Marauder Q&A - DPS and you.

[naitee]

How force skill power scale with base stats?

 

I mean, maybe people think marauder is gimp because anni and carn builds need high end equips and mods to shine...

 

Maybe force power is more efficient at low levels equips...that's why is the probably the best end game spec at this moment..

[J-Slh]

I am quite interested in your opinions, please post more when you get the time. I do hope you can back this up, it would be a good find at least for me, seeing that Rage is the spec I have the least experience in. Edited December 20, 2011 by J-Slh

[Zandermill]

I'm not doing any comparison against the two spec's Juggernaut Vrs Marauder. I'm just Marauder as it's the only thing I am playing at the moment.

As for force power. I'm still working on that. But with it being Christmas time, and my store being busy. I may not really post anything until after New Years. Running a business aint easy lemme tell ya.

As for the basic idea of Juggernaut tree, versus Marauder. It's the exact same tree, with no secondary (weak) offhand damage. A Rage and Vengeance build wouldn't do half bad. You'll be losing secondary damage as you're offhand wont be there anymore. Idealistically what I'd build, just shooting from the hip if I was a Juggernaut rage spec.

 

Will post more later.

[EssFerret]

once there is combat log it will settle this debate.

 

it seems to me that OP is forgetting about CDs and rage point building. Yes in a world where there is no Rage point building or CDs this build would do amazing DPS but by going force you are using skills that cost a ton of rage and the rage tree doesn't offer enough rage point reduction cost or cool downs on the skills that you need.

 

Annihilate makes damage all the time, even when building rage points. Plus you get to run Juyo instead of shii-chin which is 7% damage buff on the melee strikes you are using in-between your CDs.

 

Carnage makes huge spikes, in between building rage points.

 

Both offer better CD reduction skills than Rage, including a skill in annihilate that will allow you to stack your bleed almost instantly, and a skill in carnage that allows you to have your big rage point builder back 20% faster.

 

As for Rage spec, OK you can do great crit damage to a group of strong mobs in pve but your role in the group stinks because you are supposed to be single target DPS and Off Tank and all you are doing is spreading yourself thinner and drawing too much aggro. I think a Jug with Rage spec is proper for solo pve and could have a role in the group as long as the healers and dps are doing the job, but you give up everything that the mara should be by taking Rage spec and just gimp yourself in your usefulness.

Edited December 20, 2011 by EssFerret

[Zandermill]

I actually did use rage as a base line of damage. Rage generation, to usage over 300 seconds. I guess if you guys want to try baseline testing. Take whichever spec you want to play. Find what your DPR is. (Damage per rage) of abilities on Torhead. Use the baseline values they give you. Calculate talents into those baselines, and adjust both cost, as well as damage to find your final DPR per ability.

 

Next take a scale of about five minutes or 300 seconds. Then take a slice of that chunk, say 30 seconds or ten percent. And figure out what your best DPR rotation would be in that block of time. This includes rage generation moves. This is sans cool downs. Assume that you'll have no misses or blocks. Find your total over those thirty seconds multiply it by ten, then divide by three hundred to get a basic idea of what your dps will be. (This is an optimal situation - it will never happen, but thats what theorycraft is about. The perfect rotation etc)

 

Obviously they are easier, but more complicated ways to do this. But it's all I'm going into now. If you believe I'm wrong. then no worries. That's why I asked for more input, then just my own. As I'm not a perfect theorycrafter.

[Zandermill]

As for Rage spec, OK you can do great crit damage to a group of strong mobs in pve but your role in the group stinks because you are supposed to be single target DPS and Off Tank and all you are doing is spreading yourself thinner and drawing too much aggro. I think a Jug with Rage spec is proper for solo pve and could have a role in the group as long as the healers and dps are doing the job, but you give up everything that the mara should be by taking Rage spec and just gimp yourself in your usefulness.

 

I'm sorry but Marauders are not off tanks, or tanks in any way shape or form. This is where I'll disagree with you completely. Smash is a dps gain with it's 4 stack, be it single target or multi target. It's similar to how Whirlwind used to be for DPS warriors in another game.

