Commando 1.3 Buffs: What do you think?

[Vagran]

It might look bad on paper, but so far the testing I've done I rarely had problems with ammo. If I got careless I just hit recharge cells and my ammo was good again.

 

But I haven't tested this in a raid or a flashpoint yet, so take that with a grain of salt. My main experience is shooting hog wild on a training dummy for 4 or 5 minutes, and I only needed to use recharge cells twice.

[Cormacus]

It might look bad on paper, but so far the testing I've done I rarely had problems with ammo. If I got careless I just hit recharge cells and my ammo was good again.

 

But I haven't tested this in a raid or a flashpoint yet, so take that with a grain of salt. My main experience is shooting hog wild on a training dummy for 4 or 5 minutes, and I only needed to use recharge cells twice.

 

You miss the point. Most of us Commandos do not have a problem with Ammo except Medics (who won't benefit from the change). The issue most of us are facing have been totally ignored and instead they focused on ammo:

 

The main issues I have are:

 

1. Not able to survive.

Some way of putting distance between us and DPS melee which most people now play. I can't get away from a good Marauder/Sentine. After you blown your concussion charge there isn't anything you can do as Gunnery Commando, you'll be snared and limping along trying to get away from them. If you're not able to put distance between you and them you're dead.

 

2. No interrupts

Every other class have a interrupt except commando's, this affects us being able to take down healers but also against PvE bosses. Why are we the only class without one?

 

3. Mobile vs Turret

We're supposed to do a lot more damage because we're stationary and forced to stand in one spot to do our damage and build up stacks (for a long time). Yet mobile dps classes do more or similar damage than us without having to stand still. Why? Mobility is supposed to make up for less DPS.

 

4. Defensive Cooldowns

The only defensive ability we have is on a 2min timer and only reduce 25% damage.. Most other classes have several defensive abilities on much shorter cooldown.

 

5. Grav Spam

They still haven't made us rely less on Grav, still have to spam the same ability over and over again to build up either stacks or get proc on Curtain of Fire. This also means we can be shut down very easily.

 

However I think our damage is about right, we just need to some adjustments and reworked abilities. That probably won't ever happen though.

[Vagran]

I did miss that he was talking about Combat medics, he didn't mention any spec's by name. As for your other points I agree, but I don't see any of that being changed anytime soon. It seems to me that for PvE gunnery troopers are great, but for PvP you'll only do well if no one notices that your shooting at them.

[Boufsa]

I am in a "wait and see" mode. I think our peak dps might decrease a little since we will regen a cell once every 6 sec while we currently can do it more often, but in the other hand we get 30% more armor penetration on HIB and FA, which sums up to 60%, quite interesting. In pve our dps will be less random, and in pvp we will indeed gain a little more mobility.

 

I am quite concerned about the probable 3% accuracy loss in the talent tree, that would make me have to rework my amor balance.

 

All in all the post 1.3 gunnery commandos should perform a little better in both pve and pvp. But they won't be FOTM like marauders currently are and will apparently stay.

Edited June 8, 2012 by Boufsa

[Stovokor]

Mobility ...

I still think mobility is the number one issue facing both DPS spec. If you kite you lose much of your DPS against top players. Kiting & maintaining separation means you will not be reaching the DPS potential of the class as intended by the procs and talent synergy. Gunnery is basically turreted and even Assault does not have instants to trigger high damage like Vanguard DPS.

 

As a support class 1.3 Commando look to be a whole lot stronger especially Assault but its looks to be seen if they can carry their weight in ranked across 4 warzones types.

 

 

Medic

Heavy Trooper now increases healing received by 1% per point (down from 3%).

 

I utilize this skill in current build. Its marginal 2% nerf and not rly insignificant cause there are other decent medic talents. 1.2 Combat Medic's with proper itemization and practice in premade vs premade should have little issue. Clocked over 500 games in combat medic 1.2 alone and eventually adapted to be significant factor in winning warzones and being hard to kill. 2 other CM in another guild also doing very well compared to the commando masses.

 

Main problem with most CM is there are many nuances in warzones that average players just don't get as they focus on pointless stat padding. My real concern overall is that 1.3 TTK changes ( relics and adrenals ) ... ALL healers generally will be extremely hard to kill in reasonable amount of time. Dynamic nature of many wz might change.

