Shield tech Viable yet?

[AnAcuteAngle]

Just curious.

[dardack]

For what?

 

PVE have been and still are.

 

 

PVP - depends who you ask. You ask me, no not at all. Only tank spec viable in pvp is tankasins, juggs/pt's suck. And changes in 1.3 really don't change the jugg/pt's part, it may change the OP'ness of tankasins tho.

[Verko]

Im a shieldtech in full tank gear and i have no problems in pvp. I find im more useful protecting healers and annoying everyone than i was as pyro killing people. I know a lot of people say the gear is useless but i don't find that to be true, i have a good hp base and i can handle 3-4 people beating on me for quite sometime. I will admit it takes a little more effort than some other classes but if you manage your taunts, guard, etc you can be very useful to the team. Ive done over 250k dmg quite a few times and over 100k prot so i find its all about how you play the class and if you have a smart healer to work with you (not pocket heal but at least pay attention to you guarding him).

[Noollig]

I run 31pt ST some weeks when I'm also PvE tanking hardmodes in between warzones. I don't know why there is the idea that ST in PvP is worthless. I wear DPS gear mostly, with a couple pieces of tank gear. I can still put decent burst with a Rocket Punch> Heat Blast> Rail Shot combo, and get the rocket punch resets more often that I would have expected. Survivability is increased a good bit with just a couple tank pieces, especially against the fotm mara/sent crowd. Rocket punch really is the key to putting out any kind of damage though, and with the nerf that is planned... I won't be playing ST at all, and the tank gear is getting shelved.

[Ehral]

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=482557

 

I wrote this about Vanguard but I'm reasonably sure it applies to you too

[Noollig]

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=482557

 

I wrote this about Vanguard but I'm reasonably sure it applies to you too

 

So you are saying the nerf to the damage and crit chance of Rocket Punch is OK, because I should start spamming AoE "pressure" attacks and simply stop worrying about ever trying to put out some decent single target burst? Flame Sweep damage was nerfed too, btw.

 

Can you honestly say that you think a shield specced vanguard or powertech would be overpowered if they made all the changes they propose EXCEPT they left rocket punch / stock strike completely untouched?

[Noollig]

so iron fist isnt viable anymore?

 

im thinkin about rollin a powertech and i know back when i actually looked at powertechs iron fist was pretty good in pvp.its not full shield tech though its hybrid i thought

 

Since the changes in 1.2 took heat blast off the global cooldown, Your burst is higher in 31 ST (if you are wearing DPS gear mostly), plus it adds a little better heat management and increased defensive stats without need for gear. You also end up better off for tanking in PvE if you want to hit some hardmodes between warzones.

 

Ironfist still gives you the shorter cooldown on interrupts, but with fewer abilities being interruptable, it's less useful. Retractable blade isn't as helpful now that dots don't prevent people from capping, and even though the overall damage is better than heat blast, it's not off-GCD and it doesn't vent heat. The shorter CD on grapple is nice in huttball, but having the 30% bonus on your runspeed after charging can help you get to the ball/carrier/goal faster and is a good exchange in my opinion, and it helps more in other maps where you can't grapple into traps.

[CrunkShizzle]

hmm so whats better if all i wanted to do was pvp

 

iron fist,or just going full ap

Edited June 15, 2012 by CrunkShizzle

[Noollig]

hmm so whats better if all i wanted to do was pvp

 

iron fist,or just going full ap

 

Full AP, especially with the new changes coming in 1.3.

 

Better to get used to AP than to try any form of ST, since the big hitter in the spec is getting nerfed pretty badly. Without a hard hitting rocket punch, it's just going to be called the "fist" build.

[Ehral]

So you are saying the nerf to the damage and crit chance of Rocket Punch is OK, because I should start spamming AoE "pressure" attacks and simply stop worrying about ever trying to put out some decent single target burst? Flame Sweep damage was nerfed too, btw.

 

Can you honestly say that you think a shield specced vanguard or powertech would be overpowered if they made all the changes they propose EXCEPT they left rocket punch / stock strike completely untouched?

 

First, No, explosive surge/flame sweep wasn't nerfed as much as you think. It lost the 30% surge and 14% crit but gained 12% overall damage. You can still do decent single target burst! sticky grenade timed to detonate at the same time as a stockstrike/HiB/Energy Blast combo already does considerable burst. a 1000pt reduction on the stockstrike isn't gonna change this much.

