Healers are fine. Perfectly fine. In fact probably a little more than fine.

[Achyllis]

guard + taunt stacking is the dumbest thing ever. 80% damage reduction is absolutely retarded, topple that with the opponents defensive CD's and you are just beating on a wall. You can't attack the healer because you are taunted and he's guarded and you can't attack the tank because he is just going to be spam healed. Taunts should not stack with guard, period.

 

Despite that, healing is still too strong. Chasing around an operative healer who can run and spam heals is absolutely stupid. Beating on a merc healer who can't be interrupted with a shield up is beyond stupid. Healers should be a buffer, not an equalizer. Heals should never be able to out do dps ever.

 

Another "I can't kill healers in two shots" complaint? Go play CoD or Halo if you want one hit kills. This game is objective based and not made for duels anyway.

 

Perhaps you should petition for a dps only 2 v 2 arena?

[AKfourtyseven]

I wouldn't favor increasing tank DPS to Assassin levels, but there are other ways to make tanks a more legitimate pain in the hindquarters.

 

In addition to stuns, I'd further capitalize on the "nuisance factor" that the tanks are supposed to provide by design. Something like one or several of the following. Low-cooldown roots, more, better interrupts (a la Annihilation Marauder with 6 sec main interrupt and a melee range charge with a reduced cooldown), better debuffs, like making the attacker take %% of the damage he's causing, unique specific buff-removing skills, like slapping Undying Rage off that Marauder, Entrench off that Sniper, etc, etc.

 

Yeah, those would fit well.

 

Its a concrete fact that most tanks in tank gear simply do not provide enough of a nuisance to warrant being fouced and if people arent focuing the tank then the tank is only doing half of their job. The more skills a tank has to make people think "that guy is really pissing me off, he needs to die!" the better.

 

In my own experience, this is much more easily achieved running dps or hybrid spec in tank stance than it is is tank spec with tank gear. That is a problem...

Edited June 18, 2012 by AKfourtyseven

[Helig]

Yeah, those would fit well.

 

Its a concrete fact that most tanks in tank gear simply do not provide enough of a nuisance to warrant being fouced and if people arent focuing the tank then the tank is only doing half of their job. The more skills a tank has to make people think "that guy is really pissing me off, he needs to die!" the better.

 

In my own experience, this is much more easily achieved running dps or hybrid spec in tank stance than it is is tank spec with tank gear. That is a problem...

Yup. Running Vigilance\Defense hybrid in Stamina-heavy damage gear for a tank spec (although I'm exploring full Vigilance now), and it works pretty well.

[Chairbornrangerx]

I think the reality that causes consternation is how easy it is to chew up a healer being left to dangle in the wind versus how darn near impossible it is to get a healer that is being well supported by guard/taunt/peel/cross-heals.

 

When I have even the smallest amount of help in a WZ (ie I'm not just simply 1 on 1'ing someone) I know it generally takes 2-3 focus'ing on my sage healer to take me down.

 

Like Paul said, Its when we are left high and dry when I get pissed off as a healer. It seems no amount of CC'ing can get me out of some 1 on 1 situations. I just get frustrated having to point out to most PUG teams that as the only healer on their team in a match, they MIGHT want to keep an eye out for me as I try to keep THEM alive.

 

I love playing my sage healer! Sure a little less since 1.2 but I still consistently do over 300k healing in most matches.

[Raansu]

Another "I can't kill healers in two shots" complaint? Go play CoD or Halo if you want one hit kills. This game is objective based and not made for duels anyway.

 

Perhaps you should petition for a dps only 2 v 2 arena?

 

Oh look, an operative healer who thinks he should be allowed to face tank dps.

[Kunda]

Considering i can leap to a healer and ignore any tank (and i mean tank... tank spec, tank gear) who isnt powertech for the entire duration it takes me to kill the healer, then turn around and deal with the tank? The two are intrinsically connected.

 

Tanks producing "significant" amounts of DPS? You must be talking about assassins in DPS gear or maybe Powertechs. You sure as hell arent talking about the Jugg/guardian in tank gear, i know that much.

 

You're 2v1'ing guarded tanks and healers?

[Varicite]

You're 2v1'ing guarded tanks and healers?

 

Well, his point is that it SHOULD be a 2v1, but it doesn't feel like one.

 

Instead, it feels like killing a healer, and then killing a tank in succession, not simultaneously. And there's a rather large difference.

 

I can kinda agree w/ his sentiment, as I don't often have to deal specifically w/ the tank themselves in most cases when I am playing DPS until after I've already neutralized the healer they were guarding. It's pretty rare that I see tanks that are good enough to make me actually care about them, instead of just shutting down their healer from.. healing, and slowly killing it at the same time.

