Jedi's lost what makes them Humans ?

[Zoliaxen]

ok this is a litle complicated

 

but the Jedi code and the Jedi traning is just Stupid

No Love ? no passion ? basicaly No Feelings ?

most of the Jedi's gett recruited when they are kids and grow up under jedi tranings.

so that means 70% of them are Virgins ? this sounded stupid but sersiously now lol.

 

i mean these personal feelings and passions make the Humans human

Right now in my eyes Jedi's are a Mindles Cult that protects the innocents NOT bicous they want it but bicous They think thats Their Duty and How many times the Cuncil Let innocents Die bicous they refused to send jedis to places ( remember something like this from the Movies or the revan story ? i dont know )

 

Anyone can Enlighten me if i know something wrong ? Playing a jedi guardian and i constantly thinking about this well it ruins the immersion totaly lol.

[Maaruin]

Think about Obi-Wan from the movies. He had normal emotions.

 

If you look at the Jedi code, it is: "There is no emotion, there is peace."

 

Almost no Jedi seems to interpret the "no emotion" literally as "not having emotions at all".

 

Instead I would interpret it as "uncontrollable emotion" and "emotional chaos" as the opposite to "peace of mind".

 

Edit: There are humans who are very calm and controlled concerning their emotion. It doesn't change the fact that they are humans.

Edited June 7, 2012 by Maaruin

[Hitomo_x]

Think about Buddism. Monks. Priests. Meditation.

 

What you call 'things that make us human' are actually the things that make us humans fail.

Its all the reasons for war, hate, violence and humilations.

 

Just dont stop to think on the surface if you want to evaluate the meaning of such things.

[Ratatooey]

So much of the Jedi is based on on Eastern tradition. Chi is so like The Force it's hard to tell a difference. The term Jedi comes from jidai in Japanese. The Samurai genre is called jidaigecki - Jedis are analogous to Samurai in many ways. Edited June 7, 2012 by Ratatooey
sp

[JediElf]

Right now in my eyes Jedi's are a Mindles Cult that protects the innocents NOT bicous they want it but bicous They think thats Their Duty and How many times the Cuncil Let innocents Die bicous they refused to send jedis to places ( remember something like this from the Movies or the revan story ? i dont know )

 

Anyone can Enlighten me if i know something wrong ? Playing a jedi guardian and i constantly thinking about this well it ruins the immersion totaly lol.

 

Think of it in shades of grey. The Jedi (TOR Era) may see themselves as a force of good, but they train their knights and consulars to be very ill prepared for the reality of life in the galaxy. They have zero coping skills, and the lack of emotion, and attachment, training makes them completely unprepared to deal with any of those feelings when they appear.

 

Do the Jedi save people? Sure they do. However they can't always save themselves, especially of simply falling in love, leads to the dark side.

 

However, in a way that's what I like about the Jedi in this game, they are 'good' but deeply, deeply, flawed, and it makes for some interesting parallels to the Sith.

Edited June 7, 2012 by JediElf

[Captain_Zone]

I see the Jedi Code and how the Jedi Council interprets it.

 

Then I look at Kira and say "Bone that for a bag of hammers!", toss the Jedi Code and Council's garbage out the airlock, grab Kira and drag her to the Captain's Quarters.

[ScarletBlaze]

This explanation of code is what I use for the code. No where does it say a jedi doesn't feel emotion because they do. Do they get angry yes? Do they let their anger overrule their judgment from right and wrong? Usually no. Some do, some don't.

 

Can a Jedi love. Of course they can and some do and have no trouble with it. The problem is when jealousy comes into play. If you can't trust the person you love than it becomes a problem. To love someone is putting that person before yourself and some people (not just jedi) have problems doing that. It is all about them not someone else.

 

 

 

The Jedi Code, stated, removes the human element and shows what is left. Yet it does not say that is how one should act. It does not say Act with No Emotion. Instead it shows us the error in heedlessly following our human nature. Emotion clouds peace, ignorance overshadows knowledge, passion distorts serenity, chaos destroys harmony, death hides the Force. Now lets bring this all together and look at each line of the Jedi Code and how it exactly guides a Jedi in daily life.

 

There is no emotion; there is peace. A Jedi acts and reacts in a calm manner, not allowing the emotions they are feeling to cloud their judgment, reasoning, and objective.

 

 

There is no ignorance; there is knowledge. A Jedi faces each new challenge with the opportunity to gain more knowledge. They do not fear the unknown, but take the chance to learn about the unknown.

 

 

There is no passion; there is serenity. A Jedi does not allow their passions in life to affect their judgment, reason, or objectives. A Jedi acts and reacts keeping a serene mind, unaffected by their personal desire.

