Wait. What?

[Seravis]

I haven't been playing SWTOR for awhile, but I decided to return today and I just noticed the Assassin nerfs. At first I was actually happy that to hear that they were finally nerfing Tankassins. Not really because I think they NEED a nerf, but because I just hate fighting against a class/spec that lets a bad player hold his own against a good player. That being said I was only happy until I read the patch notes and realized they were nerfing them in the worst possible way. They are nerfing the "tankiness" of the tank class that already has the lowest "tankiness".

 

So... why are they nerfing a tanks "tankiness"?

 

Everyone's complaint with Assassin tanks has always been that they do too much damage for being a tank, and to a lesser extent that they are very "noob friendly". I have never heard anyone complain about how they were too "tanky". In fact they are arguably the worst tank when it comes to actually tanking.

 

Why can't they just nerf Tankassins Damage output, and buff their threat by the the same amount? It solve the PVP "problem", and wouldn't completely ruin them in PVE.

 

I don't know... Can someone explain to me the reasoning behind this nerf?

[schnopsnosn]

From my experience on the PTS with a friend of mine who plays a Tank-Sin and who is actually a competent player with proper stat-distribution I can say this:

The nerfs are nowhere near as bad as baddies try to make them to be.

 

They are the easiest to heal on the Live-servers right now with a LOT of mitigation through their Shield, but would get some damage spikes from time to time.

The 5% dmg-reduction nerf won't mean that they're worthless all of a sudden, most of the selfheal from HD/DC was overheal anyways...

Edited June 14, 2012 by schnopsnosn

[Seravis]

From my experience on the PTS with a friend of mine who plays a Tank-Sin and who is actually a competent player with proper stat-distribution I can say this:

The nerfs are nowhere near as bad as baddies try to make them to be.

 

They are the easiest to heal on the Live-servers right now with a LOT of mitigation through their Shield, but would get some damage spikes from time to time.

The 5% dmg-reduction nerf won't mean that they're worthless all of a sudden, most of the selfheal from HD/DC was overheal anyways...

 

My issue isn't really about how BAD the nerfs are to be honest, but how they nerfing the wrong part of the "problem". I'm just wondering why they nerfed their tankiness instead of their damage in their TANK tree.

 

I see no problems with a tank being the easiest to heal, and being hard to kill. It is only an issue when they can also put out almost as much burst damage as a squishy DPS. Their damage was always MY issue with them, and I thought that was what everyone else had an issue with. Am I wrong or is the issue really that Assassins are just TOO tanky in their tank tree?

Edited June 14, 2012 by Seravis

[schnopsnosn]

Because they need this damage in PvE to hold aggro.

Also they're not that much above Juggs/PTs anyways...

[Seravis]

Because they need this damage in PvE to hold aggro.

Also they're not that much above Juggs/PTs anyways...

 

They can just increase the +threat modifier on Dark Charge to compensate for any damage loss. Having a tank in PVE doing 10-20% less damage isn't really a big issue, but having a tank taking 10-20% more damage is a huge issue.

 

Don't get me wrong these changes will nerf DPS geared Tankassins which is what everyone complains about, but the way they are going about it will nerf TANK geared Tankassins in PVE for no reason.

[DarthVenizen]

They can just increase the +threat modifier on Dark Charge to compensate for any damage loss. Having a tank in PVE doing 10-20% less damage isn't really a big issue, but having a tank taking 10-20% more damage is a huge issue.

 

Don't get me wrong these changes will nerf DPS geared Tankassins which is what everyone complains about, but the way they are going about it will nerf TANK geared Tankassins in PVE for no reason.

 

except it's not for no reason

 

tankasin's survivability was really REALLY high, now it's being equalized down to ptech's and jug's

[Okamakiri]

except it's not for no reason

 

tankasin's survivability was really REALLY high, now it's being equalized down to ptech's and jug's

 

If you're speaking of 1-on-1PVP, that statement might be true. If you're speaking of many-on-1 PVP, Juggs and PTs have higher passive mitigation and more/better tanking cooldowns. If you're speaking of PVE, in highend ops content, the only place tanking specs should be balanced around IMO, they're already behind other tanks. After these changes the gap will only be greater. A damage nerf to HD and Energize I would have understood to balance PVP, but survival nerf, completely uncalled for.

[DarthVenizen]

If you're speaking of 1-on-1PVP, that statement might be true. If you're speaking of many-on-1 PVP, Juggs and PTs have higher passive mitigation and more/better tanking cooldowns. If you're speaking of PVE, in highend ops content, the only place tanking specs should be balanced around IMO, they're already behind other tanks. After these changes the gap will only be greater. A damage nerf to HD and Energize I would have understood to balance PVP, but survival nerf, completely uncalled for.

 

LOL assassin tanks behind other tanks in pve

 

sorry not true

 

their self healing combined with their shielding was ridiculous

 

SOME encounters were difficult but assassin tanks were definitely the best tanks to have in a group

[theeliteninja]

Its not that the tank in tank gear was bad for PVP, but it was the Tank spec with DPS stats. A tank in tank gear should survive longer fights, it makes sense that they nerfed the armor down 35% because of light armor, but they completely downgraded EVERY single heal.

