Maefly Posted January 13, 2012 Author Share Posted January 13, 2012 I'd say it's pretty much an core Ability as an Melee, at least i would not go without. Even if encounters don't have strong ae's we can ignore the weaker ones. I am http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#501bIbRrRMcGzZhMMZh.1 for Watchman. There are definitely some preference points in there. I would hope that an encounter would not require a mere 30% AOE reduction to survive and, as of yet, have not run into one where I have said, "I wish I had 30% aoe reduction, we would have won that fight". Most of the time I'm saying "I wish we could put out just a bit more DPS to bring down the adds / boss faster" and that's where taking 3/3 Steadfast comes into play allowing me to allocate more strength, power, surge, and crit instead of accuracy. However, there are between 2 and 4 optional points in each of the builds and it really depends on preference. I hope people are reading the thought process behind the trees and adjusting them for their play style / groups and not simply copying them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sath_Wishes Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 There are definitely some preference points in there. I would hope that an encounter would not require a mere 30% AOE reduction to survive and, as of yet, have not run into one where I have said, "I wish I had 30% aoe reduction, we would have won that fight". Well can't deny that, but fact is that Melee's are eating more Damage and eating more Heals, i try to reduce the amount of extra heal i need. Most of the time I'm saying "I wish we could put out just a bit more DPS to bring down the adds / boss faster" and that's where taking 3/3 Steadfast comes into play allowing me to alocate more strength, power, surge, and crit instead of accuracy. Well, that's a fair point. More Damage is never wrong, still with the 30% AE Damage reduce, i can stay longer and bosses than without, that was my thought progress behind this. But yes, the Extrahit looks nice *-* However, there are between 2 and 4 optional points in each of the builds and it really depends on preference. I hope people are reading the thought process behind the trees and adjusting them for their play style / groups and not simply copying them. True that, it's not like everyone is playing this game on the way / level /whatever. Trying something else is never wrong. btw, why isn't the 6% Crit in your Build ? Doesn't this work on Watchman Dots ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maefly Posted January 13, 2012 Author Share Posted January 13, 2012 btw, why isn't the 6% Crit in your Build ? Doesn't this work on Watchman Dots ? Has anyone confirmed that burns are considered force? I know this question was raised a little while ago but unsure if it has been confirmed. Assuming they are, 6% more crit is defiantly an option. You did have to sacrifice 100% damage reduction on force camo, which I find amazingly useful for dodging insta-kill things, and you would still need to beef up accuracy on your gear. If not, you're only adding 6% crit to Storm and Sweep which I tend to use infrequently unless I have extra focus and everything else is on cooldown. I think they real math balance would be spending those 3 points on crit (our lowest priority and poorest scaling stat) vs spending them on Steadfast allowing us to stack more strength, power and surge. It is far to early for me to do that type of math but I suspect swapping out that 100ish accuracy points for 100 points of the other stats would be better dps vs a 6% increase crit on dots that have a 100% crit chance every 20 seconds or so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sath_Wishes Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 I have no Idea, i really thought everything that pops up in white is normal Damage, like from attacks and stuff and yellow is all the force Stuff. I now crit isn't that great, but i'ts 2% per Point and hit just 1% for each Point, which seems a little poor to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maefly Posted January 13, 2012 Author Share Posted January 13, 2012 I have no Idea, i really thought everything that pops up in white is normal Damage, like from attacks and stuff and yellow is all the force Stuff. I now crit isn't that great, but i'ts 2% per Point and hit just 1% for each Point, which seems a little poor to me. You have to look at it more in terms of stat points vs % So yes, 6% is numerically higher than 3% but that 6% only affects 5 abilities, assuming burns are considered force. Something to think about, if burns are considered force, Marauders Bleeds would also have to be considered force. While accuracy allows you to affect all your abilities including the 5 main force abilities by allowing you to increase strength and power - better scaling dps. Now on the other side, if you take the 6% crit you could take less critical strike on your gear. Now it wouldn't be exactly 6% worth because you're only affecting 5 abilities out of 15 or so which mathematically speaking means you get 1/3 base points or 2% which is about 60 or so base points. There you made me do the math! So very roughly speaking, the 6% critical talent frees up about 60 points to spend elsewhere while the 3% accuracy talent frees up about 100 with all other things being equal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sath_Wishes Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 (edited) Haha, i'am sorry for letting you do the math that early Well, that does makes sense, also the thing with the Marauder Bleeds, good point. Overall, good guide and i like your dedication you put in and answering all the good, the bad and even the stupid Questions, good job bro. Oh, yeah you convinced me spending money again and taking Hit over Crit. Edited April 21, 2012 by LexiCazam IC/old post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flowqz Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 (edited) I think they real math balance would be spending those 3 points on crit (our lowest priority and poorest scaling stat) vs