 

If you want to run around doing EVEN MORE single target burst than you currently can, then you can just spec for it easily (like everyone else does, sigh). Or you can use ALL of the great abilities you currently have to debuff damage (this includes flame sweep/Ex. Surge btw), immobilize, AoE slow, pull, charge, guard, and be a royal pain in the *** to any opposing team. And as I said in my other post, you can do this while breaking 350k dmg regularly.

 

And yes, lol, I think if they left stockstrike untouched and added an AoE effect to my HiB that damages and slows AND gave me a spammable explosive surge, I think I'd be way overpowered. I think I am overpowered now.

Edited June 15, 2012 by Ehral

[BryH]

So, I'm one of my guilds main tanks and I also love to PvP. I have several pieces of comb tch WH and with changes to 1.3 am I wasting my time getting a complete set? And if so I'm guessing that I should be getting a super commando set? And for those of you that believe ST is viable in PvP do you consider yourself exceptional at PvP do you think that only exceptional ppl can pull of ST in PvP and the good/decent plays would be less of a hindrance to their team as a Dps? It just seams that everyone WZ I'm in someone is telling me I'm wasting my time or how I'm hurting my team as a ST or that if this was a ranked match they would never bring a TANK along.

[Sookster]

I don't pvp on my shieldtech anymore, used to for a while (mostly as Parakeet), but occasionally I go in as full shieldtech and still do OK, I stick to protecting healers or damage dealers and grappling/charging enemies out of their place.

 

Otherwise, no tank specs aren't that good in pvp, unless you plan on running around with guard up and wear dps gear.

Edited June 16, 2012 by Sookster

[Verko]

I was pvping for most of the day today on my shieldtech in full tank gear. I did just fine. You can do easily over 250k dmg in supercommando gear with usually 100k prot. BW is not as stupid as people make them out to be the class is fine just practice and figure out how to optimize. I always guard healers, and taunt whenever there up.

 

PT Shieldtech in supercommando also own in huttball.

[Ehral]

Otherwise, no tank specs aren't that good in pvp, unless you plan on running around with guard up and wear dps gear.

 

Ummm.... YES. Exactly.

 

This is exactly what you should be doing. Seriously. Run around with guard up and wear DPS gear.

 

Those of you who aren't doing this -- this is why you think shield tech is not viable. I've said it before elsewhere -- Basically ALL of your tankiness as a Vanguard/Powertech comes from places other than your gear.

[Agooz]

Or you can use ALL of the great abilities you currently have to debuff damage (this includes flame sweep/Ex. Surge btw), immobilize, AoE slow, pull, charge, guard, and be a royal pain in the *** to any opposing team. And as I said in my other post, you can do this while breaking 350k dmg regularly.

 

First of all for a tank to say they regularly hit 350k, then a dps should regularly hit 600k+. Both dont happen "regularly", it is more like "rarely". Because it is not every game that you are running with a pocket healer, or with a premade, or with competent and geared players. More importantly, it is not every game that runs its complete course. Show us 10 consecutive scorecards, 5 solo queue and 5group queue, and lets see that 350k game after game. People exaggerating on these forums only accomplish to create a false perspective of a class or AC.

 

Second, I never ONCE in my 80+ valor ranks did I think of ANY tank, specifically PT/Jugg, as being ANYWHERE remotely close to being a "pain in the ***", and we have some notorious ones on my server running in full augmented WH dps gear.

I am not telling people not to play Tanks. I am not saying that it is not FUN to play as a tank. I am not even saying that they are worthless. But when someone says "I play to be a pain int he ***", that's only from your perspective. You have absolutely no evidence that you are being such. In fact, all the evidence shows the complete opposite, otherwise there WOULD be more tanks playing in PvP. I cant tell you how often I go against a tank/healer combo and kill them both while ignoring the tank pretty much completely. If I experience Tanks as being such as you described, I would love nothing more than to play one (and I have played quite a bit as a PT tank). Furthermore, there isnt a single WZ that requires a tactic of being a "pain in the ***" to win.

[Ehral]

 

Second, I never ONCE in my 80+ valor ranks did I think of ANY tank, specifically PT/Jugg, as being ANYWHERE remotely close to being a "pain in the ***", and we have some notorious ones on my server running in full augmented WH dps gear.

