1.3 Maras/Sents no nerfs?

[UGLYMRJ]

I know how to play my classes. The fact that I have both at 50 makes me a bit more credible. I can kite a marauder. You can't kite AND killa marauder on slinger. If I want you kited I can't dot you, that breaks my CC's and my roots after 2 seconds. I have to watch constantly to make sure the mara doesn't break CC to get in cover so he can't charge me. LoS is good, I love it, it's my best friend and worst enemy.

.

 

Can you tell this to one of the Slingers on my servers that dominates... this guy is a Marauder hunter and he's a beast at it. I'm more than capable and always put up top tier numbers on damage AND objectives (people forget about this one) and another 50-75k healing, and this dude will smack me down 4 of 5 times. Not many slingers can do this to me but my point is... all it takes is the right formula. I've seen him do it to other marauders on my team as well. I'm pretty sure he hunts us...

Edited June 8, 2012 by UGLYMRJ

[Invictusthetaru]

Can you tell this to one of the Slingers on my servers that dominates... this guy is a Marauder hunter and he's a beast at it. I'm more than capable and always put up top tier numbers on damage AND objectives (people forget about this one) and this dude will smack me down 4 of 5 times. Not many slingers can do this to me but my point is... all it takes is the right formula. I've seen him do it to other marauders on my team as well. I'm pretty sure he hunts us...

 

Lol, if you are hunting them it is easy, because normally they are focused on someone else, which isn't my point

[Xerain]

I know how to play my classes. The fact that I have both at 50 makes me a bit more credible. I can kite a marauder. You can't kite AND killa marauder on slinger. If I want you kited I can't dot you, that breaks my CC's and my roots after 2 seconds. I have to watch constantly to make sure the mara doesn't break CC to get in cover so he can't charge me. LoS is good, I love it, it's my best friend and worst enemy.

 

My point began in a straight up fight. And in that instance the mara wins, hands down. Gunslinger is amazing at team based play and kiting does keep a mara out of the fight, I'll give you that. But my original point is that a slinger is NOT the counter to a marauder, because a counter can shut down a class, and that's simply not the case.

 

You also can't be a 31 31 31.

 

i linked the spec in a previous post i believe, don't need to be 31/31/31 just know how to play a lot smarter.

[Chemic_al]

... Amazing burst?

 

Yeah, tried seeing what burst a sorc gets and you get a TONNE of defensive abilties with it.

 

Stop trying to deflect the argument

[HurricaneXXIV]

The only hard counter in this game is any class vs a DPS Merc.

 

Snipers are great counters in group pvp to Mara's because they are forced to attack you, los you or die. They can't stay in line of sight of us and we can peel them off other classes with ease.

 

We can debate soloing. Snipers vs non middle tree mara/sents do very well. The leg shot mirrors their leap and snipers have multiple other ways to peel or create distance. In a group setting a good group will pick up on a player kiting and destroy the person doing the trailing.

Edited June 8, 2012 by HurricaneXXIV

[HurricaneXXIV]

Yeah, tried seeing what burst a sorc gets and you get a TONNE of defensive abilties with it.

 

Stop trying to deflect the argument

 

You can't compare melee defensive cool downs or abilities with ranged. There is no greater cool down than range vs a melee class.

[Invictusthetaru]

i linked the spec in a previous post i believe, don't need to be 31/31/31 just know how to play a lot smarter.

 

Mara's can play smart too bud.

[Boarg]

Actually i know my stuff and assassin is very comparable to a marauder but with far better utility. I didn't go and roll an assassin for nothing, they have far less weaknesses then a marauder while in tank spec, do comparable damage, have awesome utility, stealth, great defense, good burst, a lot of self healing (Too much self healing was my only problem with the class). But the class is boring to play sadly enough.

 

Tanksins in dps gear do not do comparable damage to Marauders. Deception can be a bit burstier, but sustained damage is still not close. Not even Madness, the "sustained damage" spec for Assassins, can match Marauders in sustained damage.

[Superawesomerman]

Yeah, tried seeing what burst a sorc gets and you get a TONNE of defensive abilties with it.