 

I haven't advocated on what other things a marauder can bring to the table. I gave a basic build for Juggernaut, in all of the three minutes it took to make it. But for the end debate. My goal is focused on Marauders, a damage dealing class only. We are not a CC class. We are strictly damage.

 

Carnage like I said. Is a lucky seven wheel, that will once in a blue moon come up with 7's. Otherwise it's lackluster. Gore is the only useful thing it brings, as the Ataru form attacks, are lackluster. Annihilation is a good tree, it gives more options, however it's still looking to be behind rage. However skill > talents. So a very good marauder at end game will see benefit to both. but basic dpr shows that you'll have more effect out of rage by 10%.

 

It's up to you to decide. I am not telling you that you have to spec Rage. Just saying that for me, someone who has theorycrafted a dps class in another game, this from doing what I have done, shows to be ahead. Again, I welcome you to do your own studies, and post your own mathematics, as what I have is firstly, something I'm still working on, secondly - waiting to see how other things effect my basis at end game, and thirdly just really busy at work, or at home playing.

[EssFerret]

Sorry but internet maths are not real maths. You set up your maths to show you that rage is best, you pick situations where rage performs best, and make up numbers to show it. 30 seconds? Fury doesn't even dissolve for 1 minute.. do you count that? Can I start a battle doing crits with bleed stacked 4 times?

 

You don't even know what an off tank is, so I know how much to value this thread now, thanks. The fact is with your build you are going to slamming your crit smash around lots of adds that are going to aggro you and ruin you. Get ready to apologize to your healer and look forward to your wipes.

 

Have you even played Annihilate or Carnage? You are proc-ing CDs that boost your DPS amazingly and stack hard. You also build rage way faster than Rage Tree allows. It all adds up to my internet maths that show it is clearly superior.

[Zandermill]

A Sith Rage Juggernaut can be an off tank. A Sith marauder is not, nor can it be an off tank. You could pop saber ward for the tenish second's it will help you? But then any boss worth it's salt will spread you like cream cheese over a hot bagel.

 

Also, please, don't troll. I've posted an opening rotation. As to what Rage can and can't do. I've not put anything in a vacuum. Nor am I going to argue a vacuum with you.

 

Am I saying you start with everything going? No. I'm assuming ramp up time. (You know what ramp up is, don't you?) Finally. If you want to attack me because I'm busy and unable to post everything, please by all means do. But also remember, adding an s onto math, doesn't make it a plural.

 

The other issue that I find humorous is. You're worried about Smash crits drawing aggro - which is an understandable viewpoint, but you then dismiss the fact that on single target bosses, a fully stacked smash, is in fact a dps increase.

 

Finally, and this is brought up again. I'm posting what I think is useful information, to help make as best an educated find that you'll have access to this early in the game. If I'm wrong I'll be sure to change and adjust my findings. So please either be helpful, or respectfully disagree with me. If you can not, then stay out of my thread.

 

Thank you.

[Lostpenguins]

There's actually some easy ways to test until the come out with Combat Logs. There's a few bosses in the lower instances. Bring a dedicated healer and go at it on the boss with different specs, but making sure you know how to do your rotations properly... and time it.

 

This won't be 100% accurate, but you can probably run the test a few times. If they are pretty close in time together then we know. If Rage or Carnage consistently takes a significant percent more time than Anni, than we know Anni is the best ST dps in PvE.

 

Yeah, there's a lot of things to consider in those testing situations such as RNG and user-knowledge of the spec. But still... it would give you a baseline versus napkin math.

 

I'd like to add... boo to Bioware for not providing in game combat logs so we can parse the damage...

[Zandermill]

Combat logs, and dummies to test on. Amen to that. But maybe they just dont want people being able to optimize a story based game? who knows.

[kidbs]

A Rage Marauder has 2x lightsabers, a Rage Juggernaut only has one. Which one is the gimpy DPS now?

 

The offhand saber doesn't do nearly as much damage as the mainhand, plus juggernauts innately get bonus damage for using a single saber so that part evens out.

 

For all we know, rage juggs may end up doing more dps than rage maras.