Edited June 8, 2012 by Stovokor

[Freeborne]

You miss the point. Most of us Commandos do not have a problem with Ammo except Medics (who won't benefit from the change). The issue most of us are facing have been totally ignored and instead they focused on ammo:

 

The main issues I have are:

 

1. Not able to survive.

Some way of putting distance between us and DPS melee which most people now play. I can't get away from a good Marauder/Sentine. After you blown your concussion charge there isn't anything you can do as Gunnery Commando, you'll be snared and limping along trying to get away from them. If you're not able to put distance between you and them you're dead.

 

 

You're forgetting: Stockstrike (has knockback) and Cryo Grenade.

 

2. No interrupts

Every other class have a interrupt except commando's, this affects us being able to take down healers but also against PvE bosses. Why are we the only class without one?

 

I agree it would be nice to have an interupt, but this isn't much of a PvE issue. There's a grand total of 1 Operations boss, and 2 flashpoint bosses (one of which was recently nerfed) where an extra interupt is "needed".

 

3. Mobile vs Turret

We're supposed to do a lot more damage because we're stationary and forced to stand in one spot to do our damage and build up stacks (for a long time). Yet mobile dps classes do more or similar damage than us without having to stand still. Why? Mobility is supposed to make up for less DPS.

 

As this is PvP, the biggest variable probably isn't you standing still or not, but simply the amount of Expertise you have vs. the amount your opponent has.

 

4. Defensive Cooldowns

The only defensive ability we have is on a 2min timer and only reduce 25% damage.. Most other classes have several defensive abilities on much shorter cooldown.

 

And Charged Barrier, And Concussive Force, and Stock Strike. And Cryo Grenade. And when it comes to down to it, Full Auto with Cover Fire specc'ed.

 

5. Grav Spam

They still haven't made us rely less on Grav, still have to spam the same ability over and over again to build up either stacks or get proc on Curtain of Fire. This also means we can be shut down very easily.

 

This doesn't really bother me. If a person is obsessing about interrupting my attack it gets pretty easy to distract them so teammates play more effectively.

[Freeborne]

Apparently SWTOR decided to doublepost me. Edited June 8, 2012 by Freeborne

[FalcoLombardi]

yay, no i'll have more ammo which means i can shoot out more abilities to get interupted, thanks for breif immune-to-interupt ability bioware, stuck it out to find out i should have just quit months ago

 

This is what Commandos need. Like Gunslingers they need a buff in the Assault tree or something that makes them Immune to interrupt for 15-20 seconds or something like that. This is mainly for PvP, and I've never played this spec, but on my Juggernaut in PvE, it's Leap (interupt), interupt, hit them hard a few times, choke (interupt), hit them a good bit, backhand or push (interupt), kill. Thus, making them useless

 

If they can't have in interrupt at least give them something to prevent being interrupted

[Luceon]

Per Freeborne's post:

 

1. Stock strike is not nearly worth mentioning. So yay, you push someone away that takes not nearly another second and a half to get next to you again, huge benefit. Yes he should have mentioned cryo grenade but even then, using either concussive charge and/or cryo grenade does not change the fact that melee have a stupidly short CD to jump right back to you.

 

2. Also in agreement, there are a few solo fights through the story line that would proof most helpful to have an interrupt as well but we can make it through fine.

 

3. Although it is a big variable to have more expertise than your opponent, it does not mean stationary isn't as important. Running around using hammer shot and the occasional un-procced HiB will not nearly compensate for a full rotation, regardless of expertise.

 

4. Charged barrier has been nerfed, awesome. All classes (who have an armor debuff) that is not commando/merc reduce armor at twice the amount our grav vortex's do (also which removes twice the amount as charged barrier would grant). It is almost not even worth mentioning as well due to these simple facts. Again, concussive charge and cryo grenade all melee class have a ridiculous strength over our push backs to return to us. Same goes for stock strike as I said for number 1. Last for this number point, you are clearly going by the idea as the best defense is the best offense. Well there are a lot of people who do not abide by that (and for the discussion of commando, I am one of them) as we are usually dead faster than we can put out the damage needed due to lack of defensive abilities.

 

5. I also agree with this point.

 

Note: These points are based solely for the design of the class and not about skill and experience with the class. That is a whole other beast to tend with.