I am not telling people not to play Tanks. I am not saying that it is not FUN to play as a tank. I am not even saying that they are worthless. But when someone says "I play to be a pain int he ***", that's only from your perspective. You have absolutely no evidence that you are being such. In fact, all the evidence shows the complete opposite, otherwise there WOULD be more tanks playing in PvP. I cant tell you how often I go against a tank/healer combo and kill them both while ignoring the tank pretty much completely. If I experience Tanks as being such as you described, I would love nothing more than to play one (and I have played quite a bit as a PT tank). Furthermore, there isnt a single WZ that requires a tactic of being a "pain in the ***" to win.

 

When I talk about being a pain to the enemy team I am talking about things that definitely have an effect on the game. The best example of this is the guard, which very much does limit the ability of people to focus a healer or other players. You may think you are ignoring the tank, but the mechanic itself is making sure that you aren't. half of your damage is being directed elsewhere and making it so that no matter how much you'd like to focus fire, you actually can't.

 

Same thing with taunt. if I taunt you and you don't even realize it or just don't think I am a pain at all and once again ignore me, that doesn't mean you aren't now doing 30% less damage. And 4% less on top of that from my damage.

 

How is it that the same people who argue so strongly for burst and single target damage so easily defy their own logic by suggesting that guard is meaningless when it effectively turns burst and single target damage into pretty bad AoE.

 

For example, in the past few days talking about this I have been told over and over that explosive surge/flame sweep sucks because 1100 dmg to 2 targets sucks compared to 1500 to one. But then when a guard turns that same 1500 pt ability into 750 (less actually) to two targets via guard, well that's no problem at all somehow.

Edited June 17, 2012 by Ehral

[HeavensTerror]

Im a shieldtech in full tank gear and i have no problems in pvp. I find im more useful protecting healers and annoying everyone than i was as pyro killing people. I know a lot of people say the gear is useless but i don't find that to be true, i have a good hp base and i can handle 3-4 people beating on me for quite sometime. I will admit it takes a little more effort than some other classes but if you manage your taunts, guard, etc you can be very useful to the team. Ive done over 250k dmg quite a few times and over 100k prot so i find its all about how you play the class and if you have a smart healer to work with you (not pocket heal but at least pay attention to you guarding him).

 

+1

 

I'm SS with my Vanguard, and it's not as bad as people say. I only have about two pieces of WH and I do fine. The thing is most people don't tank right in pvp, they still think it's about dmg. You're basically a punching bag for the other team. Your whole goal is too be so annoying with taunts, guard, CC, and interrupts. That they only target you.

[dardack]

+1

 

I'm SS with my Vanguard, and it's not as bad as people say. I only have about two pieces of WH and I do fine. The thing is most people don't tank right in pvp, they still think it's about dmg. You're basically a punching bag for the other team. Your whole goal is too be so annoying with taunts, guard, CC, and interrupts. That they only target you.

 

I just ignore PT/Jugg tanks (tankasins are OP and can't be ignored). Your damage is a joke, your guarding I can burst though, kill your healer and normally kill you in the process from the Guarding damage.

 

I agree with agooz. PT/Jugg tanks are almost useless in PvP right now. Give me a tankasin for ball carrying/guarding/dpsing over both tanks. I love when I see the other team has 2-3 jugg/pt tanks even if they have 2-3 healers.

[dardack]

When I talk about being a pain to the enemy team I am talking about things that definitely have an effect on the game. The best example of this is the guard, which very much does limit the ability of people to focus a healer or other players. You may think you are ignoring the tank, but the mechanic itself is making sure that you aren't. half of your damage is being directed elsewhere and making it so that no matter how much you'd like to focus fire, you actually can't.

 

Same thing with taunt. if I taunt you and you don't even realize it or just don't think I am a pain at all and once again ignore me, that doesn't mean you aren't now doing 30% less damage. And 4% less on top of that from my damage.

:

 

Um yes you can focus fire. You kill guarded healer and kill both the healer and the tank. It's a 2 for 1. You talk like gaurd is making 50% of the damage go away, it's just going to you. Also, since I"m ignoring you, I'm ignoring your tank cylinder that reduces my damage. It totally negates that cylinder.

 

Unless it's a PITA Op healer who can "maybe" live long enough for you to kill me before I kill it, I normally kill tank/healer combo's.

 

Sure 6 seconds 30% less. Short enough to power through and still kill the healer. And normally a Pyro's preasure on a healer, even tho he's healing himself, the tank usually dies from the guard, and the healer shortly after.