[Astarica]

I forgot who posted this before, but guarding a healer and protecting a healer are two totally different things.

 

Slap a Guard on a Sage healer and that tells me two free kills instead of one. That's why I rarely slap Guard on anyone but I sure protect them to my best ability. I save all my good CCs to deal with the guy attacking the healer. Most of the time I don't bother using them to defend myself because it's more valuable to stun the guy attacking the healer as opposed to stunning the guy attacking you.

[Azraelstrom]

I slightly disagree with the OP. I think healspecs are overpowered, and they're ruining PVP because half the team is rolling healspec in every match.

 

Why is that a bad thing? Well, I've played numerous Voidstar matches in which no one planted on either side because both teams are just camping and healing each other. While that already sounds boring, the other annoying part is no one other than healers and tanks are getting badges since no one is dying. Similar results happen for other wzs, just not AS bad. However, I think it's complete BS when more than two people on the opposing team are healspec. Even if you try to focus kill one of them, they can completely outheal any damage. Needs to be fixed.

[AKfourtyseven]

Well, his point is that it SHOULD be a 2v1, but it doesn't feel like one.

 

Instead, it feels like killing a healer, and then killing a tank in succession, not simultaneously. And there's a rather large difference.

 

I can kinda agree w/ his sentiment, as I don't often have to deal specifically w/ the tank themselves in most cases when I am playing DPS until after I've already neutralized the healer they were guarding. It's pretty rare that I see tanks that are good enough to make me actually care about them, instead of just shutting down their healer from.. healing, and slowly killing it at the same time.

 

Yep, exactly.

[LancelotOC]

I slightly disagree with the OP. I think healspecs are overpowered, and they're ruining PVP because half the team is rolling healspec in every match.

 

Why is that a bad thing? Well, I've played numerous Voidstar matches in which no one planted on either side because both teams are just camping and healing each other. While that already sounds boring, the other annoying part is no one other than healers and tanks are getting badges since no one is dying. Similar results happen for other wzs, just not AS bad. However, I think it's complete BS when more than two people on the opposing team are healspec. Even if you try to focus kill one of them, they can completely outheal any damage. Needs to be fixed.

 

I fought in a WZ with 4 Pyro PTs yesterday. How is getting pulled, flamed, and killed by rail shot spam in record time ok but not taking as long to die something that needs to be fixed?

 

You represent it as if 3 healers can keep everyone up and themselves indefinatly. It's not at all true unless everyone attacking them is in recruit gear and they are in warhero. Or if on top of three healers you have tanks detaunting and guarding. In which case it's not you can't kill the three healers but you can't kill the three healers and all the supporting tanks.

 

Three of the eight Advanced classes are healers. Since everyone pays the same amount shouldn't at least one of each class be allowed in a warzone? That would make it three healers per warzone as the normal.

[fungihoujo]

2v2, 2 DPS versus healer and tank- you have many options for handling it. First, you can just go ahead and kill the healer, quite easy to lock down and prevent any healing, if you really want to you can peel the tank off- guard's only 15m. The healer has to either run around and lose guard, or facetank with guard- either way, easy to handle for dps.

 

It'll take a bit longer- but you'll be killing and tank and healer at the same time- if you get a taunt, the DPS with the taunt hits the tank for the duration, while the other one focuses the healer more to keep them shut down than to actually kill- again, the healer has to either stay near the tank and thus be very easy to keep in range even for melee- with short interrupts and CC, easy to at least shut down the main heal, and likely prevent most other heals. After the taunt- lay back on the healer.

 

Until guard gives interrupt immunity and CC reduction as part of the package, it only gives the healer more time to survive, but with both tank and healer taking lots of damage, eventually the healer will not be able to keep up with the damage on both of them.

 

In the end- good DPS will still 2v2 a tank and healer, it'll just take a lot longer than 2v2 versus two DPS. Fancy that, a healer tank combo taking more time to kill, heaven forbid there be a single challenge in this game's extremely low TTK pvp.

 

Even with a tank/healer combo- those geared in full WH with augments, provided they're a good AC, still dish out very heavy damage very quickly.

[Astarica]

CCing the tank or the healer really doesn't work when you consider in general, healer and tanks have better CC abilities than DPS classes. Yes there are exceptions but in general, DPS is supposed to do damage and tanks/heals use CC to buy time, not the other way around. Take the easiest to use CC with a significant impact, the 8 second in combat mez. Only Sorc and Merc can access it, and both can potentially be healer and neither are feared as DPS.

 

It is far more likely a DPS gets thrown to a spot where he can't touch the healer than getting the healer/tank separated. Pull/Push abilities are again, generally more available to characters that are not DPS.

