Healers are fine. Perfectly fine. In fact probably a little more than fine.

[ProfessorWalsh]

Stop using that word incorrectly. Please.

 

I'm sorry you don't know what the word mitigate means AlyxDinas, but I did use it correctly. If someone can do something which cancels out a negative effect someone else applies that certainly does apply here.

 

In this case, Bounty Hunters can increase healing received by 20% ... Sentinels can reduce healing received by 20%...

 

Thus if a Bounty Hunter uses their shield after we use our Crippling Throw then they gasp mitigate the effect of our Crippling Throw.

 

Here this might help you:

 

mit·i·gat·ing.

verb (used with object)

1. to lessen in force or intensity, as wrath, grief, harshness, or pain; moderate.

2. to make less severe: to mitigate a punishment.

3. to make (a person, one's state of mind, disposition, etc.) milder or more gentle; mollify; appease.

 

I'm pretty sure adding 20% extra healing, when we apply a 20% penalty to healing definitely lessens in force or intensity the effect of our crippling throw. In fact it makes it as though our crippling throw didn't exist. Absolutely adding 20% more healing when we took it away makes the loss of healing less severe.

Edited June 23, 2012 by ProfessorWalsh

[Adiari]

Bounty Hunter - Power Tech - 4th Tier Talent Ability: Protective Shield - Increases all healing received by 10% with 1 talent point, 20% with 2 talent points.

 

Our trauma only does 20% thus they can mitigate Trauma by their Protective shield. To my knowledge Sorcerers can't do that.

 

Alright, I assume you mean the Combat Shield talent that boosts healing done to ourselves whilst we have our Reactive Shield active? That is a 2 minute cooldown and you can have Trauma up constantly on a target. So it's not so much a big deal

[Adiari]

gasp[/i] mitigate the effect of our Crippling Throw.

 

Here this might help you:

 

mit·i·gat·ing.

verb (used with object)

1. to lessen in force or intensity, as wrath, grief, harshness, or pain; moderate.

2. to make less severe: to mitigate a punishment.

3. to make (a person, one's state of mind, disposition, etc.) milder or more gentle; mollify; appease.

 

Erm... No? Beacuse we negate it, not lessen it =p. We stop it entierly, which is not lessen. =p

 

But really? Who cares? XD

Edited June 23, 2012 by Adiari

[ProfessorWalsh]

Alright, I assume you mean the Combat Shield talent that boosts healing done to ourselves whilst we have our Reactive Shield active? That is a 2 minute cooldown and you can have Trauma up constantly on a target. So it's not so much a big deal

 

As to keeping it up constantly we can theoretically do that. I say theoretically only because keeping it up constantly is very hard to do. It has a 12 second cooldown for one, though yes a 15 second duration, but it also has a 3 focus cost. Also, and this is something a lot of people don't notice, is the fact that it can miss. If it misses then it doesn't apply damage or the trauma.

 

(This is kind of like how Force Leap can miss and when it does it doesn't apply the root.)

[Adiari]

As to keeping it up constantly we can theoretically do that. I say theoretically only because keeping it up constantly is very hard to do. It has a 12 second cooldown for one, though yes a 15 second duration, but it also has a 3 focus cost. Also, and this is something a lot of people don't notice, is the fact that it can miss. If it misses then it doesn't apply damage or the trauma.

 

(This is kind of like how Force Leap can miss and when it does it doesn't apply the root.)

 

Yeah, I understand it's not viable to keep up on a target all the time, you'd nerf your own damage to much and so on, but the fact we can negate the effect of truma is kinda... Not all that great, really. Once every two minutes is not that great, where as a Sage has it's shield that is not effected by your truma, they can Force Speed out of LoS of you, and so on. I don’t even know why I am making this point really. Just that I don’t agree that Commando’s can negate truma makes them all that great.

[ProfessorWalsh]

Yeah, I understand it's not viable to keep up on a target all the time, you'd nerf your own damage to much and so on, but the fact we can negate the effect of truma is kinda... Not all that great, really. Once every two minutes is not that great, where as a Sage has it's shield that is not effected by your truma, they can Force Speed out of LoS of you, and so on. I don’t even know why I am making this point really. Just that I don’t agree that Commando’s can negate truma makes them all that great.

