1.3 Patch Notes are out

[JidaiGeki]

ST's are not getting big DPS numbers now. Nobody is complaining about OP damage from PT tanks. The nerf is out of nowhere-- it wasn't alluded to in the slightest, not even in the blog post justifying the tanksin nerfs-- and is just kicking one of the most unpopular AC trees in the balls for no apparent reason.

[Noollig]

I don't think any of the PT community can say that they honestly believe the shield tech damage was over the top... or even remotely close to the top.

 

It seems like they could have made all the threat generation changes without ever touching damage. I don't get the nerf, but I won't be playing ST in warzones if this goes live.

Edited June 7, 2012 by Noollig

[pure_laced]

I don't think any of the PT community can say that they honestly believe the shield tech damage was over the top... or even remotely close to the top.

 

It seems like they could have made all the threat generation changes without ever touching damage. I don't get the nerf, but I won't be playing ST in warzones if this goes live.

 

I do agree with this. The damage wasn't over the top as compared to Sins.

[Rahh]

How much DPS are you guys doing Pre 1.3?

 

In mostly Columi/modded/pvp gear i get around 600-700dps MT on bosses on normal mode operations....

Shield 46.94%, Absorb 47.45%, and Defense Chance is at 12.85% which I know DC needs a bit of improvment...

[TheOpf]

I don't think any of the PT community can say that they honestly believe the shield tech damage was over the top... or even remotely close to the top.

 

It seems like they could have made all the threat generation changes without ever touching damage. I don't get the nerf, but I won't be playing ST in warzones if this goes live.

 

You are getting more free damage attacks, and losing some decent damage on your strongest attack currently. I am not sure what the issues is. A free Flame sweep is pretty nice to toss in there when you aren't RPing and rail shoting.

[JidaiGeki]

In PvP, flame sweep is useless except for stopping caps. A free flame sweep does not compensate us for the loss of all that crit chance and damage on rocket punch.

[Agooz]

You are getting more free damage attacks, and losing some decent damage on your strongest attack currently. I am not sure what the issues is. A free Flame sweep is pretty nice to toss in there when you aren't RPing and rail shoting.

 

STs didnt need free Flame sweeps for any reason. Their PvP dps was subpar to begin with compared to Tanksins. Their survivability is the worst among the 3 tanks, because we rely on shield/absorb which sucks in PvP. This change makes absolutely no sense. They give us extra threat generation for PvE, something that no decent ST was complaining about in the first place.

 

I really think this patch just put the nail on the coffin for me. I think I am done giving BW $15/month and spend my time in this game adapting to senseless and absurd changes, patch after patch.

[Noollig]

STs didnt need free Flame sweeps for any reason. Their PvP dps was subpar to begin with compared to Tanksins. Their survivability is the worst among the 3 tanks, because we rely on shield/absorb which sucks in PvP. This change makes absolutely no sense. They give us extra threat generation for PvE, something that no decent ST was complaining about in the first place.

 

I really think this patch just put the nail on the coffin for me. I think I am done giving BW $15/month and spend my time in this game adapting to senseless and absurd changes, patch after patch.

 

Yeah it's a sad thing. I hope the drop they random nerf from the patch. I was excited about server transfers but if they are going to let something like this go through, I'm going to lose faith in BW too.

Edited June 8, 2012 by Noollig

[Vanishing_Point]

Flame sweep is great but you only really need to use it as a tank in pvp to refresh the damage debuff, so it's not a huge draw on resources. It would be better if the rocket leap also gave the next flame sweep an added 50% damage buff or something. As it stands now the patch will potentially increase the tanks overall damage in a wz if he uses his railshot in crowds and flame sweep more but these will be padded numbers and not meaningful dps.

 

The single target damage is useful because if you are protecting someone with guard, you need to be able to do enough damage to an attacker to force them to withdraw, attack you instead, or kill them. Without the single target damage to do this they can ignore you, and rely on their aoe, or a quick switch attack to remove your taunt debuff, while still keeping up their dps.

