How did it come to this?

[Closetalker]

Did you go to the Aztek forums and demand free driving time until they could redesign the car for you? Did you demand that you get a free transfer to a different car because you didn't like the one you got? Did you demand that the company constantly keep you informed of all the measures they were taking to remedy the current state of the poorly designed SUV? If you did, then what came of your efforts? If not, then why not? Seems like most people just said "Oh, not for me" and moved on.

 

And just to clarify my point a little bit... A car is a major investment in terms of money involved and in terms of how much of your life will revolve around the car once you purchase it. Comparatively speaking, a game is a very small investment in a leisure activity that probalby isn't something that your life revolves around. What's more, many people probably spend more time driving their car than they spend playing games. So why the need to make such a huge issue about a $60 game if you don't feel the same need to make an issue out of an expensive car? Just admit that it isn't for you and move on.

 

When you say people are making such a huge issue over this game....what you're talking about is making a post expressing their dissatisfaction on a video game forum.

 

Yea, what a CRAZY overreaction.

[mattgyver]

Let me guess. You would also like "deep" and "intricate" space combat along with a overhaul of the crafting system and with the addition of that toilet cleaning class I vouched for back in SWG?

 

Did I miss anything?*

 

Yes yes. We all understand those features you miss from SWG and I also like the thought of how nice some worlds would be with a day and night feature, but overall some planets have weather where it wouldn't make sense to be standing outside talking to them as if the weather didn't bother them or outside while you're out exploring. Tatooine is a good example because of its frequent sandstorms. It would be pretty odd talking to a npc with the sound of a raging sandstorm around us blocking out the sound.

 

Though weather may be subject day and night would be a nice addition but it isn't such a vital thing as you make it out to be in your post.

 

*Rhetorical. Please, don't bury me beneath your griefs for SWG.

 

lol no I think you got it all. I would be ok with some awkwardness in a cutscene if it brings more life to the world. Cutscenes are fine, but I would rather interact with the world more. Also interacting with mobs and players in a more dynamic environment makes that more fun in general.

A lot of people play resource management games, so I don't see the sin in having mundane activities in the game for those who want them. I would think it would serve to make you look that much more heroic as you pew pew 24/7.

Edited June 4, 2012 by mattgyver

[Lonarandir]

Add an achievement system (like LotRO) where you can gain stat bonuses and/or maybe commendations or stuff for grind-ish stuff (kill 300 X, see all X areas in X location). Those that have played LotRO can expound on this perhaps. I'm not for sake of space.

 

This is grinding at its worse IMO.

 

I quit SWtoR and returned to LotRO, and even though I hate this grind, it at least gives you something to do and a reason for doing it. A lot of people call it pointless since the buffs you can get are very minor, but since there are 100's of buffs, and most are accumulative, then the sum total is quite a lot.

 

Unfortunately I am not sure that this would work well in SWtOR. I do not think there is enough variety in mobs, as each planet seems to be dominated by one or two particular mobs. However, LotRO also has location discovery grinds that encourages you to go out and explore the maps. SWtOR just does not encourage you to explore.

 

I have always considered LotRO a pretty linear game, but SWtOR has made me re-think that.

 

Whlie LotRO may lack what many people consider meaningful PvP, the number of dungeons and skirmishes you can run, and the fact that they are somewhat scalable makes for a more engaging game. For those who do not know what skirmishes are, they are similar to dungeons, but are more like objective based mini-games vs the enviroment. They can be played solo upto a full 24 man team.

Edited June 4, 2012 by Lonarandir

[Goretzu]

SWTOR is doing fine functionality wise. The problem is with the impatient twits who forget that WoW didnt have character transfers or a dungeon finder when it launched yet they expect SWTOR to have all of WoWs features at launch.

 

WoW didn't need character transfers or a dungeon finder to be fair (pretty sure it did have some LFG system though, because EQ1 had one by then).

 

SWTORs issues though aren't that it didn't have server transfers (if it grew like WoW or EQ1 it wouldnh't have needed them) or a dungeon finder, it's that the game has significant core flaws that really do need to be fixed ASAP.

[gurugeorge]

Once again this defense is presented. It's not 2005 or 2004... You cannot compare the launch of TOR to WoW in this way because the game market was very different when WoW launched. The MMO market especially was different then.

 

Unfortunately, the difficulty of making an MMO hasn't changed much over the intervening years.