 

Well here is where the real problem comes in Adiari.

 

When you get Trauma it is a 20% debuff. No way to raise it.

 

At that time people have "100%" of all healing in PVP. Yes, yes, I know that 30% is lost because it is PVP but that really doesn't matter. The base you have in PVP is 100% base healing. This is fine and dandy in baby PVP. (Aka pre 50 PVP.)

 

Then however you get your Battlemaster and War Hero gear. This eventually gets you to around +13-15% Healing.

 

Now you are at 115% healing *all the time* in PVP. Meaning Trauma, which used to drop you down to 80% now can only drop you down to 95% Now add the shield in and you are at 115% again.

 

The main issue is that your expertise naturally is already making the Sentinel/Gunslinger/Sniper/Marauder Trauma less impacting than it was because you are always getting a +13-15% boost. In order for Trauma to drop you back down to 80% we'd have to drop you by around 35% instead of by 20% and with the loss of damage, the high focus cost, the chance of it not working at all, and the fact that it can be mitigated (or negated if you prefer) makes Trauma really crappy once people gear up.

[Gnugthreeonefive]

Healers are fine, but DPS r better =D

[matslarson]

Well here is where the real problem comes in Adiari.

 

When you get Trauma it is a 20% debuff. No way to raise it.

 

At that time people have "100%" of all healing in PVP. Yes, yes, I know that 30% is lost because it is PVP but that really doesn't matter. The base you have in PVP is 100% base healing. This is fine and dandy in baby PVP. (Aka pre 50 PVP.)

 

Then however you get your Battlemaster and War Hero gear. This eventually gets you to around +13-15% Healing.

 

Now you are at 115% healing *all the time* in PVP. Meaning Trauma, which used to drop you down to 80% now can only drop you down to 95% Now add the shield in and you are at 115% again.

 

The main issue is that your expertise naturally is already making the Sentinel/Gunslinger/Sniper/Marauder Trauma less impacting than it was because you are always getting a +13-15% boost. In order for Trauma to drop you back down to 80% we'd have to drop you by around 35% instead of by 20% and with the loss of damage, the high focus cost, the chance of it not working at all, and the fact that it can be mitigated (or negated if you prefer) makes Trauma really crappy once people gear up.

 

This entire post completely ignores the fact that while WH gear gives healers +13-15% healing, it also gives DPS +~20% damage to every single attack you do. What you're asking for is a skill that removes the bonus we got by grinding our *** off for better gear, and you can have it when healers get a skill that puts you back in Recruits as well.

[AlyxDinas]

I'm sorry you don't know what the word mitigate means AlyxDinas, but I did use it correctly. If someone can do something which cancels out a negative effect someone else applies that certainly does apply here.

 

In this case, Bounty Hunters can increase healing received by 20% ... Sentinels can reduce healing received by 20%...

 

Thus if a Bounty Hunter uses their shield after we use our Crippling Throw then they gasp mitigate the effect of our Crippling Throw.

 

I would suggest you don't protlytze to me about definitions in this matter. I'm a tank. I know mitigation a damn sight better than you ever will with your lovely little Ataru spec, Combat Sentinel. But that's tangential. The point is this:

 

When I use Florish Shot, for example, the rate of the debuff never changes. That is to say, there is no skill that actually makes my trauma debuff...debuff for less. Every time I hit someone with Flourish Shot, I affect their incoming heals by a fixed percent every time. That is to say that no matter who I am applying the debuff to, it will always, always affect what they could have done.

 

You're smarter than this. Even if a healer has 20% from a talent or a CD or anything, they're still doing twenty percent less of their maximum potential input whenever I apply trauma to them. If I have my debuff on them, they're still going to do less healing than if it wasn't. Even if that means they're doing what was "normal". Because the truth is just as much this: when their 20% bonus clashes with your 20% debuff, you're canceling out their bonus. And more often than not, the cooldown on the application of said bonus is generally more charitable to the damage dealer anyways. For instance, Flourish Shot's CD is 4.5s. Reactive Shield's? 120s. Duration of the trauma debuff? 9s. Duration of Reactive Shield? Twelve. Figure it out.

