Why Bounty Hunters are not viable in 1.2/1.3

[Epiphany-Rising]

Wow, I agree with nothing concerning the DPS part of being a merc. The aoe works just fine if you know where to aim. I take out weak mobs and adds during ops/HMs for my guild without a problem. As for heat, I never get close to running out unless I'm doing it purposefully in a race against enrage/death. I don't mean to be rude when I say this, but it seems as though you don't have enough practice with the BH merc. I shovel out burst dps like it's my jawb.

 

However, I can see how you would want interrupt, but I don't think it's a big deal. Yes, it'd be good/fair to have one, but we don't really need it, especially when so many classes, if not all others, have it.

 

I personally think the BH is a bad *** class with a lot of variety to it. Gotta love being able to cleanse 7 stacks of that poison during the boss fight in LI, and emergency healing in a pinch when your tank misses an interrupt and needs extra heals. Not to mention how much endurance we have. When buffed and stim'ed right now, i get 2046 aim and 1790 end. That's a lot of HP for a dps.

 

On my sorc the force I regen over the cast time for Force Storm recoups the cost of Force Storm. In other words I can do it forever at zero cost.

 

Sweeping Blasters (which I have used on occasion as the heat cost is stupid) just has too many limits.

 

I guess it really comes down to preferences.

 

I prefer a game where each class seems to be given equal attention and, to me, much of the BH class (which was my first 50) just seems lacking compared to my other 50's and yes, endgame story is pitiful for the three I've played so far (and I don't expect #4 to be any different).

 

In EC, Firebrand/Stormcaller for example I find I'm fine on the tanks but when the mobs come out under the shield if I'm on the set with 3 (Firebrand) to kill them all in the phase I'm overheating.

 

Comparable does not necessarily mean identical. As a "ranged" DPS for me to walk in to use my Jet Boost to knock people back is contrary to what I'm supposed to be doing (aka shooting stuff at range until it dies). Using an AOE ability where only 3 of the 5 meter radius is effectively useful for more than the first hit because the rest is knocked out of the radius is also pretty useless. Using an ability that uses 1/3rd of your heat (Fusion Missile, Sweeping Blasters) has to have a decent payoff and, right now, they don't.

 

I can literally ignore my force situation on my sorc. I can go forever. My IA I can pretty much ignore energy as the regen ability is so high, you just learn to do it as part of your rotation (much much shorter cooldown than vent heat.

 

I can't ignore my heat on my merc and have to watch it like a hawk. Again, some strides have been made and more are being made from what has been stated in 1.3 so it should improve things. I actually like the fact that our damage has been stretched out instead of being so front loading.

 

For me AOE, Interrupt, heat cost too high (for both DPS and heals, I was a healer for most of my leveling but just couldn't take it anymore at level 43 and switched to DPS though I have switched back to heal periodically and have a full Rakata healing set) are all in need of adjustment.

 

I love the IA story line. The Sorc/Assassin story line is pretty good too. Ours not so much.

 

Well, off for surgery. Thank-you for your opinions along the way and all the best.

[Jovanni]

"Healing:

Merc healing is a joke. Everything costs too much heat wise (other than rapid shot with the support canister freebie) or has too limited a return so it's next to impossible to heal an operation boss encounter that runs 5 minutes because you get maxed out heat wise too much. We are a tech class like IA ops so make us the equivalent of IA ops in healing because right now, we're nowhere close. Again, inconvenient afterthought. and total lack of respect."

 

This is the main reason why I stopped playing the game. As a healing merc, I could do nothing in operations because my heat would max out way too quick when it already took skill to learn how to avoid that before 1.2. Being a merc healer in PvP is a joke, once again the heat maxes out too fast. I went from finishing most PvP games in the top 3 most healing, to the bottom 3.

[Sookster]

Lack of adequate AOE? LOL I clear dailies mobs with DFA-SB-FT all the time.

 

Lack of interrupt? Yup, fight Sel-makor and you're forced to hump the pillars to fight him, he was no problems at all on my assassin and powertech. Or fight a mob of cross-healers and end up having to just run away.

 

I have all classes at 50 now, IMO operative (dps) is the least viable class in both pve and pvp which is why it's my main healer, merc however is far from useless.

Edited June 18, 2012 by Sookster

[sullysmith]

For those that can play on the merc, can you tell me how you beat the "Avatar of Sel-Makor" on Voss? I abandoned my merc on Voss because after 15 tries I was not able to beat this guy. No interupt. Cant do much against him.