[fungihoujo]

CCing the tank or the healer really doesn't work when you consider in general, healer and tanks have better CC abilities than DPS classes. Yes there are exceptions but in general, DPS is supposed to do damage and tanks/heals use CC to buy time, not the other way around. Take the easiest to use CC with a significant impact, the 8 second in combat mez. Only Sorc and Merc can access it, and both can potentially be healer and neither are feared as DPS.

 

It is far more likely a DPS gets thrown to a spot where he can't touch the healer than getting the healer/tank separated. Pull/Push abilities are again, generally more available to characters that are not DPS.

 

Not really- most of the heal trees are actually devoid of meaningful extra CC. Also, snipers and marauders get instant, aoe mezzes- compare to a sorc's single target, 2 second cast mez.

 

A PT pyrotech or dps shadow have pulls for peeling, PT has two stuns. Marauders can have 3 abilities with 3 second roots each- two of which are on very low CDs and the third is under half a minute CD.

 

Unless you can actually show me some of these DPS classes with poor CC compared to some tanks/healers that have significantly better CC? I understand that's what it should be- but that's absolutely not the truth.

[Astarica]

Not really- most of the heal trees are actually devoid of meaningful extra CC. Also, snipers and marauders get instant, aoe mezzes- compare to a sorc's single target, 2 second cast mez.

 

A PT pyrotech or dps shadow have pulls for peeling, PT has two stuns. Marauders can have 3 abilities with 3 second roots each- two of which are on very low CDs and the third is under half a minute CD.

 

Unless you can actually show me some of these DPS classes with poor CC compared to some tanks/healers that have significantly better CC? I understand that's what it should be- but that's absolutely not the truth.

 

Mez doesn't work through Guard unless you focus on the tank first which is pretty much what the healer want you to do anyway.

 

If you have Force Pull you're definiltely classified as a tank for an Assassin.

 

PT's probably one of the exception since they have grapple even in a clearly not tank role.

 

Since Marauder is melee range, you either root the healer which is just the same as DPSing him (may work, may not), or you root the tank except now you got to melee him too. It's not like your root lasts so long that you can root the tank and then immediately leap away to the healer, and even if you have the reflex to pull that off, PT/Sin can pull you back and Jugg can intercede/charge back up.

 

2 DPS can beat a healer + tank by just doing enough DPS to the healer but it is almost never because they have better CCs. Root isn't going to create 15m of separation which is what you need to defeat Guard, and Guard automatically defeats mezzes since ideally you want to mez tank and then DPS healer, except this won't work as the Guard damage would immediately break your CC.

[fungihoujo]

Mez the taunt- if tank and healer are in guard range an aoe mez will hit both of them. Once taunt is up you're free to damage both at the same time by just hitting the healer, and with two dps it's extremely easy to prevent all non instant heals, and to keep them slowed/rooted most of the time meaning they're facetanking- which against 2 dps, is death even through guard. If they try to run- they're out of guard.

 

In the end- healer's best defense is running and not facetanking- but when guarded that advantage mostly vanishes since they can't run. Trade one defense for another. Ultimately- a healer doesn't survive 1 dps, so with 50% damage reduction- provided you manage the taunts effectively- 2 dps will also kill a healer.

 

If not as quickly- no healer will keep up with the damage on himself and the tank- when one goes down, the other follows fast.

 

DPS aren't at some disadvantage- played well the good ones are better than ever with the low TTK- there's only one counter- and it's a counter that's not common, takes organization and at best isn't really a counter but a temporary stalemate.

[mikedee]

This is qq from a sent/mara. I guess he really thinks he should be able to faceroll everything. Same guy that defends his class to the last straw saying it is not op at all. He is a bad player. Its a L2P issue. By the way what server are you on and what is your toon name? Would like to know when I roll over you. You think healers are so good make one and repost. Try a sage/sorc healer.

[Laforet]

This is qq from a sent/mara. I guess he really thinks he should be able to faceroll everything. Same guy that defends his class to the last straw saying it is not op at all. He is a bad player. Its a L2P issue. By the way what server are you on and what is your toon name? Would like to know when I roll over you. You think healers are so good make one and repost. Try a sage/sorc healer.

 

Haha dont make he do that mikey, hes going to roll a sage, spec 31 points in seer tree, stand still casting AoE while people kill him.

 

He will die a lot of times, his team will die a lot of times, but the AoE will make his numbers look good.

 

Then he will log on forums, post a screenshot of a 15 min VS match that his team lost and will say "healers are fine".