 

 

There is no chaos; there is harmony. A Jedi seeks moderation and balance with all things. Even though life can be very chaotic a Jedi finds harmony with that chaos. Balance in the world around them, balance within themselves, the middle-ground in each situation, and even on a larger scale harmony between technology and nature.

 

 

And lastly there is no death; there is the Force. A Jedi understands that the Force is created and associated with life. Yet death is also a natural part of life. For a Jedi there is no fear of death. For death is merely one more unknown, another chance for the Jedi to gain knowledge about the Force itself.

[JediElf]

Ahhh but ScarletBlaze, that's you're own interpretation of the code (and a very balanced, and good one at that), and that interpolation may be true of later Jedi, or Skywalkers Jedi.

 

However it's fairly apparent, ( If I am wrong please correct me), that in this era Jedi are taught that falling in love, and attachment do lead to the dark side, pretty much all romances, give dark side points. Even Grand Master Satele Shan give up her own son, because becoming attached to him, and caring for him, was against the Jedi code at that time.

 

Also all if not most of the Jedi encountered as a Sith (so far for me) appear to be either completely devoid of emotion, or if they have any emotion they are utterly insane with it....it's interesting.

 

Like I said befoe, they make for a really interesting parallel, to the Sith in this game.

 

Very clever writing, I must say. ^_^

Edited June 8, 2012 by JediElf

[ScarletBlaze]

Ahhh but ScarletBlaze, that's you're own interpretation of the code (and a very balanced, and good one at that), and that interpolation may be true of later Jedi, or Skywalkers Jedi.

 

However it's fairly apparent, ( If I am wrong please correct me), that in this era Jedi are taught that falling in love, and attachment do lead to the dark side, pretty much all romances, give dark side points. Even Grand Master Satele Shan give up her own son, because becoming attached to him, and caring for him, was against the Jedi code at that time.

 

Also all if not most of the Jedi encountered as a Sith (so far for me) appear to be either completely devoid of emotion, or if they have any emotion they are utterly insane with it....it's interesting.

 

Like I said befoe, they make for a really interesting parallel, to the Sith in this game.

 

Very clever writing, I must say. ^_^

 

No not all jedi romances get dark side points. A friend of mine has a shadow and she has romanced Iresso and never once has she gotten dark side points. The only dark points she has ever gotten was on tython on that one particular quest . From what I've seen it depends it seems on the romance. If you immediately go to fade to black than I am seeing you get darkside points but if it takes time and you take the time to get there you don't seem to get the dark side points at least that what it seems to be.

 

And in this time period it is not forbidden just restictive. You have to be able to prove that you are capable of handling a relationship. There were exceptions (though how rare they were is another item)

 

 

Up to the Great Sith War, some Jedi did practice marriage and were known to have families of their own. There were even cases of families consisting entirely of Jedi, such as that of Andur Sunrider. The children of Jedi families were often gifted in the Force. Even later in the Order, such families existed—though the continuation of the line was through those family members who did not become Jedi. Famous Jedi families of the late Republic included the Koon family and the Diath family.

 

However, it appears that some Jedi might have been granted the right to marry, not as a special case, but as a norm. Several Corellian Jedi (Keiran Halcyon during the Old Republic)were allowed to marry and raise children without repercussion. Whether this was due to an agreement between the Jedi and the planetary government—Corellia is known for its family-centric culture—or purely personal choices made against the Jedi Code is not known, except in the case of Nejaa Halcyon, who married his wife secretly without the approval of the Council. Corellian Jedi often had many other noticeable differences from the traditional Jedi ways, such as in clothing and a reluctance to take on missions outside of their home system.

 

 

There were also other Jedi that had relationship that were not kicked out of the order (like a lot of people want to say)

 

Quinlan Vos and Khaleen Hentz, Nejaa Halcyon and Scerra Halcyon, and Etain Tur-Mukan and Clone commando Darman Skirata; or within the Jedi Order itself—such as the relationships of Kit Fisto and Aayla Secura, Qui-Gon Jinn and Tahl, Obi-Wan Kenobi and Siri Tachi, and Tholme and T'ra Saa. Some Further, Revan shared a romantic affection with Bastila Shan, who was redeemed by him after her fall.

 

So in essence it looks like there were realtionships just not a norm. I think the problem where it could lead to the dark side would be in the fact in hiding it. When you hide something, whether a romance or something else, you spend too much time trying to keep it hidden and therefore you open yourself up to the darkside. Whereas if you are honest about it there is nothing to hide and therefore you don't give the darkside a chance.

Edited June 8, 2012 by ScarletBlaze

[Maaruin]

Ahhh but ScarletBlaze, that's you're own interpretation of the code (and a very balanced, and good one at that), and that interpolation may be true of later Jedi, or Skywalkers Jedi.