 

Since then I have lvled a number of toons to 50. Cant do a darn thing on the merc and I consider it a total broken class. So please if you are good at your merc, how do you beat that guy?

 

I had some trouble with him too, had to get a guildmate to come and help me.

[DakSomtaaw]

I use it at least 3 times when we're taking down a mob of adds before I even notice any heat issues. Yeah it costs 33 heat, but by the time you finish channeling your down to 18. Throw a rapid shots inbetween every cast and essentially you can spam it for quite a while. Learn how to use your skills instead of dismissing them.

 

That wasnt his point and you know it.

 

It is NOT spammable like Force Storm. You can not continually use it non stop. That was his point.

[tausser]

Hit 50 on my merc this past Sunday and finally stopped piddling around and spec'd him (Arsenal) last night: personal challenge, after reading in forums here that someone had played a toon (class not specified) to 50 before spec'ing it and wanted to try it myself.

 

Was pretty easy actually but don't know if, after a 46 GS and 50s JK and Vanguard, it's that I've gotten better playing the game or if the BH is that kick-ish a class. (Course, I play by being over-leveled to the content so that helps a lot, too - that and top-notch gear provided by my 50s as I went along.)

 

After then playing for a few hours spec'd, I'm sure this guy would have been even more fun to play if I'd spec'd him as I went.

 

Now it's off to Corellia to do Chapter 3.

 

And just for the record, yes, I did have to ask for help with Sel-Makor.

Edited June 20, 2012 by tausser
more info

[dcgregorya]

#1: Inequality of AOE:

Bounty Hunters have the lowest radius AOE with the biggest problem with it. Knock back frequently knocks anything out of range of every additional hit if they were near the periphery of the AOE making it, effectively, useless in the case of Death From Above. Fusion Missile takes too long and costs too much (compared to Orbital Strike / Force Storm). Explosive Dart doesn't do enough damage.

 

And yet, mercs almost always dominate the leaderboards with death from above. Of all the classes to complain about AOE damage, merc/powertech are not among them.

 

For equality all AOE DPS should be:

Same size effected

Same base damage

Same cast time

Same interrupt status (Orb Strike, once cast can't be interrupted, Force Storm and DFA can be)

Same effect on standard and low level toons (Knock down, not back, equivalent of Stun)

Same cooldown

 

Explanation: Force Storm can be spammed pretty much forever at virtually zero cost to Sorcs. Give all AOE that ability or limit Force Storm. Give ALL AOE the same cooldown. Size wise give all AOE the same radius. Base Damage, give ALL AOE the same base damage (modified as appropriate by AIM/Tech/Power for us) so that all classes are on equal footing. Have the AOE duration be the same in all cases and have all AOE either be or not be uninterrupted (aka make it channeled or not, one way or the other for all). Just as other classes have low end AOE with limited targets effected we have explosive dart (Chain Lightning, Toxic Dart, etc.). Fusion missile takes too long to cast, has limited return, costs too much heat and effects limited targets compared to other choices. Either remove it or fix it so that it's comparable to other classes abilities (IA have more than one low level ability for example).

[/Quote]

 

BORING. No not every class ability should be exactly the same. Should Sentinels have force storm? Should orbital strike have a faster tick time? Different classes are different.

 

#2: Twelve Second Cooldown interrupt

Give us one. All other classes have it, we don't.

[/Quote]

 

Agreed. Either that or a healing debuff. Need some way to deal with healers.

 

#3: Long fight viability:

Great strides have been made here to make us useful in a longer fight however more work needs to be done. My Sorcerer NEVER goes even remotely near out of force. Rarely goes below 85% and normally ends a fight at or near 100% even though I do a ton of damage (more than my Campaign/Black Hole geared Merc even though I'm mostly Rakata with a couple of Black Hole and Columi items on the Sorc, mostly because there is zero downtime as I never run out of resources).

[/Quote]

 

Then play a sorc. I have no heat issues on my merc in either DPS spec.

 

#4: Respect:

It's almost like the Bounty Hunter story was an inconvenient afterthought. Like the class was created just so there would be four base classes not three. Compared to the IA storyline (and the Sorc and so far Warrior story line) ours pretty much blows. The IA Storyline is amazing in comparison. While our Damage was great pre 1.2 we were mostly just spamming Tracer a lot. Yes, rotation has improved but again it's like trying to kiss an amputation to make it better.

[/Quote]

 

I love the BH storyline. I guess it is a subjective thing.