 

I'm not saying it's not Fun, or don't do what you want to do. Just dont' make claims about a spec that it's some awesome spec or something. The only viable tank in pvp right now is Tankasins. I was hoping Pt/Jugg was getting buff for PvP but doesn't seem like it. Maybe we'll see I'm sure.

Edited June 18, 2012 by dardack

[Mikroswitch]

I think it's down to who is behind the ST character, sure if you think you are some insanity driven killing machine you are in for rude awakening but if you want to be a protector of the innocent then things can be very different.

 

I know from very painful experiences as a ST the likelihood of being able to take out a player 1v1 who know what they are doing will be a one sided affair and not overly pleasant one for me, but if I have done my job I have survived long enough for my team to get to my location and keep the cap even if it's against 1v2 or more.

 

I routinely guard my healers for 150k+ and with little or no deaths to me or the healer, ok my damage isn't the best but all I want to do is defend my spot and protect my healer and if by doing debuffs, cc, grappling and doing next to no real damage then I am happy and so is the healer.

 

I also regularly get the ball thrown to me in a HB match and walk the ball in not just once or twice but 4, 5 or 6 times and that's with majority of the other team pounding on me too ^^, admittedly I prefer to have another tank have ball and guard them but you do what you have to do!

 

I have also been in WZ where the healers get melted because no one is protecting the butts and even the dreaded "no tanks or healers but full of DPS" teams and no matter how hard the DPS can nuke things they just can't take down the other side due to ever dwindling numbers of DPS!

 

From all my experiences in WZ's I feel that the hierarchy of roles are that the DPS want to be the GOD's of WZ's and brag about being able to melt this or that class and anything that can't produce BIG numbers are not worth the pixels they are drawn with but I enjoy playing ST and enjoy being a debuffing pain in the backside and even more so when the Aoe debuffing comes in 1.3

[Ehral]

Um yes you can focus fire. You kill guarded healer and kill both the healer and the tank. It's a 2 for 1. You talk like gaurd is making 50% of the damage go away, it's just going to you. Also, since I"m ignoring you, I'm ignoring your tank cylinder that reduces my damage. It totally negates that cylinder.

 

Unless it's a PITA Op healer who can "maybe" live long enough for you to kill me before I kill it, I normally kill tank/healer combo's.

 

Sure 6 seconds 30% less. Short enough to power through and still kill the healer. And normally a Pyro's preasure on a healer, even tho he's healing himself, the tank usually dies from the guard, and the healer shortly after.

 

I'm not saying it's not Fun, or don't do what you want to do. Just dont' make claims about a spec that it's some awesome spec or something. The only viable tank in pvp right now is Tankasins. I was hoping Pt/Jugg was getting buff for PvP but doesn't seem like it. Maybe we'll see I'm sure.

 

I don't understand your reasoning. Saying that you focus fire 2 players and that you get a 2 for 1? No, you don't get a 2 for 1. You get a 2 for 2. You still have to kill both, it's just that now they have to go down together instead of one by one.

 

A bunch of times in the past few days I've been told how great 'burst' is, and that doing 1500 to one player is better than 1100 to 2 different players. How can people defy their own logic so easily. When I guard, I effectively turn a burst single target ability into a shoddy AoE. That same 1500 attack when I guard becomes a 750 pt 2 person AoE. So my AoE is crap apparently but your is ok?

 

And yes, I do get to mitigate my share. I'm not sure what all counts but I sure as heck know that I do not take the same damage as the healer. This is easily testable just by going and hitting the next guarded healer you see in a wz and noticing that the tank takes less. AND don't forget that the taunt applies the 30% damage debuff, and ion pulse/explosive surge/flame burst/sweep another 4%

 

You are seriously undervaluing guard and it's almost like you don't understand how it works or what focus fire means. Focus fire means putting all damage onto one target, and guard by it's very nature prevents this.

 

Allow me to illustrate with a contrived example:

 

Suppose we have 2 DPS players that do some high amount of DPS, say x damage. And suppose they run into a tank and a dps'er. The tank is a weak dps'er and only does 1/2 x damage, but the other dps'er does x damage.

 

So, group 1 does 2x total dps, whereas group 2 does 1.5x total dps. Who wins?