[Superawesomerman]

Haha dont make he do that mikey, hes going to roll a sage, spec 31 points in seer tree, stand still casting AoE while people kill him.

 

He will die a lot of times, his team will die a lot of times, but the AoE will make his numbers look good.

 

Then he will log on forums, post a screenshot of a 15 min VS match that his team lost and will say "healers are fine".

 

Had to lol at this one, but to be honest I feel more useful on my bikini sage than my sent recently. Probably because bastion has way fewer healers.

[Laforet]

Had to lol at this one, but to be honest I feel more useful on my bikini sage than my sent recently. Probably because bastion has way fewer healers.

 

I too feel better on my sage than on my pyrotech.

 

Healers are rare. Competent healers are rare between the rare.

 

It doesnt means that the game is balanced, if i make one mistake as a sage im dead meat, almost any pyrotech (even trash ones) will pose an iminent threat if they are geared.

 

If i make one mistake on my ptech i usually can get away with it, except against a scoundrel healer, those buggers are OP too.

 

Running my pyrotech is childs play if compared to sage. Im not saying im the best ptech ever, i actually suck at it because i put almost no effort and im not top geared, but the class is so damn easy that it takes about half an hour and unmodded BM gear to get decent at it.

 

I imagine what kind of damage a top notch player playing a ptech will do, fortunately for us 90% of pyrotechs are half assed backpedallers that think that a class with heavy armor and a 25% damage reduction CD is a glass cannon. They think they are supossed to facetank backpedall maras/juggs and if they die its because they are a glass cannon.

 

I wonder, if the ptech is a glass cannon, whats a sorc supossed to be? A paper scissors? What about scrappers? Stealthy glass with no cannon?

[mikedee]

I agree laforet with everything you said. I just don't get why players like professor post things like this. This goes with the post Sents/maras are fine, my sent sucks, my pt sucks. Blah blah blah. Reverse threads from baddies to try to get things not corrected. I guess he thinks gear = skill too. Talking about dps numbers like that makes him good. He SHOULD be able to 1v3 and kill a healer with guard, the tank, and the dps rolling together or it is fine...Jokes!

[fungihoujo]

I agree laforet with everything you said. I just don't get why players like professor post things like this. This goes with the post Sents/maras are fine, my sent sucks, my pt sucks. Blah blah blah. Reverse threads from baddies to try to get things not corrected. I guess he thinks gear = skill too. Talking about dps numbers like that makes him good. He SHOULD be able to 1v3 and kill a healer with guard, the tank, and the dps rolling together or it is fine...Jokes!

 

Pretty much summed up the professor right there. Anything to keep things the way they are and stifle discussion on the problems of other classes.

 

But what do you expect from someone who defends having so many defensive CDs as a marauder as being fine, then turns around and says because healers aren't tanks it's fine for them to have no defensives because a tank should be there to protect them and keep them alive.

 

 

By that logic- as dps, shouldn't a mara have to rely on a healer rather than defensives to stay alive? But, why use the logic you use to say other classes are fine on your own class if it proved your class had an advantage?

[Astarica]

I actually think it's fine DPS don't need healers to fend for themselves. Problem is there are only 2 DPS that can do that (Tankasin + Marauder) which obviously makes thing rather unfair for the DPS that'd have no shot of surviving without a healer. If you're say a PT, one of the more durable 'rest of the DPS' classes really, and someone tell you 'no heals for you this WZ', you'd probably be looking at an over/under of 5 seconds until you die after Energy Shield runs out, and probably a 25% chance you die while Energy Shield is up.

 

Now that by itself is not inherently unfair except you got two classes who can do comparable damage without worrying about dying in 5 seconds after their only good defensive CD runs out.

Edited June 19, 2012 by Astarica

[Superawesomerman]

Pretty much summed up the professor right there. Anything to keep things the way they are and stifle discussion on the problems of other classes.

 

But what do you expect from someone who defends having so many defensive CDs as a marauder as being fine, then turns around and says because healers aren't tanks it's fine for them to have no defensives because a tank should be there to protect them and keep them alive.

 

 

By that logic- as dps, shouldn't a mara have to rely on a healer rather than defensives to stay alive? But, why use the logic you use to say other classes are fine on your own class if it proved your class had an advantage?

 

I would hate to be in his class. He probably onLy passes suckups or people he wants something from.

 

Logic plays no part, only rhetoric.

[mikedee]

I would hate to be in his class. He probably onLy passes suckups or people he wants something from.

 

Logic plays no part, only rhetoric.

 

So quick to defend your class you didn't even make sense in your response.

 

I forgot all you guys are up in arms defending your class together....seems your comments more apply to u. Make some more funny stories of how your class isn't good or good enough.