1.3 Maras/Sents no nerfs?

[Astarica]

I'm curious, what makes you say this? Most of the shadows I talk to say tanksin is downright boring. I do not have one, so I can't really comment

 

Skill has nothing to do with fun. Tankasins are boring to play but it doesn't mean you don't need skill.

 

If you accept that top Tankasin is one of the few if not only class that can reliably beat a top Marauder (seems to be relative consensus in that), it is fairly obvious that the average Marauder can beat the average Tankasin (far more general complaints about Marauders than Tankasin). Given those two criteria it has to be the case that Tankasins take more skill to play than Marauders because the class is weaker at the average level but better at the top level, and the only change there is the skill of the player.

[Metalmac]

While I do think maras/sents need a nerf to their durability, a correctly spec'd sage will always beat a mara/sent by kiting them. It's not easy, but it's doable.

 

The main issue I have with Maras/Sents is the insane amount of healing they do as a melee class.

Look at the healing they do while you are DoTing them and they heal through most of the DoTs with no effort.

It does not take skill to have that kind of healing and survival while hitting twice as hard as my Sage.

 

I have had many War Zones where I was in corner healing my self over and over and the Maras/Sents out healed me????

[mitchelloliver]

Commando's have 0% chance winning a 1 v 1 vs a mediocre marauder (interrupt grav round once is all that is required). Only very skilled sages can beat a skilled marauder. Only very skilled tanksins should beat an incredible marauder.

 

Anyone who thinks otherwise is in denial or hasn't played against a good one.

 

Odyssius - Marauder

Canderous Ordo

Edited June 14, 2012 by mitchelloliver

[ProfessorWalsh]

Skill has nothing to do with fun. Tankasins are boring to play but it doesn't mean you don't need skill.

 

If you accept that top Tankasin is one of the few if not only class that can reliably beat a top Marauder (seems to be relative consensus in that), it is fairly obvious that the average Marauder can beat the average Tankasin (far more general complaints about Marauders than Tankasin). Given those two criteria it has to be the case that Tankasins take more skill to play than Marauders because the class is weaker at the average level but better at the top level, and the only change there is the skill of the player.

 

Uhm.

 

I have a Sentinel and a Shadow Tank... Shadow Tank is easier to play than the Sentinel. The thing is a well played Sentinel (depending on spec) will destroy a Tankasin. There just aren't that many well played Sentinels. What you see often are well played Tankasins vs mediocre Sentinels.

 

Tankasin has a much lower skill requirement than the Sentinel or Marauder does.

 

Tankasins are "overpowered" because of the ability to stealth and self heal while having high damage mitigation and medium to high dps. Basically they are just as "overpowered" as people claim Watchmen are, only they heal better and have better all around damage mitigation. (I say all around because in burst situations a Sentinel can, for a very short time, have better mitigation.)

[ProfessorWalsh]

The main issue I have with Maras/Sents is the insane amount of healing they do as a melee class.

Look at the healing they do while you are DoTing them and they heal through most of the DoTs with no effort.

It does not take skill to have that kind of healing and survival while hitting twice as hard as my Sage.

 

I have had many War Zones where I was in corner healing my self over and over and the Maras/Sents out healed me????

 

*sigh* You do know that only Watchmen Sentinels can heal... They also can only heal for 2% of their HP per tick.

[ProfessorWalsh]

Commando's have 0% chance winning a 1 v 1 vs a mediocre marauder (interrupt grav round once is all that is required). Only very skilled sages can beat a skilled marauder. Only very skilled tanksins should beat an incredible marauder.

 

Anyone who thinks otherwise is in denial or hasn't played against a good one.

 

Odyssius - Marauder

Canderous Ordo

 

Actually depending on which tree they use a Sentinel will beat a Tankasin. The problem is the tree needed to do it isn't the most played tree, Watchman. The tree needed to kill a Tankasin is the Combat tree which is one of the least played.

[Varicite]

The main issue I have with Maras/Sents is the insane amount of healing they do as a melee class.

Look at the healing they do while you are DoTing them and they heal through most of the DoTs with no effort.

It does not take skill to have that kind of healing and survival while hitting twice as hard as my Sage.

 

I have had many War Zones where I was in corner healing my self over and over and the Maras/Sents out healed me????