 

Healing:

Merc healing is a joke. Everything costs too much heat wise (other than rapid shot with the support canister freebie) or has too limited a return so it's next to impossible to heal an operation boss encounter that runs 5 minutes because you get maxed out heat wise too much. We are a tech class like IA ops so make us the equivalent of IA ops in healing because right now, we're nowhere close. Again, inconvenient afterthought. and total lack of respect.

[/Quote]

 

Merc energy management is far easier than sorc for long fights. Merc healers are fine.

 

Tanking:

As has been mentioned before other classes can leap or rush to a target. We can't. Other classes can both leap and pull, we can pull "sometimes". With 1.3 Powertech tanks will probably be very popular for many reasons but there are still many opportunities for improvement here.

[/Quote]

 

I have a level 50 vanguard who main tanks for my guild. Powertechs can absolutely charge to an enemy *AND* pull. Please learn the class before complaining.

 

It is my hope again that these comments both resonate with my fellow bounty hunters and inspire some changes from Bioware.

 

As always comments and opinions are welcome.

 

It's my hope that you learn the class better or change to a class that fits your playstyle.

[RoenHawk]

The AOE range of death from above needs to be changed to 8m. The spell is basicly usless now that they put it to 5m. I would rather have it's damage cut in half right now and range set to 10m like force storm. it is way to easy to avoide death from above now. The one or two hits you get on peeple if your lucky is not worth casting it. you get more DPS from shooting your blasters at the target then the 1 or two hits before they run out of it's limited Aoe range. Before they nurfed the spell to 5m i used it all the time. now I only use it when pvpers are storming the door or the inital run to the ball in hutt ball. Dev's need to fix it.

[Zakuen]

Also agreeing with alot of the initial post. Took a little break myself and came back to all the 1.2 changs and just, wow did I feel left behind. Before I felt like a hero out there fighting in PVE and PVP and now I feel weakened by the darkside big time. I understand wanting to do balance issues, but as most have said, usualy something else will offset those issues. BH's don't have near as much utility as other classes seem to bring anymore. Depending on the spec of course, but in my head we were to bring DPS to the table. Some are good at sustained, some aeo and some direct burst, right now I don't feel we're good at any of these things and it's become frustrating to play.

[darwinschainsaw]

For those that can play on the merc, can you tell me how you beat the "Avatar of Sel-Makor" on Voss? I abandoned my merc on Voss because after 15 tries I was not able to beat this guy. No interupt. Cant do much against him.

 

Since then I have lvled a number of toons to 50. Cant do a darn thing on the merc and I consider it a total broken class. So please if you are good at your merc, how do you beat that guy?

 

Yeah, that dude was pretty beast. I only fought him on my juggernaut tank so far, and that's the only time that toon ever took a dirt nap. My BH dies all the time though.

[T-Assassin]

Yeah, that dude was pretty beast. I only fought him on my juggernaut tank so far, and that's the only time that toon ever took a dirt nap. My BH dies all the time though.

 

this right here is why i keep posting in the BH forums...

 

i had the LEAST amount of trouble with any/all boss, champ, elite mobs on my Merc/PT.

 

i think he got me to 70%...LOL...

 

kite, LoS pillars...too easy.

 

BH...you're doing it wrong.

Edited June 21, 2012 by T-Assassin

[darwinschainsaw]

I haven't fought him with mah BH just yet. Just specced from Advanced Prototype to Pyrotech though, and it seems far more fun and powerful. Got a gunnery specced trooper too, probably going to respec to heals with that one.

[CoyoteSixGuns]

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=412698 the original thread about DFA with no aoe

[lynspottery]

I have been reviewing the posts here about the BH Mercenary. I was particularly dismayed to find that what I want to do on my Merc may not be viable and that is to heal. So far I have respecced to dps and am not really happy with that because I would prefer to heal. The healing aspect for the mercenary is truly atrocious.

 

I have a Sorcerer which I leveled as a healer and really enjoyed that. I learned how to make it efficient so that I rarely ran out of force..my thanks to my guild mates who helped me with my setup.

 

However, we ran EV story mode last week with IA and Merc healers. The AOE heals for the merc were very weak and the group ended up wiping because we could not keep our health up long enough to down SOA. The group usually has a Sorcerer and an IA healer running and have no issues but the sorcerer was not available so we pulled in the Merc healer to help us out. He even admitted that the extra healing that comes from the Sorc healing circle beats his heals any day of the week.

 

In my opinion (and this is just from my view), that if the Merc healer cannot be fixed to a better level, no raid will ask for one and no one will play it. I certainly won't. I'll just switch over to my Sorcerer. I truly like the Merc story line and enjoy playing it but not if I cannot get the necessary boost in heals that I already have in my Sorc.