[Lostpenguins]

Combat logs, and dummies to test on. Amen to that. But maybe they just dont want people being able to optimize a story based game? who knows.

 

If they don't add in combat logs then they will probably lose a lot of subscribers. I won't stay, that's for sure. I don't want to get into a DPS Meter argument on this thread, anyone who disagrees let's not go there. I will respect your opinion that you don't agree with meters for now.

 

But, the big thing is, especially for Marauders who can only DPS, we need to know what are optimal specs and rotations. And, right now, we're guessing based on how we feel about whatever we are doing.

 

Tanking is somewhat easier to gauge: did the boss and/or adds stay focused on you?

Healing: Did people stay alive? Especially the tank.

 

As for DPS, though, you have no idea you're doing well compared to others. The only thing I can tell is that my guildie's merc does the most AoE and I can do more ST, but that's sort of guessing.

[Zandermill]

Sith Jugs get 6% bonus main hand damage.

Lets Take an example of a main hand At say 136 - 171 *1.06 = 144.16 - 181.26

 

Sith Marauder main hand of 128 - 162 And offhand of 32 - 55.

Well with proper talents the 32 - 55 become 43.52 - 74.8.

White damage and specials are affected by talents, and with talents, even with a potential lower main hand swing (Due to not getting access to Strength increasing talents) Marauders will hit slightly less harder, but hit more often and deal more damage over all.

 

For example let's take Obliterate off the base talent tree. I'm only comparing one talent, versus another talent. In the same tree sect. In this case Jugg Vengeance Vrs Marauder Caranage. Single Saber Mastery Vrs Dual Wield Mastery.

Obliterate Juggernaut hits for 342 -505 if it's modified as it should be with single saber mastery will be 342 - 505 * 1.06 = 362.52 - 535.3.

 

Obliterate Marauder Hits 342 - 505 main hand. Now offhand is tricky. Offhand marauder damage is about 30% of what the main hand hits for. (If equal rating weapons)

So offhand for a Marauder is 342 - 505 or about 102.6 - 151.5 *1.36 = 139.53 - 206.04.

Now again, napkin math at work, I'd need to verify if they modify talents before they reduce the offhand damage, or after they reduce the damage.

 

Comparing the two, you see Marauder comes out ahead of Juggernaut, due to the offhand nature of the Marauder. My math be wrong, it's Christmas, and I'm basically scribbling down on a note pad when I'm not busy so. /Shrug YMMV.

 

If I'm wrong, please let me know where, so I can change stuff. ^-^

[kidbs]

Sith Jugs get 6% bonus main hand damage.

Lets Take an example of a main hand At say 136 - 171 *1.06 = 144.16 - 181.26

 

Sith Marauder main hand of 128 - 162 And offhand of 32 - 55.

Well with proper talents the 32 - 55 become 43.52 - 74.8.

White damage and specials are affected by talents, and with talents, even with a potential lower main hand swing (Due to not getting access to Strength increasing talents) Marauders will hit slightly less harder, but hit more often and deal more damage over all.

 

For example let's take Obliterate off the base talent tree. I'm only comparing one talent, versus another talent. In the same tree sect. In this case Jugg Vengeance Vrs Marauder Caranage. Single Saber Mastery Vrs Dual Wield Mastery.

Obliterate Juggernaut hits for 342 -505 if it's modified as it should be with single saber mastery will be 342 - 505 * 1.06 = 362.52 - 535.3.

 

Obliterate Marauder Hits 342 - 505 main hand. Now offhand is tricky. Offhand marauder damage is about 30% of what the main hand hits for. (If equal rating weapons)

So offhand for a Marauder is 342 - 505 or about 102.6 - 151.5 *1.36 = 139.53 - 206.04.

Now again, napkin math at work, I'd need to verify if they modify talents before they reduce the offhand damage, or after they reduce the damage.

 

Comparing the two, you see Marauder comes out ahead of Juggernaut, due to the offhand nature of the Marauder. My math be wrong, it's Christmas, and I'm basically scribbling down on a note pad when I'm not busy so. /Shrug YMMV.