[DarkSideTOR]

I agree with the previous posters, regarding PVP. We need more defensive tools. 25% damage reduction over 12 seconds is not nearly enough. We wear heavy armor and yet every class gets abilities that bypass armor or their damage is elemental/internal which pretty much makes heavy armor worthless.

 

We need a defensive ability that will actually extend our life in group fights. Every single AC out there has some good defensive abilities that helps them stay alive in group PVP. We have.. Reactive Shield. That's it, end of story. We have no "oh s**t" button to get out of jams. We can knock back foes to buy 1-2 seconds of life before we're torn to shreds, and that's assuming you're being attacked by melees.

 

If you're not gonna give us any new abilities then increase the damage reduction on Reactive Shield, give it an immunity to snares/roots component for the duration.

[DarkSideTOR]

@Freeborne

 

 

And Charged Barrier, And Concussive Force, and Stock Strike. And Cryo Grenade. And when it comes to down to it, Full Auto with Cover Fire specc'ed.

 

Let's see Charged Barrier, you gotta build up enough stacks to reach the WHOPPING 5% dmg reduction. In a fight you will almost never, ever get to fire 5 Grav Rounds. You are too vulnerable to interrupts.

 

Concussive Force would work a hell of a lot better if we used it with our non-existant root. Full Auto's 2s snare is not enough, you have to stand still while channeling it so even snared they are still closing the gap. That gap will get closed even quicker if they're JKs.

 

Stock Strike, are you seriously calling this a defensive ability? if you spec it you can knock someone back a few feet, give them a good chunk of resolve. SS would be useful for knocking someone off a catwalk on Huttball or for flinging them into a trap, if they happen to be standing right next to it. What good is it going to do you on a flat surface aside from ensuring that you give your opponent a full resolve bar?

 

Lastly, you are crazy if you are PVPing as Gunnery. Good luck getting on a ranked team as Gunnery, you will probably be the first target they take down when they realize what spec you are.

Edited June 11, 2012 by DarkSideTOR

[Freeborne]

nterrupts.

 

Concussive Force would work a hell of a lot better if we used it with our non-existant root. Full Auto's 2s snare is not enough, you have to stand still while channeling it so even snared they are still closing the gap. That gap will get closed even quicker if they're JKs.

 

 

No, it won't. That's the whole point of stock strike. The knock back distance is short enough that it still puts the player within their minmum distance where they can't force leap at you. User Stockstrike plus Full Auto on a Jedi Knight. It's a great way to pin them down.

[Essence_of_Light]

No, it won't. That's the whole point of stock strike. The knock back distance is short enough that it still puts the player within their minmum distance where they can't force leap at you. User Stockstrike plus Full Auto on a Jedi Knight. It's a great way to pin them down.

 

"It's a great way to pin them down" What if they stun you and just come back and keep attacking you or what if they back away and then force leap back? Stockstrike is a joke.

[Freeborne]

"It's a great way to pin them down" What if they stun you and just come back

and keep attacking you

 

What do you do when any class stuns you?

 

or what if they back away and then force leap back?

 

If you stock strike someone, and they choose to backup and force leap...sounds like someone just gave you a great opportunity to use Concussion Charge now that they've burned their leap cool down...

[ArchangelLBC]

Backing off of PVP for a moment (which I agree, this update seems to address not at all. Our issues in that arena are survivability and utility. Specifically the lack thereof).

 

 

Testing on the PTS has assuaged my doubts about the cell charger change in that it appears that for well geared commandos the update is a complete wash. I could wish that they had just fixed its not proccing on Full Auto, but as long as the net effect isn't a nerf, then the facts seem to be that it's the same ammo over time, just less RNG dependent which will smooth our DPS out overall and make us more reliable, and oh my God I sound like the dev now.

 

It will also make the 2-piece set bonus a little easier to give up if and when they implement new set bonuses since while I LOVE the damage that 15% crit chance yields (my grav rounds are almost back up to my pre-1.2 levels of damage when they crit at least), it was the ammo regen that really mattered. Have you ever tried going without that set bonus since you got it? I joke tanked Soa in dancer's gear (had someone leave so we decided to say screw it and give it a try for laughs) and the one thing I noticed was how much quicker I was running out of ammo.