 

Here this might help you:

 

Spare me. Your public vitriol does little to engender anyone to yourself or towards anything you are saying. It only makes you seem petulant. It has only ever done so. Listen, friend, I understand that you're mad that not everyone agrees with you on this matter. I understand that you don't particularly like me (which I funny because I love you). But the bottom line is that if you want to use language, you need to use it correctly. Trauma itself is never mitigated. So long as that debuff is there, it's having a 20% effect on what's happening.

 

I'm pretty sure adding 20% extra healing, when we apply a 20% penalty to healing definitely lessens in force or intensity the effect of our crippling throw. In fact it makes it as though our crippling throw didn't exist. Absolutely adding 20% more healing when we took it away makes the loss of healing less severe.

 

And yet, trauma itself is not mitigated. It remains fixed. All you are saying here is essentially "Certain advanced classes have certain specific talents and traits that affect their survivability and/or benefit their role". This is not a major revelation. You might as well tell us that certain classes uses different weapons. Of course they do. That's what makes them different. But you know what's not different? The percent to which my debuff affects a class. It can be a BH. It can be a Sorc. It can be an Agent. It can be a Mara. It can be anything. They can have whatever talents or cooldowns they want. When I apply my debuff, it applies equally to all of them. The fact that a healer might have a talent or ability which increases their base healing is not a scandal. They're healers. What do you want them to have? Talents that give them a unique /cower emote so that you can feel better when you face them?

 

A healer having talents (or rather, a class having survival cooldowns) which are beneficial to their healing is no more a scandal than a tank having talents which affect, say, their base endurance or armor value.

 

PS. You can call me Alyx. I don't care. It's okay. It's not going to hurt my feelings.

 

This entire post completely ignores the fact that while WH gear gives healers +13-15% healing, it also gives DPS +~20% damage to every single attack you do. What you're asking for is a skill that removes the bonus we got by grinding our *** off for better gear, and you can have it when healers get a skill that puts you back in Recruits as well.

 

Bingo. Gear keeps coming up again and again. But the fact of the matter is that if you are worried about the beneficial effects of the gear then you probably should spend less time complaining and more time properly gearing yourself. Expertise favors damage. Gear scaling generally favors damage. TTK in this game is tight as hell. If the major issue you are worried about is the gap created by BiS, then you should gear yourself competively before even starting to think about levying a complain.

Edited June 23, 2012 by AlyxDinas

[fungihoujo]

Bounty Hunter - Power Tech - 4th Tier Talent Ability: Protective Shield - Increases all healing received by 10% with 1 talent point, 20% with 2 talent points.

 

Our trauma only does 20% thus they can mitigate Trauma by their Protective shield. To my knowledge Sorcerers can't do that.

 

That's not mitigating the trauma bonus- that's a flat bonus to healing. Good lord- that'd be like saying that the 3 points in hemmorhage (15% more damage on bleed effects, second last level of annihilation tree) isn't 15% more damage, but 15% mitigation of the enemy's mitigation from armour- so armour is OP.

 

Here's how it actually works. While their CD of energy shield is up- they get a bonus of 20% healing. They're going to heal that 20% more whether or not you have a trauma debuff on them. It's like using a CD to increase self healing essentially.

 

Or are you saying that Cloak of Pain is there to 'mitigate' relic/adrenal CDs? Most people would say- it's a CD that's there to mitigate 'damage', not buffs/debuffs.

 

Also- energy shield has a significantly longer CD than deadly throw does- they can 'mitigate' one of your trauma debuffs.... and you'll get about 6 more before they can use it again.

 

From the logical standpoint- their energy shield isn't mitigating your trauma debuff. Your trauma debuff is mitigating their energy shield- so clearly deadly throw needs to be removed from the game.

[fungihoujo]

Well here is where the real problem comes in Adiari.

 

When you get Trauma it is a 20% debuff. No way to raise it.

 

At that time people have "100%" of all healing in PVP. Yes, yes, I know that 30% is lost because it is PVP but that really doesn't matter. The base you have in PVP is 100% base healing. This is fine and dandy in baby PVP. (Aka pre 50 PVP.)

 

Then however you get your Battlemaster and War Hero gear. This eventually gets you to around +13-15% Healing.