 

Stop trying to deflect the argument

 

Who's deflecting? Just because sorcs dont have burst doesnt mean maras do. Non-carnage maras.

[Xerain]

Tanksins in dps gear do not do comparable damage to Marauders. Deception can be a bit burstier, but sustained damage is still not close. Not even Madness, the "sustained damage" spec for Assassins, can match Marauders in sustained damage.

 

Yeah if 2k lightning channels with 4k normal shocks and 2k chain shock procs alone with 50% more crit damage on your most spammed move isn't comparable then alright.

 

Being able to 2k thrash > 4k shock > 2k thrash > 4k shock isn't stupid at all huh? And that's right away.

[Xerain]

Mara's can play smart too bud.

 

You have more tools too keep a mara off of you then a mara has to stay on you with the spec i linked, you need to learn to stay mobile and learn when the best time to drop into cover and cast is and you'll do a lot better.

[UGLYMRJ]

Lol, if you are hunting them it is easy, because normally they are focused on someone else, which isn't my point

I barely notice him in the fight cuz smugglers are not my main priority... I'm a healer hunter most of the time.

 

I'm talking 1v1 fights... I always run into him on Huttball and he targets me to take me out of the fight. He'll catch me away from the pack so my options are to cloak and get back in the game or fight him 1v1. He's a beast at what he does and probably my most frustrating fights are with this guy. Part of that problem could be I don't completely know the mechanics of smugglers, but none have been THIS MUCH of a problem before. I've now come to the point that I target him since our fights pretty much come down to whoever gets the drop on who. He USUALLY gets the drop on me since I'm very objective focused ESPECIALLY in Huttball. My thinking is that if I get the drop on him and take him out, then I can get him out of the game for a few and I can get back in helping my team. Unfortunately I like to stay ahead of the pack for positions to pass to me and this is where he comes back for me. It's an ongoing battle but....

 

My point is if a smuggler can hold is own and even dominate a capable marauder... I think most classes can.

[Boarg]

Yeah if 2k lightning channels with 4k normal shocks and 2k chain shock procs alone with 50% more crit damage on your most spammed move isn't comparable then alright.

 

Being able to 2k thrash > 4k shock > 2k thrash > 4k shock isn't stupid at all huh? And that's right away.

 

You can throw out random numbers all you want, but all you have to do is look at some damage logs and see that Marauders can do 25-30% more sustained damage than even Madness. Madness is 15-20% better than Deception for sustained damage. And Deception is about 10% better than Tanksin specs in dps gear - although Deception does have massively better burst.

 

There are lots of normal PvP situations where it's just continual damage and fighting for several minutes and Marauders blow away Tanksins in overall pressure and killing power if they are alive to fight.

 

The only reason Tanksins ever look at all comparable on scoreboards is just from being alive to fight and perhaps a little inflation from aoe. Don't mistake making numbers on scoreboards with "comparable damage" and especially not capability to help generate wins with killing power.

[Xerain]

You can throw out random numbers all you want, but all you have to do is look at some damage logs and see that Marauders can do 25-30% more sustained damage than even Madness. Madness is 15-20% better than Deception for sustained damage. And Deception is about 10% better than Tanksin specs in dps gear - although Deception does have massively better burst.

 

Seriously i don't care about your pve metrics. This is a pvp forum and that's not random numbers. So please we're talking about shorter fights here against players.

 

There are lots of normal PvP situations where it's just continual damage and fighting for several minutes and Marauders blow away Tanksins in overall pressure and killing power if they are alive to fight.

 

Yes if it were single target and the fight lasted an extremely long time on the one target where a marauder could get the extreme full potential out of all of it's abilities but fights simply dont' last that long.

 

The only reason Tanksins ever look at all comparable on scoreboards is just from being alive to fight and perhaps a little inflation from aoe. Don't mistake making numbers on scoreboards with "comparable damage" and especially not capability to help generate wins with killing power.

 

There are a few posts on these forums showing tankasins doing stupid insane crits that not even an annihilation marauder pulls off. Being able to survive and fight longer to do comparable damage is fine and an assassins killing power is fine.