 

Maras heal 2% per crit bleed. They can make their bleeds auto-crit when they use Berserk, so an on-demand 12% health.

 

At 18k health, this comes out to a 2160 heal that they can do "on demand". The rest is through RNG, and comes out to about 360 hp per crit bleed.

 

Do you honestly have problems outhealing this? <.<

[mitchelloliver]

Im not familiar with sent trees, but I play annihilation, and There are very few tanksins that beat me 1v1, however, they do not consistenyl beat me, 1 mistake by either of us determines winner.

[Superawesomerman]

Skill has nothing to do with fun. Tankasins are boring to play but it doesn't mean you don't need skill.

 

If you accept that top Tankasin is one of the few if not only class that can reliably beat a top Marauder (seems to be relative consensus in that), it is fairly obvious that the average Marauder can beat the average Tankasin (far more general complaints about Marauders than Tankasin). Given those two criteria it has to be the case that Tankasins take more skill to play than Marauders because the class is weaker at the average level but better at the top level, and the only change there is the skill of the player.

 

You seem to be focused on 1v1. Maras have team functionality tanks lack, but guard and taunt make up for it I suppose. However, I think people in general complaints more about Maras because they just do more dps. People only complaint about tankasin dps because it's unnaturally high *for a tank*. I would not say the average mara beats the average tanksin at all,. Rather the reverse.

[Astarica]

You seem to be focused on 1v1. Maras have team functionality tanks lack, but guard and taunt make up for it I suppose. However, I think people in general complaints more about Maras because they just do more dps. People only complaint about tankasin dps because it's unnaturally high *for a tank*. I would not say the average mara beats the average tanksin at all,. Rather the reverse.

 

Even though Tankasin clearly has better group contribution tools, at the average level the majority of contribution from either class is from DPS. The average Marauder will comfortably defeat the average Tankasin in terms of DPS contribution, especailly burst.

 

On the high end this swings back in the favor of Tankasin because of their massive utility and that Assassinate is arguably the best burst DPS skill in the game. But your average Tankasin isn't going to have the awareness to use Assassinate on every opportunity by constantly switching targets, while the average Marauder can probably use his finisher reliably on his target due to the his sheer DPS.

[Seravis]

The main issue I have with Maras/Sents is the insane amount of healing they do as a melee class.

Look at the healing they do while you are DoTing them and they heal through most of the DoTs with no effort.

It does not take skill to have that kind of healing and survival while hitting twice as hard as my Sage.

 

I have had many War Zones where I was in corner healing my self over and over and the Maras/Sents out healed me????

 

Everything a Marauder does has 1 key element. It requires being in melee range. even their "energy regen" requires it.

 

If you aren't kiting a Marauder at all you will probably lose every time, but if you do kite them for most of the fight you will probably win.

 

They are not the unkiteable class you think they are either unless they are carnage, but noone plays carnage because its a terrible 1v1 spec. Most Marauders are Annihilation and they have 1 gap closer on a 12 second CD and a 50% slow. Their vanish isn't a gap closer unless you are standing still during it(aka run away for 4 seconds!). If you are stuck in melee combat 100% of the fight against them... You are probably doing something wrong. Every class has a spec that can kite Marauders exceptionally well. Even Powertechs(Advanced Prototype) and Mercenaries(Pyro). If you don't want to play a spec that can kite Marauders, or you don't want to learn how to kite then you don't deserve to beat Marauders.

 

If you think Marauders are evenly remotely impossible to kite then good luck with Vengeance Juggernauts who have twice the gap closers and CC immunity (and Ravages).

[Superawesomerman]

Even though Tankasin clearly has better group contribution tools, at the average level the majority of contribution from either class is from DPS. The average Marauder will comfortably defeat the average Tankasin in terms of DPS contribution, especailly burst.

 

On the high end this swings back in the favor of Tankasin because of their massive utility and that Assassinate is arguably the best burst DPS skill in the game. But your average Tankasin isn't going to have the awareness to use Assassinate on every opportunity by constantly switching targets, while the average Marauder can probably use his finisher reliably on his target due to the his sheer DPS.

 

Before we can continue this we're going to have to decide what metric we'reusing for figuring out how one class "beats" another.

 

Does assassinate have a cooldown? Because from what I've seen the finishers for every class are roughly identical

[ProfessorWalsh]

Everything a Marauder does has 1 key element. It requires being in melee range. even their "energy regen" requires it.