 

Now you are at 115% healing *all the time* in PVP. Meaning Trauma, which used to drop you down to 80% now can only drop you down to 95% Now add the shield in and you are at 115% again.

 

The main issue is that your expertise naturally is already making the Sentinel/Gunslinger/Sniper/Marauder Trauma less impacting than it was because you are always getting a +13-15% boost. In order for Trauma to drop you back down to 80% we'd have to drop you by around 35% instead of by 20% and with the loss of damage, the high focus cost, the chance of it not working at all, and the fact that it can be mitigated (or negated if you prefer) makes Trauma really crappy once people gear up.

 

NO IT DOESN'T. You are wrong. You can't just say 'mmk, I decide that you have 100% healing so that's that'. No, that's not how it works. You end up with 85% healing after trauma in WH gear. You get your deadly throw and that brings it down to either 65% or about 68%. You are not always getting a 15% boost- you are always getting a 15% penalty as a healer.

 

And it's always a flat 20%- it's a percentage. Percentages scale because they are percentages. Your so called 'mitigation' is them using a class ability or a temporary buff. Why should your deadly saber 20% trauma debuff be the only debuff/buff in the game with a set percentage value to scale up?

 

Unless you are arguing to remove the static 30% trauma debuff as well as the 'mitigation' to the healing debuff from expertise gear. To which I would be perfectly fine. Sure, make us heal at 100% efficiency in pvp, sounds great to me.

 

Oh, that doesn't sound good to you? But why not- after all, you're making out healers to have 115% healing in pvp through some magical outlook on the mechanic that ignores how the mechanic actually works. So surely reducing them from 70% of their healing+15% which equals 115% to 100% would be a 15% nerf to healers.

 

I mean really, how are you even making these ridiculous threads? Why are you so adamant about providing lies and false numbers rather than the real facts?

 

Are you that desperate to get healers nerfed again, are you still unable to kill them even after they've been pummeled by huge changes that were predominantly negative?

[fungihoujo]

At that time people have "100%" of all healing in PVP. Yes, yes, I know that 30% is lost because it is PVP but that really doesn't matter. The base you have in PVP is 100% base healing. This is fine and dandy in baby PVP. (Aka pre 50 PVP.)

 

I just wanted to quote this again unless people might have missed it- just so you can bask in how the prof asks for changes. He deliberately says 'just ignore it because it doesn't support my agenda'. And POOF- that's that to him.

 

When you lose 30% of your base healing from 100%- you apparantly get 100%.

 

Honestly- I think that's the end of this conversation- he is utterly opposed to admitting he is wrong even when every single fact is shouting 'you are wrong!' in his face.

[Daiyukie]

From another thread, he thinks that Scoundrels are self-rooted by their Dirty Kick while Operatives aren't, so I assumed he's last played the game in January some time. The fact that he knows what bonuses War Hero gear approximately give is impressive to me.

[spaace]

My biggest issue is that sages are the only healing class that doesn't get "buffs" for healing..

 

Examples;

Trooper/BH, and Smug/IA have talents that give them surge, crit, alac and defensive abilities.

 

Sages have crit, hit and a bubble (that is about 4k worth of life? every 15 sec)

---

Tr/BH, Sm/IA have a different type of regen (smaller "bar" to play with) but also have better regen (in the long run), and both have abilities that will regen their resource by a huge chunk, if needed.

 

Sages do not (only our ability, that takes HP, and a global

---

Tr/BH and Sm/IA have instant healing spells that do lots of healing (for kiting/pressure)

 

Sages have shield(once every 15 sec), and rejuv (6s cd, lucky to get 600-1000 initial hit)

[Daiyukie]

My biggest issue is that sages are the only healing class that doesn't get "buffs" for healing..

 

Examples;

Trooper/BH, and Smug/IA have talents that give them surge, crit, alac and defensive abilities.

 

Sages have crit, hit and a bubble (that is about 4k worth of life? every 15 sec)

---

Tr/BH, Sm/IA have a different type of regen (smaller "bar" to play with) but also have better regen (in the long run), and both have abilities that will regen their resource by a huge chunk, if needed.