 

A marauder can't do the numbers i just said like a tankasin can and that's without the chain shock proc chance either ok.

[Xinika]

There are a few posts on these forums showing tankasins doing stupid insane crits that not even an annihilation marauder pulls off. Being able to survive and fight longer to do comparable damage is fine and an assassins killing power is fine.

 

A marauder can't do the numbers i just said like a tankasin can and that's without the chain shock proc chance either ok.

 

You're cute. When you get nerfed I'll remember you.

 

Let's carry onto 60 please.

[Astarica]

Burst DPS in PvP is totally not the same as PvE. I suppose people say Marauder have burst and Tankasin don't because if you got a guy standing still, the Marauder will kill him really quick while the Tankasin won't.

 

But no one facetanks you in PvP unless they just want to die, especially given Marauders have near 100% win rate against facetanking opponent (someone has to be best at facetank fights). The fact that Tankasin can defeat Marauders even through Cloak of Pain puts two on comparable mitigation for a reasonably short duration fight (i.e. ~30 seconds, you can expect the buff to be always up because the Tankasin has no reason to stop hitting you for 6s anyway when he can beat you 1on1). While Marauders do higher DPS to a target that's standing still, their effective DPS in PvP is lowered due to the fact that nobody should be standing still against a Marauder. On the other hand, Tankasin's damaging moves are extremely hard to avoid by movement (2 out of 3 rotation moves are instant ranged, and Force Lightning stretches very far). While not all classes can kite a Marauder as well as a Tankasin, you most definitely should not give a Marauder 100% uptime on their DPS, while the Tankasin usually has 100% uptime on DPS. And guess what, if you can't hit the other guy, you don't have burst DPS either.

[Xerain]

Burst DPS in PvP is totally not the same as PvE. I suppose people say Marauder have burst and Tankasin don't because if you got a guy standing still, the Marauder will kill him really quick while the Tankasin won't.

 

But no one facetanks you in PvP unless they just want to die, especially given Marauders have near 100% win rate against facetanking opponent (someone has to be best at facetank fights). The fact that Tankasin can defeat Marauders even through Cloak of Pain puts two on comparable mitigation for a reasonably short duration fight (i.e. ~30 seconds, you can expect the buff to be always up because the Tankasin has no reason to stop hitting you for 6s anyway when he can beat you 1on1). While Marauders do higher DPS to a target that's standing still, their effective DPS in PvP is lowered due to the fact that nobody should be standing still against a Marauder. On the other hand, Tankasin's damaging moves are extremely hard to avoid by movement (2 out of 3 rotation moves are instant ranged, and Force Lightning stretches very far). While not all classes can kite a Marauder as well as a Tankasin, you most definitely should not give a Marauder 100% uptime on their DPS, while the Tankasin usually has 100% uptime on DPS. And guess what, if you can't hit the other guy, you don't have burst DPS either.

 

Sorry to say but plenty of people try to facetank me on my marauder, it's quite sad. They try to run for a minute and blow their knockbacks in stupid orders and then go back to casting while i beat their faces in.

 

Tankasin has more ways to stay in melee range than a marauder does, so they shouldn't have any problem with up time on their target.

[Ballzz]

No what they're saying is you should probably be playing the best and most useful spec for what role you want to play with your class. Not pick up pve talents only and expect to do super well because you're mainly a pve'er and didn't pick up the pvp talents to help fill the gaps.

 

You don't go a pvp spec to pve you pve spec to be the most effective you can be in pve, same goes for pvp yo.

 

Hybrid spec = heal + dps

Healer spec = healing

 

Hybrid is supposed to be REDUCED healing but with DPS. If i'm trying to spec for dps and healing that's fine to go hybrid. Pure healer spec should be better at healing but have little DPS. If I'm trying to spec for pure healer and have to go hybrid JUST TO HEAL that is broken. Saying that a hybrid spec is needed for HEALING is absurd (primarily because hybrid can survive not because they are better healers). And yes, they need to have dual specs in place if the intended design is for some specs to be worthless in PVP but required in PVE. This is a huge design flaw either way you look at it.