 

So basically, the MMO genre is now ****ed, because a huge part of the playerbase has absurd expectations based on a fully-developed game, so they'll never be happy with ANY MMO THAT COMES OUT EVER. Just watch what happens to TSW and GW2.

 

Developers can't innovate because an innovative game isn't going to be enough like WoW.

 

And they can't make WoW clones because they're too much like WoW.

 

The onlyt possible escape route is the sandbox - but what AAA developer is going to have the guts to release a sandbox nowadays? (Well, possibly Blizzard ... ? I've seen some vague rumours that Titan will be a sandbox, but who knows.)

[Goretzu]

I have always considered LotRO a pretty linear game, but SWtOR has made me re-think that.

 

This is one of the core flaws with SWTOR it's is probably the most linear and static MMORPG that's ever existed, as few changes to help change that would go a looooooooong way in improving SWTOR.

[LilSaihah]

So basically, the MMO genre is now ****ed, because a huge part of the playerbase has absurd expectations based on a fully-developed game, so they'll never be happy with ANY MMO THAT COMES OUT EVER. Just watch what happens to TSW and GW2.

 

Developers can't innovate because an innovative game isn't going to be enough like WoW.

 

And they can't make WoW clones because they're too much like WoW.

 

The onlyt possible escape route is the sandbox - but what AAA developer is going to have the guts to release a sandbox nowadays? (Well, possibly Blizzard ... ? I've seen some vague rumours that Titan will be a sandbox, but who knows.)

 

That's not really fair. TOR was in a great position to slam big daddy WoW down a peg if it had carried through on its ideas rather than middled. Everything was already in place, and even an amateur developer like me can see where natural evolutions can be made for the game's systems. Plenty of the game's systems dip their toes into the waters of innovation. Unfortunately, TOR fell short in both base execution (it's simply not as crisp a game, or as bug-free, as WoW) and their ideas (aforemented toe-dipping rather than actually carrying through with the natural evolutions of their ideas).

 

Everything is (or was) in place for TOR to come into its own; it just needs a good, hard push to get it done. It needs some content/system patches which hit like trucks and really carry through on the system evolutions, it needs a population solution, and it needs developers with the vision and power to drive them home.

[DiabloDoom]

Unfortunately, the difficulty of making an MMO hasn't changed much over the intervening years.

 

So basically, the MMO genre is now ****ed, because a huge part of the playerbase has absurd expectations based on a fully-developed game, so they'll never be happy with ANY MMO THAT COMES OUT EVER. Just watch what happens to TSW and GW2.

 

Developers can't innovate because an innovative game isn't going to be enough like WoW.

 

And they can't make WoW clones because they're too much like WoW.

 

The onlyt possible escape route is the sandbox - but what AAA developer is going to have the guts to release a sandbox nowadays? (Well, possibly Blizzard ... ? I've seen some vague rumours that Titan will be a sandbox, but who knows.)

There's no use m8, they just don't get it.

[Ashlian]

That's pretty funny because the exact same thing can be said about a lot of gamers. They think that because they don't like a game or some aspects of a game, they know more about what a developer "should have done" than the developers themselves.

 

The biggest "problem" with SWTOR is it's maturity (how long it's been around). If people would get over their incessant need for instant gratification and let the game have time to mature, most of the problems would fix themselves. But since nearly everyone posting threads like this wants the game to be perfect RIGHT NOW, which can't possibly happen, they decide to say the game is a failure and proclaim that they are abandoning the sinking ship before it's too late.

 

The best thing that Bioware can do is to take their time and fix things right even if it takes too long for all the folks who need instant gratification. Odds are that those folks won't get their gratification from the other games they're looking forward to, either. And by that time, maybe SWTOR will have evolved into something that can keep them busy for a couple more months, until their need for something new and exciting kicks in and makes them leave again.

 

THIS

[GrandMike]

and it needs developers with the vision and power to drive them home.

 

This is where it falls totally short.

 

I mean, if game was innovative, but missing, at least people would hope and wait for implementation of stuff.

 

But SWTOR is such uninspired, generic and medicore game, and it didnt show any improvement over 3 patches now. What we should just expect them to turn 180 and start putting innovative and exciting stuff all of a sudden? Very, very unlikely.

 

Just another one in string of underwhelming things.

[LilSaihah]

This is where it falls totally short.

 

I mean, if game was innovative, but missing, at least people would hope and wait for implementation of stuff.