[Mordeguy]

I have been reviewing the posts here about the BH Mercenary. I was particularly dismayed to find that what I want to do on my Merc may not be viable and that is to heal. So far I have respecced to dps and am not really happy with that because I would prefer to heal. The healing aspect for the mercenary is truly atrocious.

 

I have a Sorcerer which I leveled as a healer and really enjoyed that. I learned how to make it efficient so that I rarely ran out of force..my thanks to my guild mates who helped me with my setup.

 

However, we ran EV story mode last week with IA and Merc healers. The AOE heals for the merc were very weak and the group ended up wiping because we could not keep our health up long enough to down SOA. The group usually has a Sorcerer and an IA healer running and have no issues but the sorcerer was not available so we pulled in the Merc healer to help us out. He even admitted that the extra healing that comes from the Sorc healing circle beats his heals any day of the week.

 

In my opinion (and this is just from my view), that if the Merc healer cannot be fixed to a better level, no raid will ask for one and no one will play it. I certainly won't. I'll just switch over to my Sorcerer. I truly like the Merc story line and enjoy playing it but not if I cannot get the necessary boost in heals that I already have in my Sorc.

 

Soa is definitely more challenging without a sorc/sage, but certainly doable. missile/rapid people as you drop, know where to stop and heal up. Even without a sorc/sage you can have everyone to full health without stressing your healers resources before each phase. Have dps that can heal toss a few out, have stealthies vanish and OOC regen. I would say merc is definitely the "worst" of the healers, but you can merc heal any content in this game and they are by no means bad or gimped.

 

No, viable and ideal are not the same thing, but a capable player and guild working as a team can take any class playing any of their given roles and succeed.

 

As for the sorc aoe heal, for what it's used for it blows away any heal that op or merc have, it's more of a sorc strength not an op/merc weakness.

[Fossman]

Disagree with pretty much everything the OP said. I love my merc

 

Would also like to add since some other people commented on this earlier that sweeping blasters while not "spammable" is amazing for the add phase on kephess. Drop 1. Pop Thermal sensor override. Drop another. Heats back to 0. Drop another. Drop another. My DPS sky rockets past everyone. Even sorcs spamming force storm =/ damage wise I would say sweeping blasters is superior. The only advantage force storm has is low resource cost and a much larger radius. And with new heat reduction passive its even easier to manage.

[skotish]

I never had issues with sir melkor i just healed my companion through his damage then jumped in to kb on him

[Tobradex]

It has been established by sims, napkin math by theorycrafters such as RuQu, and the results of healing meters that Merc healers, while viable, are underperforming compared to sorcerers and operative in PvE since the 1.2 patch nerf.

 

Much like Operatives pre 1.2, a good merc can clear content. However, an equally skilled and geared sorcerer or operative will perform much better and be able to get through oh #%@# situations, in a less than optimal raid group, that mercs will struggle through. Mercs being UP goes against the "bring the player, not the class" motto which most MMO players hope that their MMO of choice aspires to achieve with regard to balance.

 

HEALING MERCS NEED A BUFF

Edited June 27, 2012 by Tobradex

[Canis_Anubis]

Homogenizing the classes is NOT the right solution. If anything, bump up the cost of Force Storm. Problem solved.

[digimass]

pre 1.2 I was the top dps class. I was gearing up at the time, and had a mix of columi and tio. The other mercs I was playing with in raids were better geared and had me beat by 100k. They were setting the top mark for all the dps involved, and 2nd place was me most of that phase. !.2 comes, and I am geared rakata. My dps took a drop at the beginning, but I compensated for Bio's nerf. spec building, stacking stats, etc. by the end of 1.2 I wasn't the best dps, but i was one of the best geared ones. Managing the combat was not enjoyable, and delivering dps for raids wasn't the lowest, and closer to the top. I've always stayed within 50-100k overall damage to our top guys though, and I could deal with that.

 

Now with 1.3 I am embarresed to call myself dps. We raided two different sets last night , and constantly the top geared dps, is now the lowest on the dps chart. Our other merc played with pyro, and in pve put 200k easy between the two of us. This really makes me sick. If Bioware can't un funk the Arsenal spec, they will loose me, and probably many other mercs as customers. Stop nerfing the premier dps class, or return us to pre 1.2 or I'll find another game.