[Boarg]

While not all classes can kite a Marauder as well as a Tankasin, you most definitely should not give a Marauder 100% uptime on their DPS, while the Tankasin usually has 100% uptime on DPS. And guess what, if you can't hit the other guy, you don't have burst DPS either.

 

Even though Tankasin has more 10m moves, Marauder also has a more powerful snare that upkeeps more easily along with more frequent gap closers and more dot damage for the rare interruptions that they can't keep landing their normal damage.

 

Either way, the fact is that it's stupidly easy to stay on target and have your with with them with either of the two classes. If a person is having any trouble staying on target pretty much continuously as either class, they are quite simply not good.

 

Practical uptime differences between the two classes are negligible and trying to say otherwise is just misdirection.

[UGLYMRJ]

In regards to your guys conversation... the ability to stealth in and out of battle for a much longer duration is pretty damn nice and can make a huge difference in any fight.

[Boarg]

Seriously i don't care about your pve metrics. This is a pvp forum and that's not random numbers. So please we're talking about shorter fights here against players.

 

Yes if it were single target and the fight lasted an extremely long time on the one target where a marauder could get the extreme full potential out of all of it's abilities but fights simply dont' last that long.

 

There are a few posts on these forums showing tankasins doing stupid insane crits that not even an annihilation marauder pulls off. Being able to survive and fight longer to do comparable damage is fine and an assassins killing power is fine.

 

A marauder can't do the numbers i just said like a tankasin can and that's without the chain shock proc chance either ok.

 

If we were talking about 1v1ing people, you'd have a point. We're not though; we're talking about competitive warzones. In a competitive warzone (having to work hard to win) both of these classes are looking to participate in big sustained brawls with lots of players in order to win a key objective. Even if they die, they are rushing back in and so is the other team. This is not 20-30s of fighting where that ends in a player dying; it's several minutes of players bashing their heads against each other and is entirely common in warzones that are equally matched and will be even more common after 1.3.

 

In these type of fights, logs of dps capability across several minutes against target dummies and such start to have a lot of relevance and begin to closely represent what a high level pvp player can accomplish in a prolonged WZ brawl in terms of overall pressure and killing power. A good player in either spec can overcome target movements and make target switches to make uptime a complete non-issue. They certainly do a lot better job of representing damage capability than you rambling off a few random damage numbers in a biased manner.

[Superawesomerman]

Hybrid spec = heal + dps

Healer spec = healing

 

Hybrid is supposed to be REDUCED healing but with DPS. If i'm trying to spec for dps and healing that's fine to go hybrid. Pure healer spec should be better at healing but have little DPS. If I'm trying to spec for pure healer and have to go hybrid JUST TO HEAL that is broken. Saying that a hybrid spec is needed for HEALING is absurd (primarily because hybrid can survive not because they are better healers). And yes, they need to have dual specs in place if the intended design is for some specs to be worthless in PVP but required in PVE. This is a huge design flaw either way you look at it.

 

Hybriding sage is Bout survival and cc, not damage. The damage is incidental. If you want to heal and not survive, that is totally up to you, but if you'd rather not take advice and qq on the forums, well, there's really nothing more to be said.

[Xerain]

Hybrid spec = heal + dps

Healer spec = healing

 

Hybrid is supposed to be REDUCED healing but with DPS. If i'm trying to spec for dps and healing that's fine to go hybrid. Pure healer spec should be better at healing but have little DPS. If I'm trying to spec for pure healer and have to go hybrid JUST TO HEAL that is broken. Saying that a hybrid spec is needed for HEALING is absurd (primarily because hybrid can survive not because they are better healers). And yes, they need to have dual specs in place if the intended design is for some specs to be worthless in PVP but required in PVE. This is a huge design flaw either way you look at it.

 

Isn't the best pvp heal spec that hybrid though. I think i've watched streams of sorc/sages saying it is. It's to give you more defense you need for the healing and you still have super heals you just don't have the AOE heal.

 

And yes we all know we need dual specs.

