Hard Talk On Gamebreaker TV(The Republic: Doomed To Fail)

[blur]

That being said if Arena Net sticks to the current UI construction of

, I will likely not play.

 

That's because you've been conditioned to think that way by existing games. Don't feel bad about it, that's just how it is. You've played games that have given you 10 zillion options and you feel pretty awesome when you master a large number of them and know how they all link together. I get that.

 

However, have you ever heard the term, "Easy to learn, difficult to master..."? Because that sums up GW and GW2. You have a limited number of slots DELIBERATELY so you actually have to get MORE strategic and MORE creative than if you have a zillion at your fingertips. It's a totally different mindset and one you're not conditioned to. When you have to play a game that way, however, you will get what I mean.

 

And, by the way, that doesn't mean games with a zillion options are wrong... but nor does it mean a game like GW2 isn't worth your time. There's a ton of depth and complexity and strategy that needs to be mastered to play it well. It's actually a LOT harder than TOR, WoW, etc. It's genuinely challenging.

Edited June 2, 2012 by blur

[Evironrage]

I can definitely see where you're coming from, however the decision to limit abilities might as well have been inspired by games like SWTOR which have you using so many abilities (and hotbars full of ones you don't use) that it becomes more of an exercise in pressing buttons at the right time (managing cooldowns) as opposed to thinking about the action. To off-set this, they tied half of your current skills to your weapon, which you can swap on the fly--right in the middle of combat--and change up the dynamic. What you're left with is a truly visceral experience that requires some serious knowledge about the other classes and how best to use what weapons--and when--to defeat your enemies.

 

In the end, I much prefer GW2's streamlining of skills while still providing player choice; the other half of your skills are completely customizable through talent trees that truly offer the player meaningful customization over how they play.

That is fine, I would just prefer the dynamics you are discussing coupled with the SWTOR overload. For me it is merely just PR spin to suggest Arena Net's decision is anything but limiting.

Forgive the bold if it is over the top; I just like the emphasize that it is my opinion, not fact, or me speaking for the MMO nation at large. Forums can get goofy at times

Edited June 2, 2012 by Evironrage

[Lt_Latency]

That's because you've been conditioned to think that way by existing games. Don't feel bad about it, that's just how it is. You've played games that have given you 10 zillion options and you feel pretty awesome when you master a large number of them and know how they all link together. I get that.

 

However, have you ever heard the term, "Easy to learn, difficult to master..."? Because that sums up GW and GW2. You have a limited number of slots DELIBERATELY so you actually have to get MORE strategic and MORE creative than if you have a zillion at your fingertips. It's a totally different mindset and one you're not conditioned to. When you have to play a game that way, however, you will get what I mean.

 

And, by the way, that doesn't mean games with a zillion options are wrong... but nor does it mean a game like GW2 isn't worth your time. There's a ton of depth and complexity and strategy that needs to be mastered to play it well. It's actually a LOT harder than TOR, WoW, etc. It's genuinely challenging.

 

 

I agree with him as well. 12 or 13 abilities seems low to me as well. 20 sounds more about right to me.

 

My biggest grip with GW1 was the lack of abilites i could have at one time

[blur]

I agree with him as well. 12 or 13 abilities seems low to me as well. 20 sounds more about right to me.

 

My biggest grip with GW1 was the lack of abilites i could have at one time

 

But that's the whole POINT.

 

Until you get your head around why the game is designed that way, you won't be playing the game effectively or correctly. You need to un-learn what other MMOs have conditioned in you. Seriously.

Edited June 2, 2012 by blur

[Lt_Latency]

But that's the whole POINT.

 

Until you get your head around why the game is designed that way, you won't be playing the game effectively or correctly. You need to un-learn what other MMOs have conditioned in you. Seriously.

 

I know why it's still boring. They set it that way so you can pick what you want to use and try and combine them with your group.

 

It's much more fun to pick them on the fly and have more choice while you are actual playing the game.

[blur]

I know why it's still boring. They set it that way so you can pick what you want to use and try and combine them with your group.

 

The dynamic is different in GW2, however, because there are no NPC henchmen/heroes to use.

 

So you still have to be strategic with skills, but in a totally different way.

[Lt_Latency]

The dynamic is different in GW2, however, because there are no NPC henchmen/heroes to use.

 

So you still have to be strategic with skills, but in a totally different way.

 

I know, I am talking about GW1 specifically. I have never played gw2. The amount of abilites we got in GW1 was my biggest issue with the game.

