The reason people make premades

[criminalheretic]

Assuming there is no gear/skill/class advantage (those aren't intrinsic property of a premade), if you have exactly equal players on both side but one is on Vent and the other is not, the only advantage the premade would have is trying to get the first knockout goal in Huttball because a lot of players give up if the enemy score first. This is the only significant edge the premade will have in all WZs.

 

In Alderran there's only two opening strat: side/side and side/middle, and if you open with a safe side/middle you can always see a side/side coming and have people veer off from the middle to stop it. At that point the game turns into a straight up brawl with the side better at killing the other side wins. Reaslitcally turrets do not change hand once they're capped between equally capable teams in Alderaan, so communication has almost no value when turrets never change hands.

 

In Novare Coast there isn't even any reasonable opening strat outside of the standard 6 south 2 natural. Any attempt to do anything fancy will just get intercepted by the guys in the middle. The best strat tends to involve stealth attackers attacking a node defended by one guy, but in that case communication would not help the defender (the attacker is trying to kill him and cap before any reinforcement can arrive). Without stealth, any attempt to attack east/west turret can be observed from south and countered appropriately.

 

On Voidstar you literally just have to head to the door with less friendly dots on defense at all times. On offense it's mostly a mindless zerg rush except for an occasionally stealth attack and again communication don't help much on stealth attack because it's a pretty bad stealth attack if you give the enemy enough time for any reinforcement to arrive before you killed the target.

 

Now it's true a premade usually have some kind of gear/skill/class advantage because premade at least fairly aggressively selects against weak skill/gear characters, but any collection of individual with one of those 3 advantages has a significant edge over those who do not and that's just a matter of life.

 

Don't mistake me, I am arguing FOR premades, and their use of voice. My only point is that if you are going to play using tools that give you a huge advantage, don't be an elitist douche about it. Basically if you are stomping a team into the ground, take your foot off their throat for a second.

 

But don't tell me voice isn't a huge advantage. I use it. No we don't spend 10 minutes before the match discussing complex strategies, we don't say "copy" when someone gives us an update. But the simple fact of being able to say something, rather than stop and type it, is HUGE. It's not so much that it is hard to type "snow 3", it's the things you wouldn't bother to type like "Hey 4 of them just spawned and headed toward natural (which they hold), keep an eye on the tunnel, they'll either be coming up through there or coming around the backside of mid". Or "I'm gonna see if I can solo west (in novare) when one of you fighting for mid dies, backfill my spot i the east bunker".

 

Sure you can type all that, but the time it takes is prohibitive. Nevermind the fact that when you are attacked at a node, you can fight and talk at the same time, which buys you an extra 4 seconds. Huge for reinforcements.

[KrackenOne]

its just that random average joe is way too disorganized. I've seen a dps merc running with healing cylinder

 

lmao!!!!!

[Z-ToXiN]

An example of bad PUGs 101:

 

I just had a Voidstar where upon the match start i stealthed, used Force Speed, and went straight for the west door, only to encounter no one at all. So I went to plant... and got the plant off - 25 seconds in! 25 second plant, seriously? About the fastest plant possible. No one from the other team was anywhere near the door, and this was right at the start of the match. Can you say bad defending?

 

Apparantely, the supposed defenders were more interested in fighting 50m+ away from the door. When I looked back while planting, there were 2 defenders fighting my teammates waaaaaaay out away from the door. Really guys? REALLY?

 

I wish I had this match recorded, thats how bad the defending was. Heck, I should start recording my games if only to make a bad PUG montage. It was a same faction match, so that just as well could have been on the other side - see why some of us hate PUGs?

Edited May 30, 2012 by Z-ToXiN

[Elkirin]

I found the OP amusing and I have met people with the OP's opinion, so they are not alone.

 

IMHO:

 

People join in premades because they want to.

People join solo because they want to.

 

Some premades are making people leave the game/queues.

Some soloers are making people leave the game/queues.

 

If you call yourself hardcore you are very likely not.

If someone else calls you hardcore, then to them, you likely are.

[Elkirin]

Second Post;

 

In EvE there was a very simple way to counter numerically superior opponents who were using voice comms.