 

The changed to charged barrel is much appreciated. For those who were using HiB on cooldown, congrats you will now do more damage. I'm sorry but who ISN'T pumping out at least 3 grav rounds every 15 seconds? Grav Round > Full Auto > Demo Round > Grav Round > Full Auto takes up 11.5 seconds assuming you get CoF procs on both those grav rounds (which is why I put Demo in the middle. Just imagine it's the middle of your rotation or something. Grav > FA > Grav > FA is impossible because of the internal 6 sec cooldown on CoF). Lets assume you now hammer shot. That still leaves you 2 GCDs. What are you gonna do if you AREN'T firing off another grav round to try and proc CoF again and that means you're now at 5 charged barrel stacks. No. You will always have 5 stacks now. For those who only ever used it with 5 stacks, and I was occasionally one of those, especially for burst phases where every bit of actual damage counts, now we get those 5 stacks without ever missing the cooldown. This is a big winner in every since of the word, especially with the extra 30% armor penetration. This might actually cause HiB to surpass Demo as our highest damage ability, (ok technically FA is triggered but I mean HiB will put out a bigger single number which is always fun).

 

Overall, I call the whole thing a decent, if not super large bump up. Further testing is needed but the overall net increase to HiB might be enough to make up for the damage we lost in the Demo Round nerf.

[GrantyJPS]

What do you do when any class stuns you?

 

 

 

If you stock strike someone, and they choose to backup and force leap...sounds like someone just gave you a great opportunity to use Concussion Charge now that they've burned their leap cool down...

 

Force leap back? They just walk back, you have an animation to finish and a 12 sec snare on you. A 2 sec 50% snare on a 3 sec channel? At best you can cancel it (losing a 15 sec CD ability and likely a CoF proc) and walk slowly away for 12 secs as they slowly walk towards you for 2, then are back to full speed. Cryo aswell? That's 2 KBs and a stun, hello full resolve, time to trinket. Now the option of someone coming over to help you out with a stun is pretty much out of the window too. Incidentally, when you concussion charge with leap on CD, they will force camo and run back faster than you can run away.You are a dead man in every scenario you could come up with against a semi-competent mara, let alone a good one.

Edited June 13, 2012 by GrantyJPS

[azhrione]

Force leap back? They just walk back, you have an animation to finish and a 12 sec snare on you. A 2 sec 50% snare on a 3 sec channel? At best you can cancel it (losing a 15 sec CD ability and likely a CoF proc) and walk slowly away for 12 secs as they slowly walk towards you for 2, then are back to full speed. Cryo aswell? That's 2 KBs and a stun, hello full resolve, time to trinket. Now the option of someone coming over to help you out with a stun is pretty much out of the window too. Incidentally, when you concussion charge with leap on CD, they will force camo and run back faster than you can run away.You are a dead man in every scenario you could come up with against a semi-competent mara, let alone a good one.

 

How about my Vanguard buddy harpoons the Marauder while he is hobbling back, while I stack a pair of Grav Rounds, then finish him with a Demo Round.

 

I fail to see the problem here, in a 1v1 situation a Marauder SHOULD win almost every time. Luckily this isn't a 1v1 game.

 

Cover Fire should proc a 2 second root, which would fix a lot of issues. Combine that with interrupt protection and Gunnery would be fine. Still needs work, but no overhaul.

[Boufsa]

...

 

Thanks for the feedback! I am not among those who currently care about the stacks of charged barrel, I use HIB whenever it is up and I have about 3 ammo cell to regen because it is free (big) damage.

 

I did my weekly hitting dummy training yesterday. Here is my current power usage (whole duration: 400s, averal damage per second: 1435):

 

grav round => 77 uses (45.1% total damage)

Full Auto => 38 uses (38.5% total damage)

HIB => 25 uses (11.3% total damage)

Hammer Shot => 18 uses (3.6% total damage)

Demo round => 2 uses (1.5% total damage)

 

I use demo round whenever Full Auto is not up and I can use it without disturbing ammo regeneration. Wasn't very lucky on the procs yesterday, so I ended almost not using it. FA average damage for 3 hits is around 6k while demo round 4.36k. But FA takes 2.5s to cast while demo round which is instant takes 1.5s GCD. So 4360*2.5/1.5=7266 meaning Demo round does much more damage over time than full auto, but since you also care about ammo regeneration and need 3 stacked vortexes that's not so easy. Anyway post 1.3 hopefully the FA up will make it for the current 7266-6000=1266 damage loss.