 

Maybe the extra abilites in GW2 will be enough, I haven;t played that one yet but it's still a concern for me until I try it.

[Evironrage]

That's because you've been conditioned to think that way by existing games. Don't feel bad about it, that's just how it is. You've played games that have given you 10 zillion options and you feel pretty awesome when you master a large number of them and know how they all link together. I get that.

 

However, have you ever heard the term, "Easy to learn, difficult to master..."? Because that sums up GW and GW2. You have a limited number of slots DELIBERATELY so you actually have to get MORE strategic and MORE creative than if you have a zillion at your fingertips. It's a totally different mindset and one you're not conditioned to. When you have to play a game that way, however, you will get what I mean.

 

And, by the way, that doesn't mean games with a zillion options are wrong... but nor does it mean a game like GW2 isn't worth your time. There's a ton of depth and complexity and strategy that needs to be mastered to play it well. It's actually a LOT harder than TOR, WoW, etc. It's genuinely challenging.

 

Not that I have a real interest in having this debate, but how does less equal more here?

On the fly combat in conjunction with players comboing off each others abilities' is not a bad idea in theory, but limiting abilities available at any given time is ridiculous.

I love the idea of having specific abilities tied to weapons and to races, however once the "skills" are "learned" they should be readily available for use.

FFXIV (terrible game imho) had the right idea here. Allow a player to be any "class" they want at any given time and certain abilities were weapon specific. Additionally give the player the option to add skills they had learned from another weapon "job" (I think that is what they called them) and customize you hotbar any way you like.

Their fatal UI flaw was the same as it is in GW2 (barring the combos which is a spectacular idea). They had a limit of ~8 abilities all of which you could choose.

Lack of choice is simply that and nothing more. The GW2 system is not a bad idea, but it requires expansion before I will give it a shot. If they don't no biggy. One less player won't kill an F2P.

Edited June 2, 2012 by Evironrage

[blur]

You've also got to take into account you can have different weapon sets and as you switch them in and out, your abilities change, too.

[blur]

Not that I have a real interest in having this debate, but how does less equal more here? You are merely uttering precisely what I was saying early. PR spin.

 

How is it PR spin? It's a very simple to grasp concept if you open your mind to it.

 

Imagine you're going on a special ops mission, for example, and someone throws open the door to a well stocked armoury and says, "Take whatever you want... and as much as you want..."

 

Now imagine the same scenario and that person says, "You can take two items..."

 

Which two items do you take? Previously, it was easy... you took a sniper rifle, an SMG, a bazooka, an assault rifle, some knives, some grenades... but now you can only take two items? Wow, that needs some careful thinking and planning.

 

Same in any game where you can only load up a limited number of abilities.

[Dezzi]

Not that I have a real interest in having this debate, but how does less equal more here? You are merely uttering precisely what I was saying earlier. PR spin.

On the fly combat in conjunction with players comboing off each others abilities' is not a bad idea in theory, but limiting abilities available at any given time is ridiculous.

I love the idea of having specific abilities tied to weapons and to races, however once the "skills" are "learned" they should be readily available for use.

FFXIV (terrible game imho) had the right idea here. Allow a player to be any "class" they want at any given time and certain abilities were weapon specific. Additionally give the player the option to add skills they had learned from another weapon "job" (I think that is what they called them) and customize you hotbar any way you like.

Their fatal UI flaw was the same as it is in GW2 (barring the combos which is a spectacular idea). They had a limit of ~8 abilities all of which you could choose.

Lack of choice is simply that and nothing more. The GW2 system is not a bad idea, but it requires expansion before I will give it a shot. If not no biggy one less player won't kill an F2P.

 

It's not PR spin. It was a conscious decision by the developers to promote strategic gameplay and get people to look up from their hotbars and actually see the game.

 

I've played it. It works exactly as it's intended to; once I've got a feel for a weapon and I settle on my special skills, I can run out into the world having confidence in my ability. Your experience--and your ability--are not contingent on watching cooldowns open up, but rather knowing which skills work great against which opponents.

 

I'm with the other guy here: GW2 is taking a new stance that is going to require some commitment from players to unlearn what they've been conditioned to expect. It's very refreshing.

[Evironrage]

How is it PR spin? It's a very simple to grasp concept if you open your mind to it.

 

Imagine you're going on a special ops mission, for example, and someone throws open the door to a well stocked armoury and says, "Take whatever you want... and as much as you want..."