 

But SWTOR is such uninspired, generic and medicore game, and it didnt show any improvement over 3 patches now. What we should just expect them to turn 180 and start putting innovative and exciting stuff all of a sudden? Very, very unlikely.

 

Just another one in string of underwhelming things.

 

My optimistic side is hoping that the recent restructuring at Bioware has put someone with some fire in their blood in a place where they can make a real impact on the game. My pragmatic and pessimistic sides agree with you.

Edited June 4, 2012 by LilSaihah

[Kyse]

remember alot of people are coming from other games that to them are perfect so they think all games that come out should also be perfect for if game makers worked to please one then another still wouldnt be please and quitting a game cuz it dont got what u need is just lame of people all they doing is killing a good game by quitting cuz what they want isnt here yet maybe they should do some reading and look up what other games had when they first came out lol

[Darka]

For me its not so much how it came to this, its where to from here?

I suspect a lot of original plan and idea has gone under heavy discussion in recent months,

[GrandMike]

My optimistic side is hoping that the recent restructuring at Bioware has put someone with some fire in their blood in a place where they can make a real impact on the game. My pragmatic and pessimistic sides agree with you.

 

Thing is...no people in charge who make these kind of decisions were laid off. Its quite telling of direction (or more of non-changing direction) of the game.

 

In the end, you can be most genious developer, if peeps in charge tell you to scrap all fun stuff and keep making generic and medicore stuff...it doesnt matter.

 

remember alot of people are coming from other games that to them are perfect so they think all games that come out should also be perfect for if game makers worked to please one then another still wouldnt be please and quitting a game cuz it dont got what u need is just lame of people all they doing is killing a good game by quitting cuz what they want isnt here yet maybe they should do some reading and look up what other games had when they first came out lol

 

Sooo, you would buy Ford T equivalent today, just because thats how it started and thats "all there was in the start". Riiiiiiiiiiiiight.

 

For me its not so much how it came to this, its where to from here?

I suspect a lot of original plan and idea has gone under heavy discussion in recent months,

 

From what it seems a lot of original plan was abandoned in favor of total WoW copy and is now discusse should they go BACK to their original plan because just blatantly copying WoW failed miserably. Though question is is there time for that before SWTOR goes to skeleton crew maintainance mode due to results.

Edited June 4, 2012 by GrandMike

[Fdzzaigl]

Many of the exciting things the game set out to do, turned out to be not so exciting in the end:

 

- Ilum & Outlaw's Den

Incredibly static and uninteresting objectives in Ilum, complete lack of mechanics to allow the "losing side" to fight back and wrestle themselves back into the game (or they didn't work, see cannons). Complete lack of tangible reward.

BioWare implemented "mercenary commendations" for open world pvp, but these were never even earned through open world pvp, because you couldn't even get them in Ilum and Outlaw's Den only had 2-3 chests with a minimal amount in them, on an hour long respawn timer + the zone lacks any other incentive to go there and isn't even designed in an interesting way.

Now we have ranked commendations that replace merc ones, and we see the exact same thing: we can't even earn them yet and have to grind warzones to convert regular comms.

Mind blowing.

 

- Orange modable gear:

Game starts out, orange gear is useful only during level-up. Now they start crawling back and make orange gear potentially the best in slot.

BUT, only if you grind the newest gear available in the gear and THEN grind the orange gear together. So MORE grind for your dear players.

INSTEAD of just following the logical course of action and making orange gear a good way of having people choose how they look, with some crafting involved.

There is also a complete lack of actual sets of the stuff, new sets that had been promised simply aren't there, and orange models for boots / gloves / head are completely missing at lower levels.

How hard is it to make an alternative "empty shell" version of every set in the game?

 

- Reverse-engineering gear and an important role for crafting

Any other craft than BioChem / possibly cybertech started out as completely pointless. Raid schematics dropped for the other crafts were almost all BoP, AND STILL ARE. Some new life was given to the other crafts with augments, but as more and more people get the required augments, they have no need for any more of them.

Also: see lack of orange gear above.

 

- Epic worlds and enemies

TOR's level-up is the best there is on the market, but there is no reason whatsoever to return to a world as a high level player. Bonus series on each world are just pointless, because you'll have outleveled the planet by the time you finish the regular world quest.

Either leveling should have been way slower, or the bonus series should have been saved for level 50 as a way to gain entry gear.