 

You spent 3-4 months in their guild/corp, gaining confidence and position until you were an officer, then you deleted all items from the guild bank, gave away all tactics and timings for planned events, leaked vent passwords and generally made life unbearable for the guild/corp until it disbanded.

 

With luck many of them quit the game!

 

Now that was PvP.....

[Astarica]

Don't mistake me, I am arguing FOR premades, and their use of voice. My only point is that if you are going to play using tools that give you a huge advantage, don't be an elitist douche about it. Basically if you are stomping a team into the ground, take your foot off their throat for a second.

 

But don't tell me voice isn't a huge advantage. I use it. No we don't spend 10 minutes before the match discussing complex strategies, we don't say "copy" when someone gives us an update. But the simple fact of being able to say something, rather than stop and type it, is HUGE. It's not so much that it is hard to type "snow 3", it's the things you wouldn't bother to type like "Hey 4 of them just spawned and headed toward natural (which they hold), keep an eye on the tunnel, they'll either be coming up through there or coming around the backside of mid". Or "I'm gonna see if I can solo west (in novare) when one of you fighting for mid dies, backfill my spot i the east bunker".

 

Sure you can type all that, but the time it takes is prohibitive. Nevermind the fact that when you are attacked at a node, you can fight and talk at the same time, which buys you an extra 4 seconds. Huge for reinforcements.

 

The WZs just aren't that complicated. One guy posted earlier that if you're in a standard 2 node map (NC/Alderran/Voidstar), then if you have more people than the enemy at a certain point that implies they have more people than you at the other point and you should start heading there. You don't even need to talk about this. This is just something very good players will do the moment they see that their current node is secured, and secure doesn't mean every enemy is dead. If you got 5 guys and they have 3 attackers, at least one person can leave to check the other spot.

 

Sure most PUGs are inexplicably bad so you actually have to let them know that if you got 6 guys sitting in middle of Alderaan with no enemy in sight it's not always the case that the enemy has given up, but rather they might be mounting an attack on the side turret. But I'm not talking about premades clownstomping hopelessly outclassed competition since they'd win anyway, voice or no voice.

 

Also, even on a map like Alderran has great visibliity. If you got 6 people in middle and no one directly next to you, all you have to do is go the west/east dropoff point and turn your camera around and you'll see if anyone's heading for your side cannon. You can even just start running there, since if you see nobody from middle, that implies the closest enemy is a solid 10 seconds away from that node unless you fear a team of stunlocking operatives are about to assault the middle node. Novare Coast has even better visibilty. You can pretty much see everything without leaving middle. If you can see 3 guys are heading west from south, and you can check your minimap to know you only got one guy there, then somebody better head there. While voice helps a bit here, usually you can defend by simply sending the closest 2 guys to reinforce.

 

The only map where you have interesting communication is Huttball, but interesting plans of attack are also very vulnerable to counterattack. Usually you'd want to do some gimmick attack that basically involves giving up middle and hoping 2-3 guys sneak past the top for the quick knockout goal to demoralize the enemy. Voice is useful here but doing something like that is inherently dangerous (if you get stopped they usually can score easily since you're giving up defense). Huttball is also generally a defense-strong map, i.e. if you run into a team that's good at grappling all the communication in the world isn't going to let you pull anything cute off because all your frontrunners will just get grappled back.

 

The only obvious advantage I see in voice is trying to get a quick blowout, like the 30 seconds goal in Huttball (which will usually just result in the other team immediately scoring after if they're disciplined, even if they give up the first goal), or the quick 3 cap in Alderaan/NC. But of course if you can pull that off you're playing a team that you most likely do not need any communication to begin with. As an aside, countering a well thought out plan in Huttball usually demoralizes the enemy premade so it's a high risk, high reward move. I've been in PUGs where we defended against a gimmick play in Huttball and you can tell the entire team was stunned and we scored 3 goals before any of them figured out what's going on.

[kaya]

 

Actively try to make the WZ fun, or at least tolerable, for the people you are crushing. Throw the WZ? Never. But maybe cap two turrets when youre capable of capping and holding 3. Give them a minute or two to get some defense medals, and then send some peeps over there for some 3 v 8s. The 3 people get the challenge of seeing how many they can take out before they die, and the PuGs get some medals and have something to do other than standing around complaining about how much they hate premades. Maybe even tell them that's what you are doing in gen chat. You know, be civil.