 

However it's fairly apparent, ( If I am wrong please correct me), that in this era Jedi are taught that falling in love, and attachment do lead to the dark side, pretty much all romances, give dark side points. Even Grand Master Satele Shan give up her own son, because becoming attached to him, and caring for him, was against the Jedi code at that time.

 

Also all if not most of the Jedi encountered as a Sith (so far for me) appear to be either completely devoid of emotion, or if they have any emotion they are utterly insane with it....it's interesting.

 

Like I said befoe, they make for a really interesting parallel, to the Sith in this game.

 

Very clever writing, I must say. ^_^

 

If you talk with Kira about marriage in game, she says (among other things):

 

-the council can allow Jedi to "attach"

-but they will supervise them to "stay detached"

 

Sound's like a contradiction... I think it means that a moderate attachment, also falling in love is allowed, but it mustn't be too strong.

 

Consular romances don't give DS points, which I can't understand in case of Nadia. But for Lt. Iresso it seems okay, there is some part where the female JC can say: "If the Jedi is trustworthy and shows good judgement, the Jedi council tends to be lenient."

 

Also you see a Jedi Master in game who is clearly attached to his daugter. He says he doesn't bother that he never bothered that much with the rules.

 

So if you are a good Jedi, attachments seem to be tolerated, even if they aren't allowed in theory.

[JediElf]

Thank you very much for the replies! This has been really enlightening, and educational.

 

This is really helped me in forming my Jedis character, and helped me with playing the class.

 

[smartalectwo]

The Jedi work towards harmony. They work to becoming the ultimate in selflessness. They strive for connection without attachment. Every Jedi tries to be in tune with the world around them, and feelings are part of that. But as long as a Jedi Gets Job Done and doesn't let feelings cause loss of harmony inside themselves or between others, it's all good.

 

The Sith work towards discord. They work to become the ultimate individuals. They strive for attachment without connection. Every Sith tries to be 100% self-complete and self-contained. Forming relationships with others - friendships, alliances, romances - is fine, as long as a Sith is prepared to betray everyone they're attached to in order to further their own goals.

 

Between the two, the Sith seem more inhuman to me.

[CaptainTessier]

Very Interesting discussion.

 

I think Jedi Leadership discourages romantic entanglements for Force Sensitive beings because of the danger intense emotions pose for Force Users. It is a self imposed discipline intended to safegaurd the Jedi and those around him from the possible danger that could result from an emotional outburst.

 

In Star Wars we see the followers of the Dark Side often trying to provoke emotional responses from the Jedi.

Han was tortured in Empire Strikes Back specifically to upset Luke and draw him out into a confrontation with Vader.

 

Vader tempted Luke in return of the Jedi with taunts regarding his sister. In Fact the Emperor thought Vader had succeeded but Luke had his epiphany looking at his fathers damaged cyborg body and his own robot hand and turned back from that destiny.

 

Interestingly Luke had no defense against the Emperor save the remains of his relationship with his Father.

 

The True course is Balance but good Jedi will disagree on where that line runs.

[ScarletBlaze]

Thank you very much for the replies! This has been really enlightening, and educational.

 

This is really helped me in forming my Jedis character, and helped me with playing the class.

 

 

You are Welcome even though half the time I've been told my answers are wrong lol

[Marked_Man]

I think, based on this discussion, it is safe to say that Jedi lost that loving feeling. You know that feeling. Whoa! You know that feeling. They lost that loving feeling. Now, it's gone. Gone. Gone. Edited June 9, 2012 by Marked_Man
Typo

[ScarletBlaze]

I think, based on this discussion, it is safe to say that Jedi lost that loving feeling. You know that feeling. Whoa! You know that feeling. They lost that loving feeling. Now, it's gone. Gone. Gone.

 

Lets be a little more correct: Some Jedi not all. I know for a fact one particular jedi still loves her husband.

Edited June 9, 2012 by ScarletBlaze

[Ellvaan]

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[Hitomo_x]

I think, based on this discussion, it is safe to say that Jedi lost that loving feeling. You know that feeling. Whoa! You know that feeling. They lost that loving feeling. Now, it's gone. Gone. Gone.

 

Devoting your life to the ancient philosophys tells you, that the 'love' Jedi choose to lose, is not the true love you will feel when becoming one with all of the universe..

 

Like a monk, this is the ultimate goal for a jedi. And I can tell you, when reached, it does not feel like losing or letting anything behind at all. Its like getting to know the real thing for the first time. Sith will never be able to reach this state of mind and conection. And if they do they stop being a stih.

[Consensus]

ok this is a litle complicated

 

but the Jedi code and the Jedi traning is just Stupid

No Love ? no passion ? basicaly No Feelings ?

most of the Jedi's gett recruited when they are kids and grow up under jedi tranings.

so that means 70% of them are Virgins ? this sounded stupid but sersiously now lol.