Daily events on each planet could have actually formed a way to return to them (like the interesting, though irritating, rakghoul plague).

ALSO, mind blowingly so, players are prevented from fighting enemy players on PVP servers by rows of champion guards and questing areas that are miles away from the other faction's.

 

- Legacy

Turns out to be an unimaginative system with boosts that you will need to grind at 50 and stuff that is pretty much useless for your actual alts.

 

I can simply not understand some of the strangely idiotic quirks that came with each of these ideas. Every idea was good in itself, but it simply turned out that BW wasn't willing or able to go all the way.

In general, their whole approach to this game preaches an unwillingness to let the player choose how he / she wants to play the game.

 

Furthermore, there is a total lack of daring design choices in the future. Look at Rift: that game tanked pretty soon after launch as well. But they implemented free transfers immediately, got open world PvP events going and are now thinking of a radical new concept for an open PvP style zone with 3-way fights.

They weren't successful either, but they're trying to do new things that are enticing.

 

I totally miss this in TOR atm.

 

In fact, in recent Q&A's, I STILL see BioWare representatives claiming that a new player is supposed to go through lvl 50 normal modes to get blues --> hardmodes for Tionese / Columi --> raids when they first hit 50.

While this has NEVER happened.

People only ever did the hardmodes for the columi drops at the end, and stuck with champion / centurion PvP gear for the rest, then they immediately went to raids.

Now that battlemaster is easy to get, people just skip hardmodes and normal mode raids altogether.

Edited June 4, 2012 by Fdzzaigl

[TheAincient]

For me its not so much how it came to this, its where to from here?

I suspect a lot of original plan and idea has gone under heavy discussion in recent months,

 

Agreed.

I really hope the next memo design team realise that it is the community that makes an mmo, otherwise you end up with a single player game where there are other people around, if you see what I mean.

 

For me it comes down to getting the right mixture of theme park and sandbox, concentrating on one or the other seems to lead to trouble.

[Mrcheezle]

It will only get worse. Incapable Hero engine + 1/2 the dev team laid off = MAINTANENCE MODE. R.I.P "Tor"tanic. Edited June 4, 2012 by Mrcheezle

[Ashlian]

What mythical uber-patient audience was the game made to appeal to? If what you say is true then the character of the consumer should have been well known from the begining of development, unless your premise is that all of the impatient ADHD types suddenly came into being around 12-20-11 and became the lost subs of this game.

 

I dunno.....the same mythical uber-patient audience that suffered through the launch year of EQ2, maybe? I mean, I distinctly remember this huge influx of people who started EQ2, then abandoned it like we're seeing here when it proved to have serious flaws at launch.....yet more than enough people stuck with it for it to continue as a P2P game for seven years. Despite the fact the developers made the seriously wrong decision to develop the game with giant single core processors in mind, rather than foreseeing that multi core processors would be the wave of the future. It took a long, long time for EQ2 to be optimized to run at all well for multi core processors, and it had some stellar issues at launch with graphical lag. We won't talk about the fubar spell and crafting systems they had to completely revamp. Sound at all familiar? I guess they should have gone F2P six months after launch.....not hung on for six more years of expacs.

[MajikMyst]

I thnk the only thing that needs a major overhaul is us, the community.. Bioware and the game are fine.. Way to many people QQ about this or that and saying that they will quit if it isn't fixed.. But never give thought one on actually how to fix the issue being complained about.. QQ about the server population but mysteriously forget about the 100s of threads we created to QQ about long queue times.. Not knowing how many people would sub after early release and free time, bioware did the only thing they could.. Add more servers.. This circumstance is just as much our fault as it is theirs.. We complained instead of showing some patience..

 

Bioware has been awsome at getting bug fixes to us, and yet we QQ about the down times to implement them..

 

But this is just how I see the current situation and how I feel.. Right or wrong, it is my view of it..

Edited June 4, 2012 by MajikMyst

[GrandMike]

I thnk the only thing that needs a major overhaul is us, the community.. Bioware and the game are fine.. Way to many people QQ about this or that and saying that they will quit if it isn't fixed.. But never give thought one on actually how to fix the issue being complained about.. QQ about the server population but mysteriously forget about the 100s of threads we created to QQ about long queue times.. Not knowing how many people would sub after early release and free time, bioware did the only thing they could.. Add more servers.. This circumstance is just as much our fault as it is theirs.. We complained instead of showing some patience..

