HurricaneXXIV Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 Mercs work well as bait against Marauders. The best use of a Merc is to sit in the middle of two snipers, the snipers will then not have to move. I like this! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Superawesomerman Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 The best use of a Merc is to sit in the middle of two snipers, the snipers will then not have to move. I like this! I had to lol at this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UGLYMRJ Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 (edited) I accidentally posted halfway but not being able to beat either class in WZ objectives doesn't necessarily mean you can't win 1on1, it's just that the effort you'd need to beat them 1on1 is never worth it in WZ objectives (because everyone else is way easier to kill). You can actually neutralize both classes effectively if there's a guy willing to be bait and just repeatedly die, since Marauders and especially Tankasin don't actually kill people faster than say, a Pyro or a Sniper. So while the bait is dying repeatedly your own DPS should be getting comparable kill rates with the Tankasin/Marauder off their back. You really should get used to ignoring both classes if you're not one of them if at all possible, not because they're weak and can't kill you, but that you can't kill them anyway so you might as well cut your losses and move on immediately. Again.... more lulz... thank you! As much as I'm enjoying this interesting tactical strategy... some classes are better than other at taking out other classes. It's very much a complicated game of rock paper scissors only sometimes... scissors can beat rock depending on skill level. Anyways, my point and my lulz are because even tho kiting them is very effective the rest of your strategy "to die" is probably the funniest and worst idea I've heard yet. Roll a marauder, a pyrotech and a sniper to 50... read up on them... watch some vids.... and then come back with another strategy. I'm pretty sure "roll up into a ball and die" is NOT the best tactic I've heard so far. Edited June 8, 2012 by UGLYMRJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astarica Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 Again.... more lulz... thank you! As much as I'm enjoying this interesting tactical strategy... some classes are better than other at taking out other classes. It's very much a complicated game of rock paper scissors only sometimes... scissors can beat rock depending on skill level. Anyways, my point and my lulz are because even tho kiting them is very effective the rest of your strategy "to die" is probably the funniest and worst idea I've heard yet. Roll a marauder, a pyrotech and a sniper to 50... read up on them... watch some vids.... and then come back with another strategy. I'm pretty sure "roll up into a ball and die" is NOT the best tactic I've heard so far. The defensive ability of Marauder/Tankasin is far beyond rest of the DPS that there can never be a case where it make sense to go for them first unless they're the only DPS left, because there are almost always classes that do comparable DPS but are way easier to kill. In terms of winning WZ, there is no counter for a non Marauder/Tankasin class versus one. You've to eat your death because killing one of them puts your team more behind than you dying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Superawesomerman Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 Again.... more lulz... thank you! As much as I'm enjoying this interesting tactical strategy... some classes are better than other at taking out other classes. It's very much a complicated game of rock paper scissors only sometimes... scissors can beat rock depending on skill level. Anyways, my point and my lulz are because even tho kiting them is very effective the rest of your strategy "to die" is probably the funniest and worst idea I've heard yet. Roll a marauder, a pyrotech and a sniper to 50... read up on them... watch some vids.... and then come back with another strategy. I'm pretty sure "roll up into a ball and die" is NOT the best tactic I've heard so far. I think astarica meant "stall" which does involve dying and,is a viable tactic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
williambr Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 Again.... more lulz... thank you! As much as I'm enjoying this interesting tactical strategy... some classes are better than other at taking out other classes. It's very much a complicated game of rock paper scissors only sometimes... scissors can beat rock depending on skill level. Anyways, my point and my lulz are because even tho kiting them is very effective the rest of your strategy "to die" is probably the funniest and worst idea I've heard yet. Roll a marauder, a pyrotech and a sniper to 50... read up on them... watch some vids.... and then come back with another strategy. I'm pretty sure "roll up into a ball and die" is NOT the best tactic I've heard so far. If its a game of rock paper scissors, what are Mercs? Wet toilet paper? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HurricaneXXIV Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 If its a game of rock paper scissors, what are Mercs? Wet toilet paper? The third hand that doesn't get invited to play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kllashaa Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 While you can argue where exactly those numbers fall in, you can see that Tankasin and Marauders are way at the bottom in terms of desireable DPS to kill (most due to they're so hard to kill). This means even if you kill them, you still lose the WZ because the effort it takes to kill one of them could've been used to take out a Sniper + PT which would certainly help your team far more than taking out one of either character. This is a great summation regarding the most core problem with group PVP class balance. It's very easy to kill most DPS-specced classes like Pyrotechs, Sorcs, and Mercenaries, but other classes are incredibly self-sustaining (namely Tankasins and Anni Maras) in proportion to the damage they can put out, to the point where a disproportionate amount of the valor60+ playerbase plays these classes. On the bright side, Snipers are looking pretty good for 1.3. In between Snipers and Pyrotechs, the metagame may shift over towards RDPS for 8mans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xerain Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 This is a great summation regarding the most core problem with group PVP class balance. It's very easy to kill most DPS-specced classes like Pyrotechs, Sorcs, and Mercenaries, but other classes are incredibly self-sustaining (namely Tankasins and Anni Maras) in proportion to the damage they can put out, to the point where a disproportionate amount of the valor60+ playerbase plays these classes. On the bright side, Snipers are looking pretty good for 1.3. In between Snipers and Pyrotechs, the metagame may shift over towards RDPS for 8mans. the meta should of already been shifting to ranged dps because the influx of omg mara and sins are so good. A sniper is a pretty good counter to both sin and mara. Merc/Com dps needs a buff though to make it on par... I don't know why the hsm/demo as hard as it was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Superawesomerman Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 The defensive ability of Marauder/Tankasin is far beyond rest of the DPS that there can never be a case where it make sense to go for them first unless they're the only DPS left, because there are almost always classes that do comparable DPS but are way easier to kill. In terms of winning WZ, there is no counter for a non Marauder/Tankasin class versus one. You've to eat your death because killing one of them puts your team more behind than you dying. If that were true, then a full tanksin / mara team would win all the time. I think your logic is seriously flawed. I do agree with you desirable kill listing (lol arsenal), but killing isnt everything. Maras are cc bait, like most melee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UGLYMRJ Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 Everyone still ignoring my main solutions.... roll those 3 classes, do some research and then you will truly see the balance if you can play these 3 classes properly. You can twist words and pick 2 sentences from every paragraph to support your cause... but I can speak from experience and don't feel anyone should speak from anything less. If you don't have experience all you have is assumptions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xinika Posted June 8, 2012 Author Share Posted June 8, 2012 Page 50 would be nice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Superawesomerman Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 Everyone still ignoring my main solutions.... roll those 3 classes, do some research and then you will truly see the balance if you can play these 3 classes properly. You can twist words and pick 2 sentences from every paragraph to support your cause... but I can speak from experience and don't feel anyone should speak from anything less. If you don't have experience all you have is assumptions. yes, but basically what you're saying is "l2p" We're trying to have a little more indepth discussion than that. Buttstink. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astarica Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 (edited) If that were true, then a full tanksin / mara team would win all the time. I think your logic is seriously flawed. I do agree with you desirable kill listing (lol arsenal), but killing isnt everything. Maras are cc bait, like most melee. That list was done from the DPS point of view. Of course you do take classes for utilty and most importantly their aiblity to kill healers (generally more valuable than any DPS), but adding that in would make the comparison way too complex. Here's a simplified scenario. Assume DPS of PT is exactly same as a Marauder, and Marauder defense > PT defense. You're a PT and a Marauder is attacking you, and you see another enemy PT nearby (he's not attacking you). Assuming the Marauder does no ability to hinder your ablity to do DPS, who should you attack? You always attack the PT first because in theory you kill the PT the same time the Marauder kills you, so both sides are down one PT and are equal. If you attack the Marauder first, you'll usually lose, but let's say you pull off some amazing stuff and win. But here, you still lose compared to attacking the PT, because no matter what