 

i mean these personal feelings and passions make the Humans human

Right now in my eyes Jedi's are a Mindles Cult that protects the innocents NOT bicous they want it but bicous They think thats Their Duty and How many times the Cuncil Let innocents Die bicous they refused to send jedis to places ( remember something like this from the Movies or the revan story ? i dont know )

 

Anyone can Enlighten me if i know something wrong ? Playing a jedi guardian and i constantly thinking about this well it ruins the immersion totaly lol.

 

Oh my, i'm sorry but your opinion is archaic in nature to me. The jedi are trained in utmost discipline over their bodies, your desire to have sex is a reproductive urge of your genitals. The jedi overcome the body, its urges may not decide their actions, they control the body, not the other way around.

 

And emotions such as hate and passion and love are nothing but chemicals in your head that control what you do, again the jedi are disciplined to be the ones in control over their bodies, not the other way around.

 

Your entire life you have been a slave. Every choice you have made was made under the shackles your very own brain keeps you in. Everything down to what breakfast cereal you like is decided by your body giving you "feel good" reactions when you taste it, and when you do something the body doesn't like, such as not having smoked since a month ago makes your body punish you with "feel bad" reactions. Your chemistry ultimately decide your choces and actions.

 

To the jedi, the ones who are so dependent on the brain's reactions that they do everything they can to get a good reaction (have sex, do drugs, smoke, drink,etc) or go on rampaging tantrums from their hate and greed are what makes THEM mindless, and I agree. Someone who is not under the impression of the body's desires and greed is someone who truly controls themselves, someone who will not go on killing sprees like animals when they are mad like the sith do.

Edited June 25, 2012 by Consensus

[DaWaffle]

No, they're just able to put it to the side when necessary.

[Aurbere]

I see the Jedi Code and how the Jedi Council interprets it.

 

Then I look at Kira and say "Bone that for a bag of hammers!", toss the Jedi Code and Council's garbage out the airlock, grab Kira and drag her to the Captain's Quarters.

 

Sounds like a good idea to me.

[Ellvaan]

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[Helig]

ok this is a litle complicated

 

but the Jedi code and the Jedi traning is just Stupid

No Love ? no passion ? basicaly No Feelings ?

most of the Jedi's gett recruited when they are kids and grow up under jedi tranings.

so that means 70% of them are Virgins ? this sounded stupid but sersiously now lol.

 

i mean these personal feelings and passions make the Humans human

Right now in my eyes Jedi's are a Mindles Cult that protects the innocents NOT bicous they want it but bicous They think thats Their Duty and How many times the Cuncil Let innocents Die bicous they refused to send jedis to places ( remember something like this from the Movies or the revan story ? i dont know )

 

Anyone can Enlighten me if i know something wrong ? Playing a jedi guardian and i constantly thinking about this well it ruins the immersion totaly lol.

 

They don't lose any more than Sith do. The "natural" evolution of a Sith practically involves burning out every passion other than hate. Sidious was the pinnacle of this. Bane showed clear signs of this.

 

Things like Mandalorian Wars had no "right" or "wrong" choice. Jedi tried to choose "the lesser evil". Did it work out? Perhaps not. But we don't know what would happen if they acted differently.

 

Also, that's why I prefer the Old Jedi Code to the new one.

 

Emotion, yet peace.

Ignorance, yet knowledge.

Passion, yet serenity.

Chaos, yet harmony.

Death, yet the Force.

 

The Old Code does not deny anything. It empathises harmony and coexistence of the proverbial Ying and Yang in the Galaxy.

 

Jedi are against attachment. Sex is not forbidden, but not encouraged, because it's basically self-indulgence, and it may lead to attachment.

 

P.S. There's nothing wrong with "being a virgin". That's coming from a young adult who got what he wanted fairly early. In fact, I respect people who don't literally screw around more than the loose individuals.

Edited July 1, 2012 by Helig

[Captain_Zone]

From what I've seen, a good number of us prefer the Original Code to the Revised Code, myself included. Unfortunately, that was one of George's Direct Retcons. It wasn't restrictive enough to justify the Jedi Council restricting/banning marriage and relationships in the Prequels. It didn't "fit" with George's view, and tbh it would have made Anakin's fall to the Dark Side less believable. With his marriage to Padme being a secret, Anakin lost his Jedi support system, and had to rely on Palpatine. I believe it could have been avoided if the Original Code was still in place and the Jedi Council openly allowed relationships within the Order. Just my view.

[Morlaak]

I think Yoda lost what made him human a LOOONG time ago.

 

 

Sorry, I had to. Proceed with your philosophical debate.