 

If you aren't kiting a Marauder at all you will probably lose every time, but if you do kite them for most of the fight you will probably win.

 

They are not the unkiteable class you think they are either unless they are carnage, but noone plays carnage because its a terrible 1v1 spec. Most Marauders are Annihilation and they have 1 gap closer on a 12 second CD and a 50% slow. Their vanish isn't a gap closer unless you are standing still during it(aka run away for 4 seconds!). If you are stuck in melee combat 100% of the fight against them... You are probably doing something wrong. Every class has a spec that can kite Marauders exceptionally well. Even Powertechs(Advanced Prototype) and Mercenaries(Pyro). If you don't want to play a spec that can kite Marauders, or you don't want to learn how to kite then you don't deserve to beat Marauders.

 

If you think Marauders are evenly remotely impossible to kite then good luck with Vengeance Juggernauts who have twice the gap closers and CC immunity (and Ravages).

 

Carnage/Combat isn't a terrible 1v1 spec, that is just people who don't know how to use the class. I can 1v1 just fine.

[Superawesomerman]

Carnage/Combat isn't a terrible 1v1 spec, that is just people who don't know how to use the class. I can 1v1 just fine.

 

It's undeniably weaker than watch anni 1v1 tho

[Varicite]

Carnage/Combat isn't a terrible 1v1 spec, that is just people who don't know how to use the class. I can 1v1 just fine.

 

lol, haven't you heard, Professor?

 

"Not as strong as Annihilation at 1v1" = Terrible

 

That's fine, the more people keep saying this, the fewer people will realize how awesome Carnage can be.

Edited June 14, 2012 by Varicite

[Astarica]

Before we can continue this we're going to have to decide what metric we'reusing for figuring out how one class "beats" another.

 

Does assassinate have a cooldown? Because from what I've seen the finishers for every class are roughly identical

 

6s CD but the 25 Force cost is way cheaper than the 3 Rage cost for a Marauder since generating Force does not require melee range (or anything else, for that matter). It's a 360 degree attack for some unknown reason (can hit someone directly behind you), and has 30% chance to proc Energize.

 

Tankasins are obviously really good at sustained DPS (check WZ numbers), but what people don't realize is that since Assassinate is arguably the best burst DPS attack in the game, we're really good at taking all your credit and getting the credit on the killing blow, and since burst DPS is all about getting the kill, that makes us good at burst DPS too, even though we actually let other people do the work first.

 

If we're talking about WZ overall, I guess 'beat' means 'contribute more overall' even though that's obviously very vague. That said, until you get to the high level, DPS is the vast majority of your contribution to your team, and the average Marauder obviously beats the average Tankasin here easily.

Edited June 14, 2012 by Astarica

[Superawesomerman]

lol, haven't you heard, Professor?

 

"Not as strong as Annihilation at 1v1" = Terrible

 

That's fine, the more people keep saying this, the fewer people will realize how awesome Carnage can be.

 

Lulz, i made the swap to practice for rated.

[Seravis]

You seem to be focused on 1v1. Maras have team functionality tanks lack, but guard and taunt make up for it I suppose. However, I think people in general complaints more about Maras because they just do more dps. People only complaint about tankasin dps because it's unnaturally high *for a tank*. I would not say the average mara beats the average tanksin at all,. Rather the reverse.

 

Bloodlust-5 min CD

Predation-Costs a good chunk of DPS and self healing to use and has ~30 second CD

 

These 2 abilities that basically share the same "CD" are even remotely on par with Taunt, Guard, and solid CC for team functionality to you?

 

A Marauder plays like this - "I'm going to charge into the enemy team and put pressure on X target. I'm going to need a healer to heal me when the enemy team focuses me since I have to be in the middle of the enemy team and can't avoid the damage. I also need a tank to protect said healer because I don't have Taunt or Guard to do it. I also need someone to CC the healers as well as throw a stun on my target so they don't use a defensive CD since my stun is nearly worthless and my only decent CC has very short range. Since we got all the roles covered we might win!"

 

In this scenario a Marauder can indeed run into the middle of an enemy team and do some serious damage and be very hard to kill since he is being supported by his team. The key part of this is that is require 2-3 different classes and roles supporting him to achieve that result. Whats wrong with a melee dps class with minimal CC that does high damage and is hard to kill when 2-3 people support him?