 

Now imagine the same scenario and that person says, "You can take two items..."

 

Which two items do you take? Previously, it was easy... you took a sniper rifle, an SMG, a bazooka, an assault rifle, some knives, some grenades... but now you can only take two items? Wow, that needs some careful thinking and planning.

 

Same in any game where you can only load up a limited number of abilities.

I removed that comment because I was attempting to remove the personal attack there

[Mallorik]

Content, yes it's lacking. Features...not so much. I think they kept it lean on content that won't be missed as much as features people want. And they did it specifically to get the features in, because something always has to give for launch. It's impossible to have it all at launch. Can always add content later.

 

Im so proud of you!

Edited June 2, 2012 by Mallorik

[kilosoldier]

GW 2 is shaping up to be an equal let down to what SWTOR was.

 

Dont let the hype by many of the GW fanboi's fool you. There is a lot of negative reverberations around the MMO community about GW 2. ITs a lot like SWTOR were it could do no wrong and was going to be "the game" but as it crept closer to launch the questions started rising and issues were slowly talked about....well the same exact thing is happening with GW 2.

[Dezzi]

GW 2 is shaping up to be an equal let down to what SWTOR was.

 

Dont let the hype by many of the GW fanboi's fool you. There is a lot of negative reverberations around the MMO community about GW 2. ITs a lot like SWTOR were it could do no wrong and was going to be "the game" but as it crept closer to launch the questions started rising and issues were slowly talked about....well the same exact thing is happening with GW 2.

 

You mind sharing where you're hearing this? I've read nothing but glowing reviews, despite looking for objective opinions. If there's as much anxiety over GW2 are you're leading us to believe, it'd be easier to find.

 

One doesn't have to travel very far to find negative press about SWTOR.

Edited June 2, 2012 by Dezzi

[Lt_Latency]

How is it PR spin? It's a very simple to grasp concept if you open your mind to it.

 

Imagine you're going on a special ops mission, for example, and someone throws open the door to a well stocked armoury and says, "Take whatever you want... and as much as you want..."

 

Now imagine the same scenario and that person says, "You can take two items..."

 

Which two items do you take? Previously, it was easy... you took a sniper rifle, an SMG, a bazooka, an assault rifle, some knives, some grenades... but now you can only take two items? Wow, that needs some careful thinking and planning.

 

Same in any game where you can only load up a limited number of abilities.

 

 

Again the counter to this is.

 

In Comabat, Which abilities should I be using and on who during combat. Fast thinking and picking the right ones is part of the fun, having alot more options when you have 20 to pick from vs 8 during the actual battle leads to you have to make alot more choice while you actual play not just at the start.

 

It's the same reason I'm not a big fan of Diabllo. Spamming frost orb all day get old quick when you only have a couple skill to use a time..

Edited June 2, 2012 by Lt_Latency

[blur]

GW 2 is shaping up to be an equal let down to what SWTOR was.

 

Dont let the hype by many of the GW fanboi's fool you. There is a lot of negative reverberations around the MMO community about GW 2. ITs a lot like SWTOR were it could do no wrong and was going to be "the game" but as it crept closer to launch the questions started rising and issues were slowly talked about....well the same exact thing is happening with GW 2.

 

LOL, you realise a lot of us have been playing it in beta already, right?

 

GW2 in beta is better than TOR is now. Seriously.

[Evironrage]

It's not PR spin. It was a conscious decision by the developers to promote strategic gameplay and get people to look up from their hotbars and actually see the game.

 

I've played it. It works exactly as it's intended to; once I've got a feel for a weapon and I settle on my special skills, I can run out into the world having confidence in my ability. Your experience--and your ability--are not contingent on watching cooldowns open up, but rather knowing which skills work great against which opponents.

 

I'm with the other guy here: GW2 is taking a new stance that is going to require some commitment from players to unlearn what they've been conditioned to expect. It's very refreshing.

I am happy for those that are excited about GW2's position they are taking here. I am not: end of story. I would prefer an AoC combat system, but that was here on gone.

[blur]

Fast thinking and picking the right ones is part of the fun, having alot more options when you have 20 to pick from vs 8 during the actual battle leads to you have to make alot more choice while you actual play not just at the start.

 

Yes, I still don't think you're grasping the whole picture, and that's simply because you haven't played it. If you had played it, and experienced switching between weapon sets, with different abilities for each, based on different enemies being faced, I think you'd see what I'm saying a little differently.

