Ngamok Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 It really is not a problem. Im stating that my main does not use biochem stims or medpacks during pvp and I **NEVER** view myself at a disadvantage because of it. It really is not that big of a deal, just another reason for some players to whine about after losing to someone in something. Good players will still be good, bad players will still be bad and whining will shift to something else. btw how is biochem such an advantage over other crew skills ie: armormech or synthweaving... Those players have fully augmented gear (bm/wh), yet I dont see people whining about how OP that is... Biochem is/was not the problem. You're right, it isn't. It's only a problem when you stack them with relics. In 1.3, they are nerfing BOTH of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matslarson Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 ...had nearly 3x the amount of damage that I had done. Bads will be bads. Yes they will be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcgregorya Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 (edited) the expertise had literally zero to do with TTK. if you are properly geared for PvP, your defensive PvP bonus fully negates your opponents offensive PvP bonus. Wasn't it just proven that before, your TTK went up as your expertise went up? If 1000k + 22% damage is equal to 18% damage reduction, then before when it was 12% and 12% you had a longer TTK didn't you? Edited June 11, 2012 by dcgregorya Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hethroin Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 1.2 adrenal shot was ridiculous for some classes, especially (but not only) pt pyros. The problem is that pt pyro will still be a good class withouth relics, as will marauders. What will be the fate of concealment ops after the adrenal nerf, i wonder? The dps of a pyro is more like the concealment op then you would lead us to believe. Both classes have burst that relies on them dumping their resources, followed by a short lul in damage while resources regen and skill cooldowns expire. The relic/adrenal nerf is going to hit pyro and concealment DPS about the same when comparing their opening burst on one target. On the second target the ops lose out more, as it is more likely to not be able to stealth after killing the first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smashbrother Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 (edited) The reduction in TTK was a direct result of the expertise change. Before 1.2, the defensive stat of expertise outweighed the offensive stat of expertise. After 1.2, the def and off stats were corrected so that they would cancel each other out if two people had the same expertise. Essentially, they balanced expertise mathematically in 1.2, and people started to take more damage since expertise's def stat no longer overpowered the off stat. I don't mind BW fixing adrenals/relics for pvp, though I would have preferred it if they simply nerfed the amount of burst they gave instead of removing it altogether. Edited June 11, 2012 by Smashbrother Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matslarson Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 Wasn't it just proven that before, your TTK went up as your expertise went up? If 1000k + 22% damage is equal to 18% damage reduction, then before when it was 12% and 12% you had a longer TTK didn't you? Yup, some people just don't understand math. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MimicUnleashed Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 The damage boost provided by expertise is directly and exactly countered by the dmg reduction given by expertise. (you seem to have forgotten about the defensive side of expertise ) The healing part is a bonus. On topic. Adrenals and & relics change will make killing players take a couple of seconds longer, but the change is just a band aid, they don't fix the difference in power between classes. Expertise defensive % is less than offensive %. Has been since 1.2. With that, the severe increase in expertise numbers, War Hero having an even more ludicrous amount of expertise, and a healing nerf TTK went from a good solid fight that was fun, to "LoLstundie" for anyone not in full BM. The removal of biochem items and trinket procs from WZs is just a way to not have to back out on a previous choice, however with tank nerfs and the adrenals altered I give it to 1.5 before they cut expertise by about 1/3rd or more at the risk of the system tilting too far towards "gear is all" versus "skill is required". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigfootNZ Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 Im looking forward to this change personally. I dont have Biochem (Cybertech for Life... even though its useless for me, hoping one day we get something), and the Biochem alt I have is sitting around the 180 mark for skill. I used to pop warzone exp adrenals and meds alot in the 10-49's but since the BM/WH grind I havent bothered to get any. I usually forget to use my Relics most warzones so I wont miss it, although I do use it regularly in PvE. I think I do pretty well in the 50's bracket despite this and im fairly or used to be fairly ignorant of Biochem, so for me, im gonna be really interested how this changes the overall make up of PvP on my server, there are a few players ive gone up against that literally make me rage. Im talking players who wipe 1/3rd to half my health off in 3-4 seconds (im in Full BM and a few WH pieces). One in particular is a Mara who still uses old Champ sabers which are far inferior dmg rating to current BM, I just cant kill him solo 95% of the time but he wipes the floor with me so quick it isnt funny even with every stop gap i have being used (Literally loose half my health in the opening 3 seconds fairly often, not to mention Force Camo followed by Reusable Med pac back to about just under half health). Ive always wonder just how they do the damage they do (usually double the next highest on the list most games), the Mara I mentioned above also plays a Sorc and they too are usually double the dmg of the next on the list. I can only assume from what ive learned of Biochem that it must be him jacked up on Biochem reusable Adrenals. I look forward to seeing how Uber such players are come 1.3 compared to those of us that dont use (for what ever reason) Adrenals/stims/medpacs in warzones. Might bring there 'hot skills' into line with the rest of us, decently skilled players. If they still are so uber come 1.3, then i tip my hat to em and apologize. Cant wait to hear the whines... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metalmac Posted June 16, 2012 Share Posted June 16, 2012 Expertise defensive % is less than offensive %. Has been since 1.2. With that, the severe increase in expertise numbers, War Hero having an even more ludicrous amount of expertise, and a healing nerf TTK went from a good solid fight that was fun, to "LoLstundie" for anyone not in full BM. The removal of biochem items and trinket procs from WZs is just a way to not have to back out on a previous choice, however with tank nerfs and the adrenals altered I give it to 1.5 before they cut expertise by about 1/3rd or more at the risk of the system tilting too far towards "gear is all" versus "skill is required". Gear has always been the edge. Gear is 80% of the advatage. Go naked and try to kill a WH geared player. Yea skill can kill bad players but put that bad player in WH gear and skill is going to have to be way up there. The nerf will stop Sent/Mara, Ops/Scoundrel, PT/Vangard and Shadow/Assasin from the OP DPS they have. My Sage is not considered OP by anyone since launch of SWTOR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Digtahk Posted June 16, 2012 Share Posted June 16, 2012 Im looking forward to this change personally. I dont have Biochem (Cybertech for Life... even though its useless for me, hoping one day we get something), Cybertech is ironically the only crew skill that gives you an otherwise unattainable advantage in pvp albeit a very small one. I use the exotech stims and WZ Healing potions and adrenals both of which are superior to the Biochem only ones. The Cybertech only reusable grenades are in fact better than the consumable grenades (marginally) . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matslarson Posted June 16, 2012 Share Posted June 16, 2012 (edited) Gear is 80% of the advatage. This "statistic" was fabricated on the spot by the poster and has absolutely zero basis in reality, or measurable facts. The difference in stats between BM and WH or even Recruit and War Hero is nowhere near an 80% increase. My Sage is not considered OP by anyone since launch of SWTOR. If you haven't seen a "Sage/Sorc DPS is OP" thread than you can't have been on the forums for more than a few seconds. Edited June 16, 2012 by matslarson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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