 

Marauders are honestly pretty terrible at anything that isn't "Kill the squishy and be difficult to burst down". They make terrible node defenders because they lose to both stealth classes 1v1. They also make terrible ball carriers as their defenses don't last long enough. They are also terrible at killing ball carrier as they have to deal with 100% of tank stats, and they have the worse skillset for abusing hazards. So Marauders are neither the kings of 1v1, and they don't fill any group PVP roles well beyond "Kill the Squishy and be difficult to burst down"(Although they do a phenomenal job of it). Remove their high DPS and you remove their only real use in group PVP.

[Superawesomerman]

I guess we'll justhave to disagree here I guess. I think our definition of average differs, and until we both level the other class I'm not prepared to cite either of us as an authority here. I've forgotten what it's like to be an average mara.

[Superawesomerman]

Transcendace is the single most awesome utility for strategic group play. Awe is ridiculously good for stalling, and sentinels can survive just fine leaping into the middle of the fray and surviving. Maras are also the single best ac for locking down healers. I think you are under estimating Maras team contributions.

[Xinika]

Transcendace is the single most awesome utility for strategic group play. Awe is ridiculously good for stalling, and sentinels can survive just fine leaping into the middle of the fray and surviving. Maras are also the single best ac for locking down healers. I think you are under estimating Maras team contributions.

 

Why would an op class come out and say it's op.... again?

[Superawesomerman]

Why would an op class come out and say it's op.... again?

 

Why not? I can be unbiased, even if you can't.

[ProfessorWalsh]

Why would an op class come out and say it's op.... again?

 

He probably doesn't play a Marauder. Marauders and Sentinels are not overpowered. You want to see overpowered look at pre-1.2 Sorcerers or Tankassins.

[Astarica]

I guess we'll justhave to disagree here I guess. I think our definition of average differs, and until we both level the other class I'm not prepared to cite either of us as an authority here. I've forgotten what it's like to be an average mara.

 

But you acknowledge Marauders have a lot of other utilty, and most of their stuff is relatively easy to use. An average player might not know the best time to use Transcedence but most people know that using it at the beginning of Huttball is generally a good idea. While Tankasin has better utility overall than a Marauder, they interact in fairly subtle ways and an average Tankasin isn't going to make use of them, while the average Marauder should probably knows when to pop Transcedence. If you want to lockdown a healer, a Marauder has 6s CD interrupt versus 12s CD for Tankasin. Sure we got at least 3 other ways to interrupt a heal that a Marauder don't have, but all these build resolve so you have to know how to use them at the right time. While Force Pull + Spike + Overload gives me a far better overall package to deal with all situations, if we're just trying to lockdown a healer I'd take 6s CD over all of that, and from an average guy that's about all you need from him anyway. You don't expect the average guy to Force Pull their healer to the middle of nowhere and then cause him to be able to heal anyone else for the next 30 seconds.

 

And of course at the average range, the DPS contribution of a Marauder beats a Tankasin easily.

 

Now as you get better the Tankasin catches back up in subtle ways, and having taunt/guard puts them ahead overall. In fact, Guard is one of these ability that really demands skill since guarding the wrong guy just gets you killed for no reason.

 

At the average level, if you can tell me this guy can definitely do a lot of damage to one guy, that's already good enough for me. The average Tankasin isn't even going to be able to kill one guy very fast nor can you expect him to use all the other class tools well. It seems like people just the difficulty of a class by the number of buttons you press. I use about 5 buttons 95% of the time as a Tankasin but those 5 buttons can all impact the game in very significant ways, and of course I still have 43 other buttons to use for the other 5% of the time. Snaring your entire team + simultaneously debuffing them is actually pretty boring, but that also wins you games

Edited June 14, 2012 by Astarica

[Superawesomerman]

He probably doesn't play a Marauder. Marauders and Sentinels are not overpowered. You want to see overpowered look at pre-1.2 Sorcerers or Tankassins.

 

First, I play sentinel *coughsigcough*.

 

Second, nowhere have I asserted (seriously) that sentinels are op. The comments above were in relation to team utility vs Tankasins., and naturally twisted out of context by certain individuals with an obvious agenda.

 

Third, sages were not particularly op pre 1.2.