictos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Invictos Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 unfortunately you still don't seem to grasp the simple concept of how SW canon works... the only people's opinion on the what is and isn't lore that counts are those at LL... if they say it fits than it is a fact and now fits the SW universe conforms to it... our opinion on the matter doesn't change it... hell I still haven't even voiced my opinion for or against her take on mando's And yet she no longer works there, and at around the time she left, TCW unleashed a giant effing retcon of her work. Odd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liquidacid Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 (edited) Your commentary is irrelevant and (laughably attempts to be) insulting; that was the point. Whether anyone is raking in the cash (and I think it's interesting that you chose not to respond to my question about the Halo franchise's profitability versus the Star Wars' franchise's profitability) -- regardless of who may be laughing at whom, we're all here arguing on the internet. I could just as easily argue that the great Karen Traviss secretly thinks you're pathetic for spending so much passionately defending her. You're a talifan too, in other words; you just happen to be on her side. and again I haven't defended her... simply stated the FACTS about how the lore works and what is and isn't lore... And yet she no longer works there, and at around the time she left, TCW unleashed a giant effing retcon of her work. Odd. so you don't understand how writers work ... you know Zahn doesn't work for LL either.. nor do almost any of the EU writers... they come in sign up for a project, finish it and leave... maybe they do another later on maybe they don't .. it's not a steady job it's a per project contract basis (shh which is why all the SW EU novel writers write other novels now owned by LA or LL) Edited June 21, 2012 by Liquidacid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mirdthestrill Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 Okay, I'm done arguing about this. We're at a stalemate, and I'm not interested in pursuing something that has been debated to this point and farther THREE TIMES ALREADY. All the good arguments have been used here: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=378497 This was much more civil and made more sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aximand Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 ah more hyperbole, ignoring actual lore and misunderstanding how canon and the SW publishing systems work must be nice to make things up, throw in some opinion and then be able to claim it as fact with a straight face.. sorry but just because YOU don't like a writer or the direction they took the story in in a piece of work that was APPROVED by the people who actually control the IP doesn't make it suddenly it wrong ... you may be of the opinion it's bad but meh no one but you cares about your opinion and I'm sure Travis was laughing all the way to the bank to cash her checks from LL while you rage futilely about how you don't like her online sorry but what she wrote was approved by the people who actually have authority in canon so whether or not you like it changes nothing And I still don't see how your disingenuous accusations of hyperbole and making things up prove my point of the Mandalorians not having a very good (read: terrible) record of fighting Jedi. Because they don't. If you're not going to contribute constructively, don't contribute at all. The facts stand as this: Mandalorians have an absolute crap record of when they, as a people, go up against Jedi or Sith, with Jango Fett being an outlying factor, he was just that good. Boba Fett, the supposed best person to learn how to hunt Jedi from, has one Canonical capture under his belt, and that was against a half trained Padawan. Jaina could have learned how to beat Jacen from her uncle Luke, who had already won against Jacen in a Lightsaber fight once already, but Karen Traviss absolutely needed to inject Mandalorians into the plot line because she's absolute pants at writing anything else (not that her Mandalorians are all that well written in the first place...). Whenever the Mandalorians ragged on the Jedi around Jaina, which includes everyone in her family except her father, I might add, she offered absolutely no rebuttal and in fact just sat there and contemplated the mighty Mandalorian's words. Jaina was so lax in defense of her family and way of life I'm surprised she didn't start saying "thank you Sir may I have another". Karen Traviss wrote Luke Skywalker, Mara Jade and a few other characters as actually thinking like a Mandalorian, a culture with which all of these characters had absolutely no interaction with beyond either temporary alliances or from opposite sides of a conflict. She completely ignored the entire New Jedi Order with how she made Jaina unable to fight against enemies who wore Lightsaber proof armor, and who's intentions she was unable to sense in the Force. Jain developed the tactics with which the Jedi used to fight the Yuuzhan Vong, overcoming (and thriving against) the exact same deficiencies that Traviss imposed upon her. She completely re-wrote Mara Jade's personality, making her bumble around like that white girl in horror movies that you just know is going to trip at the worst possible moment and get killed. Not only that, but she also made Mara's death absolutely meaningless as a sacrifice to Jacen's Sithy credentials when she later had him reason away that he killed her in self defense, completely negating the sacrificial part of killing her. Not that it was a big sacrifice to start with, seeing as how he had a wife or daughter that would have done much better. I don't care if other people like her, that's their business and they can have whatever preferences they want, but to pretend she didn't rewrite established Star Wars Canon and trample all over other author's characters is complete willful ignorance on anyone's part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Invictos Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 (edited) so you don't understand how writers work ... you know Zahn doesn't work for LL either.. nor do almost any of the EU writers... they come in sign up for a project, finish it and leave... maybe they do another later on maybe they don't .. it's not a steady job it's a per project contract basis (shh which is why all the SW EU novel writers write other novels now owned by LA or LL) LOL. So now you're saying that Karen Traviss could come back to Star Wars? Buddy, she's gone. They don't want her back. She made a big stink about leaving. You can try to nitpick me all you want based on your oh-so-extensive, wikipedia-derived knowledge of the publishing