 

Personally I'd like to see shields having a chance to proc on taking guard damage, I think that would help us out a lot.

Edited June 8, 2012 by Vanishing_Point

[Ossos]

"Supercharged Ion Gas now increases Ion Overload damage by 25%. While Ion Gas Cylinder is active, Rail Shot triggers your Ion Gas Cylinder on the target and up to 4 additional nearby targets. This damage does not affect sleeping, lifted, or incapacitated enemies. This generates a high amount of threat."

 

 

Does this mean that they fixed Supercharged Ion Gas? Before it was only doing 25% of the damage it was supposed to and was NOT worth the talent point (Someone specing it is a fantastic noob indicator). Anyhow, did they fix it? Because if they didn't it's only a 25% increase on something that was only 25% functional. Which makes Supercharged Ion Gas what....31.14% functional now?

[JidaiGeki]

I would actually be fine with this ability nerf if they would buff the thing our tree most focuses on-- make shields applicable to, if not Force attacks, at THE VERY LEAST tech attacks. There's no reason an op's hidden strike ignores my shield, it's a goddamn vibroblade. How much more viable would we be if we had a shield chance against tech attacks?

[TheOpf]

STs didnt need free Flame sweeps for any reason. Their PvP dps was subpar to begin with compared to Tanksins. Their survivability is the worst among the 3 tanks, because we rely on shield/absorb which sucks in PvP. This change makes absolutely no sense. They give us extra threat generation for PvE, something that no decent ST was complaining about in the first place.

 

I really think this patch just put the nail on the coffin for me. I think I am done giving BW $15/month and spend my time in this game adapting to senseless and absurd changes, patch after patch.

 

I am playing my operative more and more because on my PT I was constantly pulling off every tank. All tanks had threat issues against an equally geared PT or Mara. My tanks hate me in raids right now, and they think I do it on purpose. On bosses you can't guard me because there is so much melee damage to us that it would kill the tank so the best they can do is cycle taunts. This was an issue.

 

 

PT tanks had the worst threat generation on single targets out there. A jug or assassin were way better in terms of maintaining threat. What PT tanks had was the best passive defensive and mitigation stats out there.

 

For pvp, no one ever worried about a PT tank or the Ion Cell dps fanatics. You ignored them, they did almost no damage to you, and though they were tougher to kill than an AP/Pyro they weren't tougher than Tankasins and Juggernaughts. Juggernaughts had their stuns, tankasins had their self heals, and PT tanks had absolutely nothing. Their Rocket punch had a best a 2k crit which in today's game is a normal hit for your dps guys.

 

The Vanguards are way more optimistic about this change than you guys. How many fights do you see where there is more than one person. Jet Charge plus two free flame sweeps (heat venting baby) and then Ion cell Rail shot slows that's going to be absolutely amazing. I hate aoe slows from Knight/Warrior class. This makes you more of a utility which should be your role anyways. You perform slows, and use aoe damage to increase the amount of pressure on a healer. A healer who has to heal multiple targets is less effective than the guy healing one target. Remember the adrenal relic change is going to effectively bring most of your burst guys down a bit.

[TheOpf]

I would actually be fine with this ability nerf if they would buff the thing our tree most focuses on-- make shields applicable to, if not Force attacks, at THE VERY LEAST tech attacks. There's no reason an op's hidden strike ignores my shield, it's a gosh darn vibroblade. How much more viable would we be if we had a shield chance against tech attacks?

 

 

I wish this change would take place, or at least gave PT tanks more interrupts or stuns. As it is in pvp you have the stealth tankasin who can self heal, the stun machine known as a juggernaught/guardian tank, and PT's who do um well no definable ability.

[pure_laced]

Shield should apply to all attacks. It is a shield for pete's sake. The only thing that shouldn't be shielded is internal dmg ONCE it has been applied. Everything else should be fair game IMHO. Tanks should be hard to kill, but also hit for nothing.