 

If I'm wrong, please let me know where, so I can change stuff. ^-^

 

It's true that a marauder's obliterate will likely hit harder but a juggernaut's smash will hit harder than a marauder's due to the Decimate talent. So in the end it's really hard to tell who will come out ahead without a combat log and a parser.

[Zandermill]

Should have a solid idea of 50 end game rotation in the next few days...

[Temeluchus]

I always wonder how all these people claim to know or have the best dps spec and rotation when we have no combats logs to parse to prove their claims.

 

I tested all the Mara specs in various beta builds and all 3 are competitve,viable and have their merits in PvE and PvP but I couldn't give you any solid data on which is the best spec or has the most dps. All I can say is I prefer the pure burst of Carnage over the others, in my opinion.

 

I guess you could have someone eyeball the damage as you attack something but that isn't very reliable and the damage total from warzones is unreliable due to CC and the like and is wildly inaccurate.

[Moba]

Thanks for your post, its very interesting.

 

I have a question though regarding Carnage, wouldnt that be a more viable spec because of Gore and the ability to bypass armour 100%?

[KammerTime]

The Gore armor pen is only for a short time, it costs rage to use, and has a CD with it, 100% is nice but it has restrictions. The ArmorPen in the Rage tree is all the time on all physical abils, no CD, no rage price tag, so over the course of a fight its going to do more sustained dmg.

 

One of the things i keep seeing is that carnage has burst and annihilation has bleeds. while those are nice they both require procs, and imo the bleeds really dont really scale well.

 

Some other very nice rage tree abils/passives are reduced incoming dmg and global CD reduction on all force abils. The top of the tree offers more dmg reduction and for marauders this is amazing since and ranged silver mod gives us trouble.

[Moba]

The Gore armor pen is only for a short time, it costs rage to use, and has a CD with it, 100% is nice but it has restrictions. The ArmorPen in the Rage tree is all the time on all physical abils, no CD, no rage price tag, so over the course of a fight its going to do more sustained dmg.

 

One of the things i keep seeing is that carnage has burst and annihilation has bleeds. while those are nice they both require procs, and imo the bleeds really dont really scale well.

 

Some other very nice rage tree abils/passives are reduced incoming dmg and global CD reduction on all force abils. The top of the tree offers more dmg reduction and for marauders this is amazing since and ranged silver mod gives us trouble.

 

ok i'm sold, which trees should i level up first. I'm lvl 24 and havent used any of my skill points yet lol.

[Zandermill]

The reason I didnt go carnage, is. Carnage plays like a warrior from wow. You're super duper amazing when (Gore - In Wow Colossal Smash) is up. But mediocre when it's not there. Ataru form needs to have its generated attacks hit harder. But because they are white hits you don't get bonus damage at all. (Obviously you've got the 30% base line increase from talents, but that's that.)

 

Basically you have to make carnage the best it can be, you have to pool rage, and your best abilities and drop them all within the gore window for maximized damage. So it's a crap shoot for how things will go. If everything crits in that window, and Ataru is hitting every 1.5 seconds it'll be idealistically within 5-10% of Rage. (Note that if you have the very best gear possible from Nightmare mode, you may come out ahead)

 

Really the reason Rage over takes, is the sheer ease of scaling. 20% Passive armor pen is precociously overpowered, along with the increase crit for all tech / force.

 

I could be wrong. But thats just what I'm looking at currently.

[Temeluchus]

The reason I didnt go carnage, is. Carnage plays like a warrior from wow. You're super duper amazing when (Gore - In Wow Colossal Smash) is up. But mediocre when it's not there. Ataru form needs to have its generated attacks hit harder. But because they are white hits you don't get bonus damage at all. (Obviously you've got the 30% base line increase from talents, but that's that.)

 

Basically you have to make carnage the best it can be, you have to pool rage, and your best abilities and drop them all within the gore window for maximized damage. So it's a crap shoot for how things will go. If everything crits in that window, and Ataru is hitting every 1.5 seconds it'll be idealistically within 5-10% of Rage. (Note that if you have the very best gear possible from Nightmare mode, you may come out ahead)

 

Really the reason Rage over takes, is the sheer ease of scaling. 20% Passive armor pen is precociously overpowered, along with the increase crit for all tech / force.