amazing stuff you just did, it would've killed the PT even faster (Marauder survivality > PT survivality). Being a man up is pretty much the greatest advantage you can get in a WZ, and since you can kill the PT faster than the Marauder always, this means your side will get the equivalent of a "Power Play" longer if you attack the PT first in all possible situation. Yes, attacking the PT means you probably die to the Marauder, but your side will be better off with your sacrifice. If your choice is only between DPS targets, there is simply no reason to ever hit a Tankasin/Marauder before anyone else. Of course there are always healers, and both Tankasin/Marauder have considerably ability to deny your ability to DPS other targets (taunt on Tankasin is particularly nasty). And thus that's why they're overpowered, because they can often force you in a fight where you cannot win in terms of WZ objectives. Edited June 8, 2012 by Astarica Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HollowVamp Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 biowares way of saying l2p lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UGLYMRJ Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 (edited) yes, but basically what you're saying is "l2p" We're trying to have a little more indepth discussion than that. Buttstink. THIS is in depth? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! All I see is a kleenex party? How is this in depth? Almost no one is talking tactics, strategy or anything of the sort. Seriously.... the title of the thread says it all. At least I'm giving a viable option that would HELP players learn how to counter a marauder and what classes are better against them. As a marauder I'm probably giving more useful information on how to beat me than anyone else on this thread! No I'm not drawing out a detailed map because it would be the same thing over and over. I could waste my time going into detail but everyone would pick one sentence that they disagree with and totally flip this issue back to something else. Personally I feel like I'm being far more constructive here than most and helping people beat ME! Sorry if I LOL'd at the "rolling into a little ball and dying" option... hard to take that seriously. Edited June 8, 2012 by UGLYMRJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Superawesomerman Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 @astarica I get you point, but it really only applies on defense. Tanksins and maras are great solo defenders, and good floaters (taking solo defended nodes). On offense, that survivability isnt as important, because you can cc them and kill other guys, then gang up on the mara. neglecting the fact that maras predation gives them another strategic advantage no other class has. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Superawesomerman Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 THIS is in depth? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! All I see is a kleenex party? How is this in depth? Almost no one is talking tactics, strategy or anything of the sort. Seriously.... the title of the thread says it all. At least I'm giving a viable option that would HELP players learn how to counter a marauder and what classes are better against them. As a marauder I'm probably giving more useful information on how to beat me than anyone else on this thread! No I'm not drawing out a detailed map because it would be the same thing over and over. I could waste my time going into detail but everyone would pick one sentence that they disagree with and totally flip this issue back to something else. Personally I feel like I'm being far more constructive here than most and helping people beat ME! Sorry if I LOL'd at the "rolling into a little ball and dying" option... hard to take that seriously. Lol, no, I thought that was funny too. Also, kleenex party sounds like a circle jerk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Invictusthetaru Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 Again.... more lulz... thank you! As much as I'm enjoying this interesting tactical strategy... some classes are better than other at taking out other classes. It's very much a complicated game of rock paper scissors only sometimes... scissors can beat rock depending on skill level. Anyways, my point and my lulz are because even tho kiting them is very effective the rest of your strategy "to die" is probably the funniest and worst idea I've heard yet. Roll a marauder, a pyrotech and a sniper to 50... read up on them... watch some vids.... and then come back with another strategy. I'm pretty sure "roll up into a ball and die" is NOT the best tactic I've heard so far. "Roll 3 classes to learn to take down a mara" LOL How about you just learn what they are good at and counter it? Roots are very important. Organized knockbacks are important as well. While I am bursting a healer down on my slinger I will often go up to a group of melee on my healer and knock them all back. I don't care what anyone says though, if a mara has saber ward off CD, someone is dying, that's just the way it works. We do a **** ton of DPS and get some abilities that give us the time to do it. The reason powertechs and snipers are NOT direct counters to marauders is because marauders can **** their faces if they jump to them. The snare on