[JidaiGeki]

For pvp, no one ever worried about a PT tank or the Ion Cell dps fanatics. You ignored them, they did almost no damage to you, and though they were tougher to kill than an AP/Pyro they weren't tougher than Tankasins and Juggernaughts. Juggernaughts had their stuns, tankasins had their self heals, and PT tanks had absolutely nothing. Their Rocket punch had a best a 2k crit which in today's game is a normal hit for your dps guys.

 

Exactly. So they added the AOE snare to rail shot, which is a nice buff, and then without warning or justification nerfed the hell out of our primary ability. You yourself just said it doesn't hit for amazing damage, so irrespective of what we're gaining, where's the justification for nerfing it? From a PvP perspective, do the gains really outweigh the losses?

[Noollig]

Tanks should be hard to kill, but also hit for nothing.

 

I hate this train of thought. There is no dual spec system in this game, who is going to want to play a tank all the time if they take forever to kill stuff? Not me. I don't want to spend all my money from dailies respeccing constantly either.

[pure_laced]

I hate this train of thought. There is no dual spec system in this game, who is going to want to play a tank all the time if they take forever to kill stuff? Not me. I don't want to spend all my money from dailies respeccing constantly either.

 

Currently, in tank gear and spec it already takes forever to kill stuff as compared to full dps. However, all the tank gear gives us for mitigation is against "white" hits, which everyone in PvP rarely use because it is always tech/force attacks basically. Regardless of how you want to play, doesn't change the fact of how it should be. Tanks should be tanks, not weaker dps that are easily killed just by blowing in their direction. Shield/Absorb should actually mean something.

 

There are plenty of people that like to play that support role. It is irrelevant if you do or not.

[TheOpf]

Exactly. So they added the AOE snare to rail shot, which is a nice buff, and then without warning or justification nerfed the hell out of our primary ability. You yourself just said it doesn't hit for amazing damage, so irrespective of what we're gaining, where's the justification for nerfing it? From a PvP perspective, do the gains really outweigh the losses?

 

Because they didn't want a 2200 RP with the free aoe's, which would have made them as strong pvp wise as current Tankasins in theory. Granted I don't think that ever would have happened. Personally, I think they should give the PT an extra stun. If the buff was a free dfa, no one would complain because dfa is awesome. Flame sweep is pretty powerful when used right.

 

I showed a Vangaurd how to use Surge when in the middle of a pile of guys trying to kill you. It hits for a decent amount, and forces the healer to multi-heal which allows your dps to burst someone down. I don't think they needed to nerf ST's RP, but I don't see it as gamebreaking that they did.

 

As a tank, your role will now be to guard someone while jumping into the middle. If specced right your flame sweep is also reducing damage done across the board by 4-6 percent (I can't remember the right number). So you are jumping in using your sweep reducing damage done, aoe dotting, and aoe slowing. Seems to me like it's a significant pvp improvement over the absolute waste in pvp you currently were (no offense intended).

 

I wholeheartedly agree that shields should defend every attack, but could you imagine if someone then stacked a ton of shield and absorb so that they were essentially 500 dps Marauders God Mode Shield guys. I mean he may only hit for 500 dps, but you can only hit him for 100 ;p. Craziness would abound. Let's not freak until we see it live.

Edited June 8, 2012 by TheOpf

[TheOpf]

Currently, in tank gear and spec it already takes forever to kill stuff as compared to full dps. However, all the tank gear gives us for mitigation is against "white" hits, which everyone in PvP rarely use because it is always tech/force attacks basically. Regardless of how you want to play, doesn't change the fact of how it should be. Tanks should be tanks, not weaker dps that are easily killed just by blowing in their direction. Shield/Absorb should actually mean something.

 

There are plenty of people that like to play that support role. It is irrelevant if you do or not.

 

I agree except like I said above, it could get dicing if they allowed you to just stack absorb and shields.

[Noollig]

Currently, in tank gear and spec it already takes forever to kill stuff as compared to full dps. However, all the tank gear gives us for mitigation is against "white" hits, which everyone in PvP rarely use because it is always tech/force attacks basically. Regardless of how you want to play, doesn't change the fact of how it should be. Tanks should be tanks, not weaker dps that are easily killed just by blowing in their direction. Shield/Absorb should actually mean something.