spending them on Steadfast allowing us to stack more strength, power and surge. in rakata gear i dont have any problems to hit those 100% accuracy without having this talent speced bacause every single item has accuracy in the enhancement slot... not sure if the tier 3 pvp sets dont have that stat on it, i will check that later. if that isnt the case u will be forced to get those tier 3 pvp items to drop the enhancement of it and put it nito the pve one. (IF accuracy really just decreases the defence chance, not reducing the enemys armor / accuracy above 100% only has a real effect on your offhand) according to your "-30% ae dmg taken" discussion... like i said before, i couldnt even stick gahrj on nightmare with the talent... ech jump did 7k and i guess the aoe avoid also works on bonetrasher and i wouldnt be surprised if it would also affect soas lightning balls, too. im not sure why, but the marauder guide says it is theorized that bosses have 10% defense so we should get accuracy till 110% Edited January 13, 2012 by flowqz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SarimRune Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 I dunno about PvP, but in PvE, I recently discovered how much of a difference having your Hilt properly upgraded is. I would recommend that any Primer explain how Hilts work in Orange Gear. In my case, I did not realize that the Damage rating of the Hilt would affect the base damage. Why? Because the damage on a LS readout is in Blue, that same color as other static information. This led me to believe that the damage rating of the weapon was a static number. But boy was I wrong. And once you keep your Hilts upgraded you can see a noticable difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBirkhofer Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Has anyone confirmed that burns are considered force? I know this question was raised a little while ago but unsure if it has been confirmed. yes, the +30% crit damage on force attacks in focus, clearly buffed cauterize burns. Presumably therefor, insights crit % will also effect the burns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Livingston Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 As I'm sure you guys would have alts, are there any good guides like this for the Guardian side? I looked on their forum, but they don't have any stickies for it, and no search option... Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BBoySolidusSnake Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 Hey, First time playing this game, Im looking for a good build to make mostly for PvE. What builds do you guys reccomend Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maefly Posted January 14, 2012 Author Share Posted January 14, 2012 Hey, First time playing this game, Im looking for a good build to make mostly for PvE. What builds do you guys reccomend Thanks Read through this thread, should answer most of your questions. There is a quick link to the talent build section that will give you an answer to this specific question. http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=47695#talentbuilds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supergrub Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 Hey I was helping my buddy find some good information to go by as he picked the Sentinel Class and I read over your guide. Wow , I must you did a fantastic job , very through , and great info on everything u need to know. Just reading through your guide made me wanna try this class out. Great stuff... Anyway If you ever happen to make another guide send me a pm , especially if it is a Gunslinger ( my first toon just started a week ago). Thanks again for creating a well informed thorough guide. There so many half assed write ups nowadays Cheers -Tharon- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dodga Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 Zen is good if you solo, but in group with blade rush you should replace zen with transcendence my 2c Dodga PS: very good post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pollepunk Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Just read the Watchman PvE section... Why do you use Blade Storm at all as Watchman? For 4 focus it seems a bit expensive for an ability that is nowhere enhanced in the skill tree. I use 2 x Slash instead for the same focus cost (it refunds 1 focus), takes a global cooldown more (gets me one step closer to the next Zealous or Leap) and does quite a bit more damage than Blade Storm. Also, I am taking the 15% extra crit chance on Slash from the Focus tree and use Slash as my primary focus dump (along with Cauterize and Merciless Slash), plus it gives a chance to reset Cauterize. The only times I used Blade Storm is when questing for the stun and the combo with Pommel Strike. And even then I'd mostly use Sweep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maefly Posted January 16, 2012 Author Share Posted January 16, 2012 Just read the Watchman PvE section... The only times I used Blade Storm is when questing for the stun and the combo with Pommel Strike. And even then I'd mostly use Sweep. This has been talked about several times, and you nailed the questing answer. With regard to end game, you will have a lot of extra focus. I find myself trying to spend focus as quickly as possible and while Blade Storm gains no benefit from the watchman tree, it still hits quite hard and allows you to do damage at range. Slash is a much better option if you are in melee range but if you have done any of the end game flash points or operations you know the Bioware people have some sick fetish with knocking melee out of melee range. So, while not an amazing ability for Watchman, don't drop it off your bar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SicSemperTrex Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 I was about to ask a question about Slash vs Bladestorm for watchman, but I see the above posts pretty much have it covered. Would appreciate some clarification on the following points: 1) for Watchman PvE, I just don't see the benefit of Blade Storm, as it is a) a force attack and b) unaffected by anything in the watchman tree. Barring knockbacks (which apparently happen a lot in Ops), and considering slash has a chance to reset your cauterize cooldown, I'm fairly confident that blade storm should not be in a sustained PvE rotation. (soloing notwithstanding.) 