rupture and the snare a mara is given is more than enough to not be kited. Not to mention we can cloak out when knocked back AND blind anyone we are fighting. This means no rail shot for powertech and no burst for sniper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astarica Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 @astarica I get you point, but it really only applies on defense. Tanksins and maras are great solo defenders, and good floaters (taking solo defended nodes). On offense, that survivability isnt as important, because you can cc them and kill other guys, then gang up on the mara. neglecting the fact that maras predation gives them another strategic advantage no other class has. Yeah that's fine but really 'CC them and kill others' basically is an euphemism for 'whoever the Mara/Tanksin is after is dead'. I know the strat works since that's what I do against them (there's no point for even a Tankasin to fight another Tankasin while any other targets are available) but I don't like this kind of gameplay. Further, it creates a fundamental problem in terms of perception. If you dealt with Mara/Tanksin correctly like you said, then it has to be the case that they're dominating individual performance (the guy you choose to kill last obviously has the most time to do stuff). Although the team should be the most important part, I don't think it's right some classes always get to appear as the hero. This also ignores both of these classes have considerable denial abilities that makes ignoring them often quite painful. As a Tankasin I can often attack 3 guys heading to reinforce another point with impunity because if they fight back, they get stalled and we take the point. If they try to get away, well, they can't get away because I'll snare and Force Pull a guy back in and probably pick off 1 guy by the time they get to their destination. Marauder enjoys the similar advantage too in such a case. I think in these 1v3 scenario you should either be able to stall them or punish them for ignoring you, but not both. Currently Mara and Tankasin can do both. You ignore them, you get punished greviously for doing that and probably lose the WZ. But if you don't ignore them, you lose the WZ.anyway because you get stalled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UGLYMRJ Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 "Roll 3 classes to learn to take down a mara" LOL How about you just learn what they are good at and counter it? Roots are very important. Organized knockbacks are important as well. While I am bursting a healer down on my slinger I will often go up to a group of melee on my healer and knock them all back. Wow... you LOL at my point and then repeat it.... awesome. My point was only that you will learn far more from playing them than you will googling them... both can be useful tho. Thanks for further proving my point that people will take one sentence at twist it to further THEIR argument. I've said research and roll... either are far more valuable than spamming forums. And I'm not saying anything on whether or not the are OP... all I'm saying is there are far more constructive ways to get better. I figured out on day one there is no argument that will convince anyone that they may not be as skilled as other players or that marauders aren't godly like creatures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wefi Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 I play a Rock. paper is overpowered, I know cuz i tried it, and killed other Rocks. My rock friends played as Paper, and now Scissors are OP, nerf them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Superawesomerman Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 (edited) what invic said. The best way to learn how to counter any class is to play, that is true, but maras in particular because we are a sum of a bunch of abilities and you need to know,them all to be truly effective. Edited June 8, 2012 by Superawesomerman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UGLYMRJ Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 I play a Rock. paper is overpowered, I know cuz i tried it, and killed other Rocks. My rock friends played as Paper, and now Scissors are OP, nerf them. ^^^THIS^^^ is 90% of what the forums have become....SMH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UGLYMRJ Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 (edited) ^this. The best way to learn how to counter any class is to play, that is true, but maras in particular because we are a sum of a bunch of abilities and you need to know,them all to be truly effective. Thank YOU!!! Especially marauders since their D abilities are very different than other classes. There are no stuns, no KB's, etc. They have a very unique set of defensive abilities which is a very large part of the reason people have trouble with them. So like I've said a hundred times... not trying to be rude but it really is a L2P. No the balance isn't perfect... I def thing marauders are on the higher tier right now but def not on top when it comes to overall effectiveness. An MMO will NEVER be perfectly balanced... want proof? Play WoW and check the WoW forums 7 years after release. Edited June 8, 2012 by UGLYMRJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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