 

Bioware has been awsome at getting bug fixes to us, and yet we QQ about the down times to implement them..

 

But this is just how I see the current situation and how I feel.. Right or wrong, it is my view of it..

 

Thtas not the problem because even servers thata were packed at release and had long waiting times are dead.

 

If your theory was right, those servers would still be alive and kicking.

[MajikMyst]

It will only get worse. Incapable Hero engine + 1/2 the dev team laid off = MAINTANENCE MODE. R.I.P "Tor"tanic.

 

I fail to see how you can make this statement?? Are you an expert on the hero engine?? Do you have any clue what modifications have been made to the engine for this game?? What knowlege do you have the hero engine that makes you qualified to make that statement?? Are you a progremmer?? What gaming company do you work for?? What experience do you have with the hero engine??

 

How do you know 1/2 the dev team was laid off??

 

Seriously.. I would like to know where you get your info on both accounts.. The engine and the recent restructering at Bioware..

 

How will it get worse??

[Jandi]

 

Seriously.. I would like to know where you get your info on both accounts.. The engine and the recent restructering at Bioware..

 

From thin air like 9/10 posts in the forum.

[MajikMyst]

Thtas not the problem because even servers thata were packed at release and had long waiting times are dead.

 

If your theory was right, those servers would still be alive and kicking.

 

Actually that isn't true at all either.. Server capacity has already been doubled since launch so all servers are going to show a decrease in population without losing a single player.. Server capacity according to the dev blog is going to doubled here again soon.. So again they are going to show a decrease without a single player lost.. This is why you can't make assumptions based on Light server status..

 

My servers population hasn't change since launch and it is one of the original servers.. I am sure we lost a few here and there and probably picked up a few here and there as well.. But over all it is healthy.. Yes, we are lightly populated according the server status.. There are plenty guilds, we are all raiding, no problems recruiting new folks, and this is the republic side.. Like most we are also emperial heavy.. But there are tons of stuff on the GTN for both sides.. I know as I shop them both..

 

So if you are judging population based on what the server status things says.. That is your first mistake.. Go to Torstatus.. There has been no big dramatic drop in population since launch.. Yes.. We have lost some folks obviously.. But I don't think servers are as dead as some people like you to think..

Edited June 4, 2012 by MajikMyst

[GrandMike]

Actually that isn't true at all either.. Server capacity has already been doubled since launch so all servers are going to show a decrease in population without losing a single player.. Server capacity according to the dev blog is going to doubled here again soon.. So again they are going to show a decrease without a single player lost.. This is why you can't make assumptions based on Light server status..

 

My servers population hasn't change since launch and it is one of the original servers.. I am sure we lost a few here and there and probably picked up a few here and there as well.. But over all it is healthy.. Yes, we are lightly populated according the server status.. There are plenty guilds, we are all raiding, no problems recruiting new folks, and this is the republic side..

 

It sure didnt increase form 1+ hour long queues to going perma light.

 

And what does server capacity has to do with fact that there were 200+ people on the fleet and now 40-50?

 

You really claim these things?

 

And nobody makes assumptions anout "light", plenty of people counted what "light" means in terms of players, feel free to look around the forums for that particular info.

Edited June 4, 2012 by GrandMike

[syntxerr]

I fail to see how you can make this statement?? Are you an expert on the hero engine?? Do you have any clue what modifications have been made to the engine for this game?? What knowlege do you have the hero engine that makes you qualified to make that statement?? Are you a progremmer?? What gaming company do you work for?? What experience do you have with the hero engine??

 

How do you know 1/2 the dev team was laid off??

 

Seriously.. I would like to know where you get your info on both accounts.. The engine and the recent restructering at Bioware..

 

How will it get worse??

 

You don't need to be any recognized expert to come to the conclusion that the Hero engine is garbage. See how they have been struggling with it from the start, how Ilum was a catastrophe and they were trying to improve performance with deperate attempts like removing laser beams. Heck, even the fleets, which are basically just small closed areas had performance problems.

 

Compare this to other games based on other engines. Tera on Unreal Engine three for example, where the graphics are not only more detailed, where you can see much further and where rendering a large amount of characters on the screen doesn't result in terrible frame rates.

 

I'd even go as far as saying that the Hero Engine will be the major reason for why we won't see an Ilum replacement anytime soon.