[Okamakiri]

LOL assassin tanks behind other tanks in pve

 

sorry not true

 

their self healing combined with their shielding was ridiculous

 

SOME encounters were difficult but assassin tanks were definitely the best tanks to have in a group

 

I'm getting tired of arguing with idiots.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=473875

[DarthVenizen]

I'm getting tired of arguing with idiots.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=473875

 

thx for showing numbers pre and post nerf, i was talking about a comparison between tanks, you were saying pre nerf that assassin tanks are behind other tanks

 

yet guilds run dual assassin tanks (main and off) all the time, there is actually no need for other tanks ESPECIALLY versus force or tech damage enemies force shroud, every 45 seconds 100% immunity to that damage OH LOOK that makes assassin tanks the most efficient versues caster type bosses while SLIGHTLY behind physical damage bosses in terms of straight mitigation but they make up for that with ridiculous levels of self healing.

 

I am not arguing that the nerfs will hurt, but nerfs WERE necessary just not to the degree that they were done. The main thing that caused the nerf IMHO was the change to wither adding to stacks of harnessed darkness, this made us able to heal for 12% of our health much more often than was originally intended, and now the knee jerk nerf comes into place from a combination of their efficiency in pve and their dominance in pvp.

Edited June 15, 2012 by DarthVenizen

[timidobserver]

LOL assassin tanks behind other tanks in pve

 

sorry not true

 

their self healing combined with their shielding was ridiculous

 

SOME encounters were difficult but assassin tanks were definitely the best tanks to have in a group

 

I know most people these days don't believe in math. They only believe in what they think, feel, and want. However, the math behind the assassin tank vs other tanks says that your post is false.

Edited June 15, 2012 by timidobserver

[TheRedNalroni]

Through Practice:

Rakata Geared Powertech Can SOLO (with a healing companion) Black Hole 5 man. It takes a hell of a low longer and some kiting but can be done, and That is through KILLING every pack in the way in which an Assasssin MUST use stealth to avoid or die.

 

Operative Healers can Also solo this content with a Tanking companion usisng stealth to bypass 100% of the Packs like the Assassin.

 

In Truth, Belsavis Heroic Lights out was initially a Heroic 4 and you didnt need to kill a thing. Now its been re-classified a heroic 2 and you Must kill a 'Champion' Boss.

This is not much easier than End of Torvix which can be 2 manned quite easily.

 

Alot of people using this "you can solo H4's" as a responce to the nerf are either follows:

 

1/ Trolls

2/ Jealous they are not one of the classes that can easily solo this content.

3/ Have No Concept on How an Assassin plays and how these changes actually affect them.

4/ Are just skill less players.

[Okamakiri]

thx for showing numbers pre and post nerf, i was talking about a comparison between tanks, you were saying pre nerf that assassin tanks are behind other tanks

 

yet guilds run dual assassin tanks (main and off) all the time, there is actually no need for other tanks ESPECIALLY versus force or tech damage enemies force shroud, every 45 seconds 100% immunity to that damage OH LOOK that makes assassin tanks the most efficient versues caster type bosses while SLIGHTLY behind physical damage bosses in terms of straight mitigation but they make up for that with ridiculous levels of self healing.

 

I am not arguing that the nerfs will hurt, but nerfs WERE necessary just not to the degree that they were done. The main thing that caused the nerf IMHO was the change to wither adding to stacks of harnessed darkness, this made us able to heal for 12% of our health much more often than was originally intended, and now the knee jerk nerf comes into place from a combination of their efficiency in pve and their dominance in pvp.

 

Again... I'm tired of arguing about this anymore. If you look at the same link again, you will see that even pre-nerf we're taking more damage than the other two tanks. The only thing offsetting it right now is our self healing, which doesn't scale and eventually gets outpaced by harder hitting content. The nerf in survivability was completely unjustified.

 

Even nerf in damage while wearing tanking gear would be unjustified, since PTs do more damage than us in tanking gear. The problem is the design of our tanking talents that compliment DPS gear far too well, so the only correct fix would be a redesign of HD and Energize talents. I already posted my suggestions on how to address this in another thread:

• Harnessed Darkness damage bonus removed.
  
• Energize proc changed to -100% energy cost on next Shock (tank stance requirement remains).
  

These two changes allow Darkness tanks to actually use Thrash in their rotation regularly thus maintaining still high TPS (to offset the DPS lost in HD and Energize), while greatly reducing burst in PVP.

 

In addition to those DPS changes, it would also be acceptable to reduce self healing while raising passive mitigation to compensate. This would again nerf PVP survivability while keeping tankassins viable in PVE (and scaling better, since healing does not scale properly... too good in easy contents, too weak in hard content).

 

But instead of doing it the correct way, BW went for the lazy approach of tweaking a couple of existing gauges. The end result is that PVP sins will hardly notice any difference with ther damage remaining unchanged, while PVE sins fall even further behind other tanks in top endgame content.