 

There are plenty of people that like to play that support role. It is irrelevant if you do or not.

 

It doesn't take me long to kill stuff. I don't run around in flashpoints soloing bosses, but the normal stuff in Black Hole is still easy enough to kill. If it took me twice as long to kill crap, then I'd just give up tanking and only DPS.

 

I don't want to have to pay to respec every time I need to tank something. If they make it so a tank in DPS gear does next to no damage, then I'd stop playing a tank, because I like to finish my dailies quickly.

[pure_laced]

It doesn't take me long to kill stuff. I don't run around in flashpoints soloing bosses, but the normal stuff in Black Hole is still easy enough to kill. If it took me twice as long to kill crap, then I'd just give up tanking and only DPS.

 

I don't want to have to pay to respec every time I need to tank something. If they make it so a tank in DPS gear does next to no damage, then I'd stop playing a tank, because I like to finish my dailies quickly.

 

Do you even play this game or read the thread? Read what I write and put into the context of how it is written. We are talking about PvP currently. PvP "tanks" aren't tanks in the strictest sense of the word because shield/absorb stats are meaningless, which in turn, makes most people using the spec for pvp wear dps gear that increases their damage output considerably.

 

Tank damage in tank gear isn't overpowering, and is about on par for where it should be if wearing full tank gear. But no one wears the tank gear because wearing it gives you no benefit in PvP besides higher health pool.

 

The comment of "Tanks should be hard to kill, but also hit for nothing." is relative to what it is right now in tank gear. Wear full tank gear and go try and kill someone. You wont be able to do it. But they can kill you with ease because your tank stats don't offer you any protection. That is wrong and should be changed, but probably won't.

 

Damage is fine pre 1.3, but the comment wet noodle but hard to kill still applies to PvP. Hardly anyone cares about doing Blackhole dailies, Heroic 2, or any of that other stuff to be honest. They care about warzones, rated warzones, and pve ops.

[JeffrenBrek]

Inb4 we get nerfed to the ground in 1.4.

[JidaiGeki]

The comment of "Tanks should be hard to kill, but also hit for nothing." is relative to what it is right now in tank gear. Wear full tank gear and go try and kill someone. You wont be able to do it. But they can kill you with ease because your tank stats don't offer you any protection. That is wrong and should be changed, but probably won't.

 

QFT. My hardest-hitting attack as a PT still crits for less than 2k. I, as a full tank-geared tank, have a 12-13% crit chance unbuffed (I have the operative buff from legacy, so it ends up at 17-18% but it's still not great). My operative healer has a 37% crit chance and has a stealth attack that hits for ~2k before crit, two more very hard-hitting melee attacks (that are actually tech attacks and so ignore shields) and a ranged attack that effortlessly crits for 2.5k (explosive probe). Add to this orbital strike, and for a character who is not spec'd for damage at all, he can pull pretty respectable damage.

 

As a PT tank I either have attacks that hit for around 1k before crits, or I have channelled attacks that end up hitting for around 3k but never do, since nobody's going to stick around for the duration of flamethrower/DFA.

 

And this would be perfectly fine. Except for the fact that my survivability is gimped by defensive stats that are mainly ignored by all but two classes.

[anwg]

Not in the patch notes, combust is 2.5/5% on the PTS

[Aqualous]

As someone who plays ST Powertech with Tank gear I was hoping for some survivability changes, like others have mentioned.

 

The changes to damage are disappointing, I would have liked to still hit for the same amount. But I will have to try out the changes to see the difference in utility between a weaker RP versus an AoE slow and free Flame Sweep.

 

Conjecture here: I wonder if Bioware is predicting that Tankasin nerfs will bring the level of tanking down enough that we are more equal, such that they would not have to buff Shield Tech.

 

I would still like to see some changes in the effectiveness of shields. Maybe instead of shielding all abilities, just increase the number of abilities that can be shielded. Give us the ability to shield all attacks except finishing moves (below 30% HP) or crowd control effects.