 

I could be wrong. But thats just what I'm looking at currently.

 

I respect your opinions and a lot of your information is based on fact, but you are tossing around a lot of supposition as well. Like I said before, we have no combat logs nor extensive enough testing of all the specs in raiding to know which spec is best and by how much.

 

I understand you are making an educated guess from the abilities and possibly using mathematical equations to figure such things out, but until we have more data,even with the math, it still remains a guessing game.

 

Also have to ask, where does Accuracy fit into your stat priorities for the Rage spec? Still 110% then stack the other secondary stats or not?

Edited December 24, 2011 by Temeluchus

[Zandermill]

Accuracy to 110% still leaves a wide margin for offhand misses. The other thing is, whether or not accuracy over 110 is linear or not. If it is, and it works in a sense like armor pen, then every point over 110% is worth more then the previous point.

 

At 50 Currently, I'd go back to a figure of strength > Acc 110 > crit - surge > power. The thing with Crit and Surge, they both compliment each other, I'd put crit ahead of surge by a small margin, due to the Rage Tree's additional 30% force damage increase which plays to smash's insanely strong single target damage.

 

If however, going back from my tangent, accuracy continues to see increasing gains, and acts in a mannerism similar to armor penetration - then Accuracy will be the single go to stat. However, this actually does require significant dps meter testing to find out if it works that way.

[Temeluchus]

Accuracy to 110% still leaves a wide margin for offhand misses. The other thing is, whether or not accuracy over 110 is linear or not. If it is, and it works in a sense like armor pen, then every point over 110% is worth more then the previous point.

 

At 50 Currently, I'd go back to a figure of strength > Acc 110 > crit - surge > power. The thing with Crit and Surge, they both compliment each other, I'd put crit ahead of surge by a small margin, due to the Rage Tree's additional 30% force damage increase which plays to smash's insanely strong single target damage.

 

If however, going back from my tangent, accuracy continues to see increasing gains, and acts in a mannerism similar to armor penetration - then Accuracy will be the single go to stat. However, this actually does require significant dps meter testing to find out if it works that way.

 

Ok thanks,man. I have to admit, you have me sold on at least testing out your Rage spec. It is the one spec I mostly ignored during my beta testing but you convinced me to give it a shot.

[DemonSoliloquy]

While I haven't done any LEGIT testing due to lack of combat logs/damage addons, I believe the only support that rage is the best PvE tree is the 20% ArP. It has unnecesary talents for PvE such as:

- Strangulate - The CC on FC is lost on bosses, and nobody should be giving you pushback if you cast it, for the tank should be the one with the aggro.

- Interceptor - Afaik, there are no movement intensive fights in the game atm that require a movement increase, especially after casting a 10m range attack that puts you right next to your target

- Undying - Damage reduction and cooldown reduction on undying are uneeded for you should not take any massive amounts of damage for the 3% to even make a difference nor for you to need the 1 MIN CD undying rage instead of the 1MIN 30 SEC.

- Unbreakable Rage - Nobody interrupts you in PvE.

Also I have not done any damage tests with smash but I doubt an AoE spell would be viable in a single target fight.

 

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http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#100bIbRrRMcGzZhGb.1

 

This build on the other hand, I think is much better in terms of single target DPS in PvE.

 

Every talent compliments each other, there really is no talent point that is wasted.

There is significantly faster fury build-up with this tree due to short fuse and defensive forms[if you ever take damage from side attacks] meaning more Berserk/BT/Predation uses which is the greatest usefulness of a marauder imo.

 

Another great thing is Subjugation.

It reduces the cooldown on Disruption [some bosses can be interrupted], and Obfuscate[ Can be used on ANY boss].

Obfuscate is obviously the greatest of these two, for it's basically a 6-second window where your tank has 90% damage evasion. This is great for when any mistakes happen in raid.

So now you have a raid-saving ability on a 45 sec CD!

 

I'm open to suggestions, and if you all wish I'll post more of my builds.

I love playing around with the marauder's tree for this is my favorite class and I plan on sticking with it for a while.

[Fortypopper]

Thanks for taking the time to put this together.