2) just wanted to make a quick correction- in your watchman PvE section, it says that Slash and bladestorm both can reset cauterize. Should that read Slash and Merciless Slash? Just making sure. By the way, super fantastic guide. It's really helped me out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maefly Posted January 17, 2012 Author Share Posted January 17, 2012 (edited) 1) for Watchman PvE, I just don't see the benefit of Blade Storm, as it is a) a force attack and b) unaffected by anything in the watchman tree. Barring knockbacks (which apparently happen a lot in Ops), and considering slash has a chance to reset your cauterize cooldown, I'm fairly confident that blade storm should not be in a sustained PvE rotation. (soloing notwithstanding.) Yes as indicated in at least 4 replies now, you should not be using Blade Storm in a rotation UNLESS you are out of melee range and trying to maintain damage. Sure you can saunter back to the boss and hit it with your Slash or Merc Slash but in those 2 or 3 seconds, you have no only lost DPS but your timing is now off on your rotation cooldowns. I'll update the Watchman PvE overview to be more explicit about this since there seems to be quite a bit of confusion. If you haven't done Hard Modes or Ops yet, you're in for a crazy ride. The amount of movement, knockbacks, and general out-of-melee-range is staggeringly stupid. It is so bad in fact that current 16 man ops tend to bring 1 Melee tank, 1 Sentinel, 1 Guardian dps and the rest range. Any more melee than that and the operation is wasting damage. 2) just wanted to make a quick correction- in your watchman PvE section, it says that Slash and bladestorm both can reset cauterize. Should that read Slash and Merciless Slash? Just making sure. Bladestorm does not reset cauterize, I read over the Watchman PvE build section and didn't find a the reference you are talking about. However, with in the 16,000 or so words that this beast of a post has grown to, it is entirely possible that I misspoke. I'll see if I can find this misstatement and kill it. EDIT: Found it and fixed. Thanks for the catch. Edited January 17, 2012 by Maefly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tobarstep Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Slash is a much better option if you are in melee range but if you have done any of the end game flash points or operations you know the Bioware people have some sick fetish with knocking melee out of melee range. Great, sounds like Bioware took hints from Trion's Rift and gave nothing but hate to melee. And melee is about all I ever play. Heck, in Rift even 75% of the trash mobs had knockbacks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crayne Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Great post! I would recommend to add a section at the bottom of your last post on page #1 that shows what was changed/added like a "changelog" or "post history". This would make it more comfortable to follow the guide whichout reading the full post to find any changes ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flowqz Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 (edited) Great, sounds like Bioware took hints from Trion's Rift and gave nothing but hate to melee. And melee is about all I ever play. Heck, in Rift even 75% of the trash mobs had knockbacks. melees always have a harder time at bosses this happens in every mmo, even in wow. there are 2 reasons why u should still bring melees: -melees deal higher dmg than ranged -the whole raid sometimes takes huge dmg, but melees have cds so they will take less in those burst ae scenarios. dont bring melees if this isnt the case! Edited January 17, 2012 by flowqz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maefly Posted January 17, 2012 Author Share Posted January 17, 2012 Great post! I would recommend to add a section at the bottom of your last post on page #1 that shows what was changed/added like a "changelog" or "post history". This would make it more comfortable to follow the guide whichout reading the full post to find any changes ;-) Yeah I saw this on a few of the other guides and have been meaning to add it. I'll do what I can to get it in the next big update Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maefly Posted January 17, 2012 Author Share Posted January 17, 2012 (edited) -melees deal higher dmg than ranged Unfortunately, given a no movement, tank and spank, it seems range do just as much, and sometimes more damage than all the melee classes. You throw in add transitions, knockbacks, immune phases where you have to dps something far away, or movement and the time on target for melee classes goes way down while range just turn slightly and continue to pew pew. -the whole raid sometimes takes huge dmg, but melees have cds so they will take less in those burst ae scenarios. After playing several other classes, the Sentinel does have the best survival cooldowns. Unfortunately, I think this was a reactive decision when they saw Sentinels just getting obliterated. Rather than addressing the underlying problem of not enough time on target or too high damage output from other classes, they just threw defensive cooldowns at us. Even then, you would have to have a melee class alive for almost twice as long to match the output of an equally played range class. Edited January 17, 2012 by Maefly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
naxomanw Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 I love you man...xD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maefly Posted January 17, 2012 Author Share Posted January 17, 2012 I love you man...xD I love you too...and I mean in THAT way. Glad I could help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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