[dalekjs]

You mind sharing where you're hearing this? I've read nothing but glowing reviews, despite looking for objective opinions. If there's as much anxiety over GW2 are you're leading us to believe, it'd be easier to find.

 

One doesn't have to travel very far to find negative press about SWTOR.

 

Same. I go to the GW2 subreddit, and the most negative thing there is a list of QoL improvements that players would like implemented at launch.

[kilosoldier]

You mind sharing where you're hearing this? I've read nothing but glowing reviews, despite looking for objective opinions. If there's as much anxiety over GW2 are you're leading us to believe, it'd be easier to find.

 

One doesn't have to travel very far to find negative press about SWTOR.

 

Mainstream press was "Glowing" about SWTOR as well and thats my point.

 

There is PLENTY out there in the blogosphere warning about GW 2. Just like there was about SWTOR>

 

Mainly_

 

Combat sucks

The dynamic content is not as promised

Arena Net gets a rash when the topic of "End Game" gets brought up.

But the biggest thing is people are saying its "Missing" an MMO feel and features. Sound familiar? Oh yea.

 

I dont really care as I think GW 2 will be garbage on the scale of SWTOR

Edited June 2, 2012 by kilosoldier

[Lt_Latency]

Yes, I still don't think you're grasping the whole picture, and that's simply because you haven't played it. If you had played it, and experienced switching between weapon sets, with different abilities for each, based on different enemies being faced, I think you'd see what I'm saying a little differently.

 

How does not having even MORE abilites not give you more choice during combat???

 

You can say you need to think with the abilites you have but if you got more how would you not have to think even more because now you have more choice.

 

example

 

Say i get three attack

 

Single target, one that hits 2 targets and a AoE.

 

I would rather have all 3 and pick when to use them best in battle. Then be stuck with one I spam it in all cases because i have other choice/

Edited June 2, 2012 by Lt_Latency

[blur]

How does not having even MORE abilites not give you more choice during combat???

 

You can say you need to think with the abilites you have but if you got more how would you not have to think even more because now you have more choice.

 

I can't keep arguing this with you because you just don't get it.

 

I have tried to be kind about it, but I need to be plainer. Here goes:

 

You have played too many games like WoW and can't get your head around anything that's different.

 

I'm sorry about that. I really am, truly, in a non-sarcastic way, sorry. Because I think GW2 is amazing.

 

And before you go jamming the reply button, just STOP and ask yourself, why would I be trying to explain this to you if there wasn't a reason why this was the case?

 

I have played GW2. You haven't. Give me some credit that I am trying my best to explain it to you, even if you don't get it.

Edited June 2, 2012 by blur

[Dezzi]

Mainstream press was "Glowing" about SWTOR as well and thats my point.

 

There is PLENTY out there in the blogosphere warning about GW 2. Just like there was about SWTOR>

 

Mainly_

 

Combat sucks

The dynamic content is not as promised

Arena Net gets a rash when the topic of "End Game" gets brought up.

 

I dont really care as I think GW 2 will be garbage on the scale of SWTOR

 

There's a big difference between pre-launch SWTOR and pre-launch GW2 press and that's the NDA. GW2 lifted the NDA for the public beta weekends, so people are getting the word out and sharing their experiences--which are then matched up against the gaming press. SWTOR was developed in a locked room guarded by cerberus, but the PR machine at BioWare and EA kept at it so players were only left with hype that didn't come from players, but by people invested in the success of the game.

 

So what's my point? SWTOR got to hide behind the gaming media while the verdict is as plain as day for GW2. If the game sucked, I would have told you. Instead, I've thoroughly enjoyed it and can say that the game media has it right. It will live up to a lot of the expectations and will fail on others. SWTOR failed on most, but that isn't to say it can't redeem itself and make good on many of the PR "promises."

[Lt_Latency]

I can't keep arguing this with you because you just don't get it.

 

I have tried to be kind about it, but I need to be plainer. Here goes:

 

You have played too many games like WoW and can't get your head around anything that's different.

 

I'm sorry about that. I really am, truly, in a non-sarcastic way, sorry. Because I think GW2 is amazing.

 

I played GW for a long time.

 

example

 

Say i get three attack

 

Single target, one that hits 2 targets and a AoE.

 

I would rather have all 3 and pick when to use them best in battle. Then be stuck with one I spam it in all cases because i have no other choice because that was the one I picked at the start.

Edited June 2, 2012 by Lt_Latency