[Xerain]

If we were talking about 1v1ing people, you'd have a point. We're not though; we're talking about competitive warzones. In a competitive warzone (having to work hard to win) both of these classes are looking to participate in big sustained brawls with lots of players in order to win a key objective. Even if they die, they are rushing back in and so is the other team. This is not 20-30s of fighting where that ends in a player dying; it's several minutes of players bashing their heads against each other and is entirely common in warzones that are equally matched and will be even more common after 1.3.

 

In these type of fights, logs of dps capability across several minutes against target dummies and such start to have a lot of relevance and begin to closely represent what a high level pvp player can accomplish in a prolonged WZ brawl in terms of overall pressure and killing power. A good player in either spec can overcome target movements and make target switches to make uptime a complete non-issue. They certainly do a lot better job of representing damage capability than you rambling off a few random damage numbers in a biased manner.

 

Come 1.3 with rated pvp it's not going to be annihilation that's played it's most likely going to be carnage for the on demand burst it has and the abilities it gives when focus firing people down because it's goign to do better in that regard.

 

Currently as it stands you focus fire anyone down as an annihilation marauder our dots are pointless to put up as you can't get a 3 stack off anyways before they die. Even currently if my dots aren't cleansed i'm finding myself using a deadly saber on multiple people, even though it may be 2 stacks on one and 1 on another, because everyone is dying thus it screws with a marauders sustained dps because they have a lot of ramp up.

 

To get the most potential out of your dps as a marauder those bleeds need to get to 3 to start ticking to be fully effective, which is not the case at all in pvp. You can use your pve argument all you want but it's not the same situation in pvp. Oh and pve boss fights are not training dummies either. training dummy fights are a controlled situation with 0 variables atleast a normal boss encounter has a few that can throw off the log some and pvp has even more.

 

It's not a biased manner when i play both classes and know what both are capable of.

[fungihoujo]

Isn't the best pvp heal spec that hybrid though. I think i've watched streams of sorc/sages saying it is. It's to give you more defense you need for the healing and you still have super heals you just don't have the AOE heal.

 

And yes we all know we need dual specs.

 

Not exactly super heals- you are relying still on long cast DI heals for a good chunk of your healing, and the loss of the aoe heal really hurts hard any time you're defending or trying to take a node- which is quite often (pretty much the only place the aoe heal isn't that useful is huttball due to the mobility of the match).

 

But yes- the lightning/corruption mixture does give more defensive ability- since full corruption adds zilch for CC/protection (making it a sitting duck for anyone who wants to kill it)- you end up with the KB and the stun- the mez is simply too long cast to be viable most of the time (generally, it gets you to waste their CC break so your stun gives you 4 seconds).

 

Lightning adds some CC since it has some good CC- you do get some added damage (no real burst so you won't kill anyone unless it's by attrition).

 

Where its usefulness as a healer mainly comes into play is the root on KB, the mez on the bubble (it's a shame that Lightning as a spec has such bad dps, because if it had good burst/damage it would actually be a decent spec... but lightning strike and thundering blast both hit way, way weaker than comparable abilities for other classes.... especially for an immobile damage spec).

 

And, it's also good for the force regeneration- actually the main purpose of it. Right now as corruption, it's more viable once you get low on force and are becoming frantic to burst down your own health, cast as much as you can and die then rez with full force again- especially in matches without much travel distance or if you get out of the doors fast- this however speaks more to how bad of a force regeneration system is in place for Corruption- and it is bad because a HEALER will do better by speccing halfway into a DPS tree, even though they lose- their only aoe heal, something like 10% bonus healing, 9% bonus willpower, and any viability of the mechanic that is supposed to be what is used for regenerating force for healers.

 

That is simply bad synergy- and it speaks to how bad it is when the best healing and damage specs are hybrid specs after the class already had its hybrids gutted- that's how illogical the end of tree make up is for sorcs.

 

Frankly, I love hybrids- I have no problems with them- BUT, a hybrid should be decent at the things it hybridizes, while the pures should be really good at it- the hybrids are decent- the one we're speaking of now is actually good at healing and decent though not great for dps... but it's better for healing than the pure is in most situations, AND, it's considerably better for survival too.

 

Really- we need the pures looked at because they have been bad since day one, and just nerfing hybrids but not touching the pures isn't going to help.