[digimass]

and a side note:

 

CHARACTER CHOICES IMPACT THE GAMEPLAY EXPERIENCE THROUGH STORY LINES, ABILITIES, COMPANIONS AND QUESTS. WE INVITE YOU TO TRY SOME DIFFERENT CLASSES, AND SEE IF PERHAPS A CHANGE OF CHARACTER CAN OPTIMIZE YOUR EXPERIENCE WITHIN THE GAME.

 

this is what they say when you want to cancel your account. Maybe something isn't working for you, so try something you don't want because it's probably better.... I picked Merc Arsenal because I wanted to DPS. when thats working, let me know, but I'm not going to give you any more money till then.

[Individual]

No. Every class should not be the same. That's the problem wow had for a while, they tried to make everything too similar in response to complaints just like yours. Accept there are differences.

 

And your AOE is better than operatives for short bursts due to the instant activation. It takes 6 seconds for the first tick of orbital strike to hit, and then two more ticks 3 seconds apart each. It hits hard, but it also has weakness which gets in the way in some operation encounters.

 

 

 

Sure. Give up your knockback though. Operatives get the interrupt, but no knockback. Or you could give up your in combat cc (operatives don't get one). Or you could give up your heavy armor which no other ranged has, and even melee don't have it. or give up your target debuff. Get the idea? You have some stuff, other people have some different stuff.

 

#3: Long fight viability:

I didn't understand your point. Merc are balanced around sitting at optimal heat, giving you infinite longevity.

 

 

 

Er. I have no trouble healing hard mode ops on my alt BH healer. And there is no time limit on your healing. The heat management is the same as with dps, you need to stay in your sweet spot. While you can sometimes go into heat debt, doing so is a bad idea if you don't have a cooldown up to get out of it. BH aren't great aoe healers, or multi-target healers, but your aoe heal does boost other healers aoe healing, which is a fun synergy.

 

To me mercs, dps mercs at least, just need a small dps boost and fixes to arpen. The rest is working quite fine. I know people complain in pvp but I don't see it. Tho i heal in pvp (and love it, being almost invincible with a guard on me and uninterrupts on shields is simply amazing after playing an operative).

 

Ok, you obviously don't have a merc. The longivity is an issue for us too. I can go through a rotation of stuff and almost max out my heat before someone is even dead. Also, you want an knockback!? You say give up our knockback for a interumpt? How about we give you the knockback if you give up your aoe flashbang? The flashback is better then the knockback. We can knock someone back, but half the classes in this game have gap closers which make the knockback pointless.

[gios]

pre 1.2 I was the top dps class. I was gearing up at the time, and had a mix of columi and tio. The other mercs I was playing with in raids were better geared and had me beat by 100k. They were setting the top mark for all the dps involved, and 2nd place was me most of that phase. !.2 comes, and I am geared rakata. My dps took a drop at the beginning, but I compensated for Bio's nerf. spec building, stacking stats, etc. by the end of 1.2 I wasn't the best dps, but i was one of the best geared ones. Managing the combat was not enjoyable, and delivering dps for raids wasn't the lowest, and closer to the top. I've always stayed within 50-100k overall damage to our top guys though, and I could deal with that.

 

Now with 1.3 I am embarresed to call myself dps. We raided two different sets last night , and constantly the top geared dps, is now the lowest on the dps chart. Our other merc played with pyro, and in pve put 200k easy between the two of us. This really makes me sick. If Bioware can't un funk the Arsenal spec, they will loose me, and probably many other mercs as customers. Stop nerfing the premier dps class, or return us to pre 1.2 or I'll find another game.

 

ROFLMAO. Pre-1.2 there wasn't combat logging. How do you have any idea how much damage you were doing, let alone any of the others you were raiding with?

 

*With* 1.3 I've experienced a 200dps increase. I now compete at the levels of *good* marauders and dps juggs that *know* how to optimize their rotations and gear. And this is HM EC mind you. Not a 4-man or ez mode NiM EV/KP. (Ops group is 3/4 HM EC with Kephiss due to be down VERY soon, and we have zero issues with DPS bottlenecks of encounters, ie no enrage timers etc...)

 

If you lack in dps, you haven't optimized your play or stats. I had a guildie that did all the datacrons and easily added 100+ dps after finishing.

 

So if you're telling me that you've done all datacrons in the game that benefit your dps, AND have optimized your gear to be at caps for crit and surge (30% / 75%), and subsequently added more power to your gear by swapping in BH gear mods, then all I can say is you're doing something wrong.

[midnitemonster]

This is quite possibly the dumbest thread I have seen on the BH forums ever...