biz, but you and I both know Traviss is done working for (or WITH) LucasFilm. (EDIT) Also, way to latch onto an irrelevant nitpick and not address the giant retcon of Traviss' work. Edited June 21, 2012 by Invictos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aximand Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 (edited) LOL. So now you're saying that Karen Traviss could come back to Star Wars? Buddy, she's gone. They don't want her back. She made a big stink about leaving. You can try to nitpick me all you want based on your oh-so-extensive, wikipedia-derived knowledge of the publishing biz, but you and I both know Traviss is done working for (or WITH) LucasFilm. (EDIT) Also, way to latch onto an irrelevant nitpick and not address the giant retcon of Traviss' work. There's a disturbing tendency that the people who defend Traviss' Star Wars work have to try to change the topic, make attacks against other people's character or descend to petty insults in order to bully people around to their way of thinking or make them quit the debate outright. A lot like Ms. Traviss herself, now that I think about it. I hate to see this because if they could actually bring some concrete evidence to the table and present it in a polite and constructive manner then these debates would be a lot more enjoyable. Instead, most of what I see refuting my posts is "Nuh uh! You're wrong lalalalalalalalala!" Edited June 21, 2012 by Aximand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain_Zone Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 There's a disturbing tendency that the people who defend Traviss' Star Wars work have to try to change the topic, make attacks against other people's character or descend to petty insults in order to bully people around to their way of thinking or make them quit the debate outright. A lot like Ms. Traviss herself, now that I think about it. I hate to see this because if they could actually bring some concrete evidence to the table and present it in a polite and constructive manner then these debates would be a lot more enjoyable. Instead, most of what I see refuting my posts is "Nuh uh! You're wrong lalalalalalalalala!" Not to mention that just from how she writes Boba Fett, she wants to have his children. Fett, being a practical man, however, would see her as an old troll and not worth a second glance. Her unrequited love must be burning her up inside. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Invictos Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 (edited) There's a disturbing tendency that the people who defend Traviss' Star Wars work have to try to change the topic, make attacks against other people's character or descend to petty insults in order to bully people around to their way of thinking or make them quit the debate outright. A lot like Ms. Traviss herself, now that I think about it. I hate to see this because if they could actually bring some concrete evidence to the table and present it in a polite and constructive manner then these debates would be a lot more enjoyable. Instead, most of what I see refuting my posts is "Nuh uh! You're wrong lalalalalalalalala!" Can't disagree with your observation, at least not with respect to this particular thread. You've made some excellent points, regardless. One last note about the whole writers-work-on-a-project-by-project-basis nitpick thing: Karen Traviss, herself, admits that she was under contract to write another novel for the Star Wars franchise when she quit (or was fired). So in this case, LiquidAcid's comment was not just functionally irrelevant and willfully disingenuous (comparing Zahn's freelance status to Traviss' freelance status, as if Traviss' standing were no worse than any other writer's, as if she's simply "between projects" with LucasFilm instead of gone forever); his comment was functionally inaccurate. Traviss was, in fact, in LucasFilm's employ when ties were cut. If Liquid wants to protest that Traviss cut ties purely of her own accord, then he's welcome to try, but that's a different argument. SIdenote: Traviss seems content to admit that her decisions have been reversed in canon. Strange that Liquid won't admit it. Edited June 22, 2012 by Invictos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain_Zone Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 (edited) Can't disagree with your observation, at least not with respect to this particular thread. You've made some excellent points, regardless. One last note about the whole writers-work-on-a-project-by-project-basis nitpick thing: Karen Traviss, herself, admits that she was under contract to write another novel for the Star Wars franchise when she quit (or was fired). So in this case, LiquidAcid's comment was not just functionally irrelevant and willfully disingenuous (comparing Zahn's freelance status to Traviss' freelance status, as if Traviss' standing were no worse than any other writer's, as if she's simply "between projects" with LucasFilm instead of gone forever); his comment was functionally inaccurate. Traviss was, in fact, in LucasFilm's employ when ties were cut. If Liquid wants to protest that Traviss cut ties purely of her own accord, then he's welcome to try, but that's a different argument. SIdenote: Traviss seems content to admit that her decisions have been reversed in canon. Strange that Liquid won't admit it. Does her arrogance know no bounds? My interpretation of the Rules of Writing Star Wars: 1. NEVER piss off the fans without good reason! 2. If your reason is bad, then suffer the consequences! 3. If you indeed, in the course of your tenure, piss off the fans, then you shall suffer the slings and arrows of the fans' wrath with grace and style. 4. If you kill off a popular and well loved character, expect to be labelled as "The Worst Writer Of All Time" for at least a few years. 5. Failure to do #3 and/or #4 will result in you being terminated from writing Star Wars for the rest of your natural life (assuming a rabid doesn't get you first). DISCLAIMER: The above rules are meant as a joke, and are not to be taken seriously. Edited June 22, 2012 by Captain_Zone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Invictos Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 Not to mention that just from how she writes Boba Fett, she wants to have his children. Fett, being a practical man, however, would see her as an old troll and not worth a second glance. Her unrequited love must be burning her up inside. Hope he's got whine-proof armor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Invictos Posted June 22, 2012 Share Posted June 22, 2012 Does her arrogance know no bounds? Heh, reading that blog is a bit like reading a method-actor's treatise on narcissism, isn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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