 

Sages do not (only our ability, that takes HP, and a global

---

Tr/BH and Sm/IA have instant healing spells that do lots of healing (for kiting/pressure)

 

Sages have shield(once every 15 sec), and rejuv (6s cd, lucky to get 600-1000 initial hit)

 

My Emergency Medpack regularly heals for ~800. If I get a nice fat crit on someone with a +healing bonus and such, I have gotten a 2.5k crit medal off it, but not otherwise. 2k crits aren't rare either, but relying on crits is not exactly reliable ; ] Those that say to rely on SRM and EMP for all your healing clearly have NO idea what it's like to try and save someone being focused, or they leave that to the Sages and Troopers while they run around and feel useful. The only way a Scoundrel is putting out healing is chaining UWM and EMP; SRM and EMP ain't saving anyone, though it IS a nice life-extender to spam EMP with some lucky crit strings.

 

I have rarely hit a 5k heal though, whereas the best Trooper Healer on my server has hit me with a ~6200 heal. I am the first-aid, Sage/Troop are the EMTs. That's just how it works, and we all need team support. Trooper knockback is AWESOME for peels, I always try to hang around my guild's DPS Commando.

[ProfessorWalsh]

I just wanted to quote this again unless people might have missed it- just so you can bask in how the prof asks for changes. He deliberately says 'just ignore it because it doesn't support my agenda'. And POOF- that's that to him.

 

When you lose 30% of your base healing from 100%- you apparantly get 100%.

 

Honestly- I think that's the end of this conversation- he is utterly opposed to admitting he is wrong even when every single fact is shouting 'you are wrong!' in his face.

 

No. You are simply ignorant and are trying to twist the situation.

 

Everyone loses 30% of their healing just for entering PVP. We all know this. Yes, this means that everyone is at 70% of their healing in PVP compared to PVE. However when we are just considering PVP that is their base 100%

 

That is the constant of PVP and thus is 100% of PVP healing. You can't keep harping on your PVE numbers because your PVE numbers have never mattered in PVP. That -30% off of your PVE healing is 100% of your PVP healing.

[ProfessorWalsh]

From another thread, he thinks that Scoundrels are self-rooted by their Dirty Kick while Operatives aren't, so I assumed he's last played the game in January some time. The fact that he knows what bonuses War Hero gear approximately give is impressive to me.

 

Oh yes pardon me for missing an animation bug fix from 1.2. Which wasn't deployed that long ago.

[Daiyukie]

Oh yes pardon me for missing an animation bug fix from 1.2. Which wasn't deployed that long ago.

 

Well, when it's the basis for another of your silly arguments, you might wanna know what you're talking about

[ProfessorWalsh]

Well, when it's the basis for another of your silly arguments, you might wanna know what you're talking about

 

It wasn't the basis for any argument it was one of two examples. I notice that you ignored the other one (which is Project animation vs shock) and you seem to think 1.2 was a January release. (Note: It was April 12th) There is also the Trooper vs Bounty Hunter issue and then there is the Force Scream vs Blade Storm issue there is also about 4 others I can think of.

Edited June 23, 2012 by ProfessorWalsh

[Daiyukie]

It wasn't the basis for any argument it was one of two examples. I notice that you ignored the other one (which is Project animation vs shock) and you seem to think 1.2 was a January release. (Note: It was April 12th) There is also the Trooper vs Bounty Hunter issue and then there is the Force Scream vs Blade Storm issue there is also about 4 others I can think of.

 

Insinuating you last played the game in January and talking about 1.2 does not mean I think 1.2 was released in January, lol. I think you kind of missed the point where I was talking about a change in 1.2 you weren't aware of and then suggested you last played before the patch, explaining your lack of knowledge, but I now know where your lack of knowledge comes from =]

[Daiyukie]

It wasn't the basis for any argument it was one of two examples. I notice that you ignored the other one (which is Project animation vs shock) and you seem to think 1.2 was a January release. (Note: It was April 12th) There is also the Trooper vs Bounty Hunter issue and then there is the Force Scream vs Blade Storm issue there is also about 4 others I can think of.

Imp/Repub differences:

Hey everybody!