[Gyronamics]

This is a big winner in every since of the word, especially with the extra 30% armor penetration. This might actually cause HiB to surpass Demo as our highest damage ability, (ok technically FA is triggered but I mean HiB will put out a bigger single number which is always fun).

 

Well that depends...

 

If I use my stats as an example. I've added talented damage boosts already.

 

77% crit multiplier

42% tech crit (Demo Round)

35% ranged crit (High Impact Bolt)

Set bonus of PVP gear = 15% more crit on HiB = 50% crit

 

Demo Round: 2968 + 207% crit multi + 55% armour pen

High Impact Bolt: 2798 + 177% crit multi +85% armour pen

 

So average hits vs....

 

0 armour

DR: 4301

HiB: 3552

SB HiB: 3875

 

10 armour

DR: 4107

HiB: 3499

SB HiB: 3816

 

20 armour

DR: 3914

HiB: 3445

SB HiB: 3759

 

30 armour

DR: 3720

HiB: 3392

SB HiB: 3700

 

40 armour

DR: 3527

HiB: 3339

SB HiB: 3642

 

50 armour

DR: 3333

HiB: 3286

SB HiB: 3584

 

In certain circumstances HiB will surpass Demo but you need the PVP set bonus and need to be hitting on a tank.

 

But in PVE the PVP set is inferior as you fire a lot more Grav Rounds and 15% crit is better on those.

Edited June 13, 2012 by Gyronamics

[Freeborne]

Force leap back? They just walk back, you have an animation to finish and a 12 sec snare on you.

 

Sorry, you don't understand. You're really failing to read and comprehend.

 

Essence_of_Light specifically layed out the example of you stock striking someone, them backing up, and force leap at you.

 

And the answer to that is simple, and continues to be: a great tome to use your concussion knockback.

[TUXs]

I fail to see the problem here, in a 1v1 situation a Marauder SHOULD win almost every time.

 

Why is that? Aren't we supposed to be a DPS class? Shouldn't a DPS class be able to deal enough damage to kill ONE focused target in a 1v1 fight? I'm just trying to understand your...uh...'desire'?! to be worthless 1v1.

[azhrione]

Why is that? Aren't we supposed to be a DPS class? Shouldn't a DPS class be able to deal enough damage to kill ONE focused target in a 1v1 fight? I'm just trying to understand your...uh...'desire'?! to be worthless 1v1.

 

Because to make it 50/50 and entirely based upon skill, everyone would have to be playing the exact same class with the exact same abilities available to them.

 

Someone has to hold your trump card, and in the case of Gunnery Commandos it is melee DPS. Having a couple of specs be virtually unwinable is perfectly OK, and in no way makes someone "worthless 1v1".

 

To use your example, "Shouldn't a DPS class be able to deal enough damage to kill ONE focused target in a 1v1 fight?" Sure, in some instances yes, which is already the case. In every circumstance? No that would make them OP, which is exactly the problem with Marauders and Tank Assassins right now. They are too good in comparison to other classes, that however does not make Commandos broken, it makes those classes over powered.

[DarkSideTOR]

At the moment any class with interrupts holds a trump card against gunnery troopers. Does that mean they're all OP? No but it does point out the spec weakness and need of a reworking. I can't think of any other class spec that can be shut down as easily.

[Luceon]

Which is what azhrione is saying, we lack defensive structure however the design basis does not need to change. I agree that we do need classes that are better than others and that commandos lack proper defenses however there is no need to redesign the commando as a whole.

[GrantyJPS]

Sorry, you don't understand. You're really failing to read and comprehend.

 

Essence_of_Light specifically layed out the example of you stock striking someone, them backing up, and force leap at you.

 

And the answer to that is simple, and continues to be: a great tome to use your concussion knockback.

 

Yes, you are right, my bad. In that hypothetical situation that is indeed a great time to use your KB.

 

As an added tip, in the hypothetical situation where three marauders take all their armour off and lay down in front of you for a nap, that's a great time to use your Mortar Volley as they will neither move nor see the large target that appeared on the ground.

Edited June 14, 2012 by GrantyJPS