 

Group 2 does! Why? because they can apply this 1.5x dps to each target in turn. they can burn the first down at a rate of 1.5x damage while group 1 is forced to do only 1x damage to each player. and once they have done so they can start on the second, who will now be doing only .5x damage to each player, while they are still doing 1.5x.

 

I should point out that this is actually a perfectly equal fight. It's based on the length of the fight and each player's actual dps relative to the tank. The exact point of equality is when tank dps is exactly half of everyone else. But I can promise you that in practice this 'tipping' point is far in favor of the tank/guard because they should do more than this. More importantly though...

 

In this contrived example all that's coming into play is the dps ratios and the guard. This is not assuming any HP advantage on the part of the tank, or any mitigation advantages through armor or damage reduction. That's right -- it means that if I was wearing light armor like the DPS'er and had the same HP we'd still be just as effective. (this all assumes that you choose to 'ignore' the tank, but then that's exactly what people like you keep telling me they do).

 

Now, you may call this theorycrafting, and I'd agree. But mostly just because in practice things are FAR FAR more telling in favor of the guard.

 

In practice, a lot of 2 person guarding tank combos can hold their own against 3-4 players. And if you are like me, you do a lot more than HALF the dps that the other player does.

 

Perhaps the easiest way I can make this point is just to ask you this: If 2 groups get into a fight and group A each picks a different target and starts to apply damage while group B puts all their damage onto one player, who is gonna win? Having a guard up means that even people who want to be in group B are FORCED by the tank to play like group A.

 

If you think you have killed a 2 player guarding tank combo and that you burned them down before they could kill you you were either:

 

Playing the worst 2 player combo in history

Way better/more geared than them

Totally ignored by them as they were killing other players/doing other important things.

Edited June 18, 2012 by Ehral

[Noollig]

If there is a healer, you focus the healer, so they have to heal, and won't be doing damage. Not the case with a tank/dps duo.

 

If it's a PT tank / other dps combo you just focus fire on the tank to negate his taunts and make guard useless. PT tanks primarily get all their defense from IGC, not defensive cooldowns exclusive to shield techs. The tank tree boosts shield and absorb, but that can be bypassed with attacks that can't be shielded.

 

PT tanks get the same defensive CDs as PT dps. All PT specs can taunt. What are you gaining as a ST now? A little higher shield/absorb and a charge. Really, a 31 AP can use IGC and have nearly the same defenses but have more offensive capability and the option to switch to DPS if the team he ends up on has plenty of tanks.

[Mikroswitch]

If there is a healer, you focus the healer, so they have to heal, and won't be doing damage. Not the case with a tank/dps duo.

 

If it's a PT tank / other dps combo you just focus fire on the tank to negate his taunts and make guard useless. PT tanks primarily get all their defense from IGC, not defensive cooldowns exclusive to shield techs. The tank tree boosts shield and absorb, but that can be bypassed with attacks that can't be shielded.

 

PT tanks get the same defensive CDs as PT dps. All PT specs can taunt. What are you gaining as a ST now? A little higher shield/absorb and a charge. Really, a 31 AP can use IGC and have nearly the same defenses but have more offensive capability and the option to switch to DPS if the team he ends up on has plenty of tanks.

 

 

And while you are nuking the tank the DPS wipes the floor with you, /simples

 

With a ST/DPS combo you really want to take care of the DPS first as the ST will only tickle you damage wise and if he has the DPS guarded he is only shortening his own life later on.

 

But I again think majority of the "what-if" posters seem to think that it's all about nuking the hell out of someone but not staying alive or keeping someone alive so the flying squads can come to clean up ^^

Edited June 18, 2012 by Mikroswitch
Typo's

[Ehral]

PT tanks get the same defensive CDs as PT dps. All PT specs can taunt. What are you gaining as a ST now? A little higher shield/absorb and a charge. Really, a 31 AP can use IGC and have nearly the same defenses but have more offensive capability and the option to switch to DPS if the team he ends up on has plenty of tanks.

 

What you are missing is the most underrated ability in the game: GUARD

 

And def cooldowns is not what makes us tanky

 

Edit: I see what you are saying. You'd actually use the IGC. Well, that's not a horrible idea and you really would be playing a tank still, but I don't think your dps would really be that much higher and you'd be a lot less mobile. Truth is, I've never been able to get the middle tree to do significantly more than my shield tree, though I may not have given it enough of a chance. And I love the charge too much to let it go.

Edited June 18, 2012 by Ehral