 

Our recent Community Q&A blog has gone live, and there is some additional information regarding Project that we thought you all might find relevant to this discussion:

 

Ximix: Are there any plans to revisit ability animation issues between mirror classes? For example, several "instant" Sage abilities actually have 1-2 second activations while Sorcerer abilities activate and deal damage instantly. Just like the Commando vs Bounty Hunter animations, in PvP these discrepancies can be huge.

 

Austin Peckenpaugh (Senior Designer): Whenever you use an "instant" ability, the server receives and process that action without any animation dependency (read: instantly), but the impact VFX and flytext are synced to the attack animation on your client. This is done to make the game look good and give attacks a sense of weight and impact without affecting timing or balance.

 

There are some notable exceptions to this that are real delays and real discrepancies that we're aware of and are addressing. In the case of Shock and Project, there is a real delay (on the server) before Project deals its damage, and that's something we're fixing in 1.3. The other real delays that we're aware of are in Smash and Force Sweep, but we don't yet have a fix for those.

 

If you believe additional abilities have delays or are not mirrored, you'd have to point them out specifically. With the exception of the abilities I've already mentioned, so far our investigations have shown that the discrepancies being reported are the intentional ones that make the game look good and feel right and, to reiterate, do not impact timing or balance.

Please feel free to read through the rest of the answers here:

 

Community Q&A: May 25th, 2012 – Special Edition: Game Update 1.3

 

Thanks and may the Force be with you!

Source: Sireene in this thread

[ProfessorWalsh]

Imp/Repub differences:

 

Source: Sireene in this thread

 

How about you go look at the Patch notes for 1.3 where they are fixing the Sorcerer/Sage animation imbalance right now.

[Daiyukie]

How about you go look at the Patch notes for 1.3 where they are fixing the Sorcerer/Sage animation imbalance right now.

 

You didn't participate in the "Project is getting FIXED!" thread at all, did you? The new Project animation looks funky, but it's faster, yes (I didn't care one way or the other, there were burst benefits and killing drawbacks). At least I assume that's what you were referencing..

 

What I was ATTEMPTING to show you is the part where I said there are not "a number of other issues" and certainly not "4 others that you can't remember". You can't remember because they don't exist and most, as stated there, are visual delays that are there by design.

 

Are you being willfully dense or seriously responding to me? That January thing was pretty bad you know.. I mean, in the above there's a LINK to the 1.3 Q&A it's from so you'd think this references upcoming 1.3 changes, right? But I guess you didn't read at all and just spouted off again.

Edited June 23, 2012 by Daiyukie

[ProfessorWalsh]

You didn't participate in the "Project is getting FIXED!" thread at all, did you? The new Project animation looks funky, but it's faster, yes (I didn't care one way or the other, there were burst benefits and killing drawbacks). At least I assume that's what you were referencing..

 

What I was ATTEMPTING to show you is the part where I said there are not "a number of other issues" and certainly not "4 others that you can't remember". You can't remember because they don't exist and most, as stated there, are visual delays that are there by design.

 

Are you being willfully dense or seriously responding to me? That January thing was pretty bad you know.. I mean, in the above there's a LINK to the 1.3 Q&A it's from so you'd think this references upcoming 1.3 changes, right? But I guess you didn't read at all and just spouted off again.

 

I didn't say 4 others that I "can't" remember. I said at least four others that I *can* remember.

 

Example:

Bounty Hunter has more resources than the Trooper.

Force Scream is instant and causes no stutter, Blade Storm is not instant and does suffer from stutter.

[Daiyukie]

I didn't say 4 others that I "can't" remember. I said at least four others that I *can* remember.

 

Example:

Bounty Hunter has more resources than the Trooper.

Force Scream is instant and causes no stutter, Blade Storm is not instant and does suffer from stutter.

 

I don't see any reference to the 4 you can't remember off the top of your head, so you probably edited the post to simply read "there are other issues", but regardless, you listed 3 others. Where's 4?

 

I can agree with number 1, though it's a tiny difference. No idea about Warrior talents. I can add a fourth if you really want though, and that's Spinning Strike's (Shadow execute) delay that sometimes gets it canceled for some reason. It's not a backstab move, so I don't know why it would fail other than not having the Force to use it, but my guess is they run out of range while you wave your saber over your head like a *******.

 

Definitely not cool.