 

Interesting idea : /

Reps on my server are routinely crushing the imps - we just go for the 3 cap to get it over with asap. No point dragging it out. Probably a bad idea when i think about it.

But many of us are beginning to realise that this is creating a pretty terrible situation for the server - a lot imps are just unsubbing, some are rerolling rep side.

At this point about 2 in 3 games are rep v rep if not more.

 

We aren't rude about crushing them and we try not to rub it in or to make it as unpleasant as possible ... pretty sure it doesn't help much though.

[Z-ToXiN]

The problem with lots of PUG players is that they don't go for the objectives. Lots just run around and attack people as if it were Team Deathmatch.

 

In my earlier post I told about an example of that. Another common thing is players completely leaving me on my own when Im carrying the ball in Huttball. I can rarely count on PUGgers to be ahead of me to receive a pass. Or be anywhere near me to take a pass, for that matter. So sometimes it becomes frustrating, I cant always carry the ball in to endzone myself if Im being focused on, but people often dont seem to realize that. With premades, or at least with intelligent good PUGgers, I can count on getting support when carrrying the ball, or know to set up behind the fires to take a pass because I know they will actually pass.

[Kleve]

People who think back pedaling is bad are teenagers with no breadth in thinking.

 

Back-pedaling is an excellent baiting scheme for ranged classes. Full out run away? Your going to make a competent melee player give up because he has better things to kill. Use the back pedal, bait away the teenage kid on the forum bashing back pedaling, and have your team mate cap the door or node.

 

Someone gets it. Apparently he and I are the only people that recognize back-pedaling as yet another way to bait people, a la fake/false casting...

[Kleve]

Amen to that!

 

The reason most people make premades, is because they can't handle losing, and just want to roflstomp PuGs. But guess what? Losing makes you a better player.

 

I'd rather be paired with crappy players and have more of a challenge, then PuG stomp as a premade.

 

I LOVE pwning elitists. It's what I live for in MMORPGs.

 

I agree with most of what you said. Most of us learned how to pvp by being new/bad and learning by being repeatedly beaten until it suddenly 'clicked'.

 

And yeah, there's something supremely satisfying about pwning a self-anointed 'elitist'. It gets even better when you realize most of them so can't conceive of being beaten that when they ARE, they have to ragequit and go make gangsigns at the mailman to feel better about themselves.

[Elkirin]

"Actively try to make the WZ fun, or at least tolerable, for the people you are crushing. Throw the WZ? Never. But maybe cap two turrets when youre capable of capping and holding 3. Give them a minute or two to get some defense medals, and then send some peeps over there for some 3 v 8s. The 3 people get the challenge of seeing how many they can take out before they die, and the PuGs get some medals and have something to do other than standing around complaining about how much they hate premades. Maybe even tell them that's what you are doing in gen chat. You know, be civil."

 

"Interesting idea : /

Reps on my server are routinely crushing the imps - we just go for the 3 cap to get it over with asap. No point dragging it out. Probably a bad idea when i think about it.

But many of us are beginning to realise that this is creating a pretty terrible situation for the server - a lot imps are just unsubbing, some are rerolling rep side.

At this point about 2 in 3 games are rep v rep if not more.

 

We aren't rude about crushing them and we try not to rub it in or to make it as unpleasant as possible ... pretty sure it doesn't help much though. "

 

 

These two above posts are very important reading for all those who wish to see warzone PvP continue in SWTOR.

 

For those who just want to roflstomp and/or abuse each other about how to play, no need to read just continue along with your goal of reducing the number of people in the queues.....

Edited May 30, 2012 by Elkirin

[HelinCarnate]

backpaddeling is NEVER effective.

 

the only xception i ever seen in it is to be in the "dead zone" of a warrior charge...other then that..terrible

 

Sage/sorc running up to door in voidstar, sees 2 guys. Stops, then starts to backpeddal. Most of the time those 2 can't resist the "easy kill" and they attack leaving the door open for the stealther behind them.

 

Never say never.

[HelinCarnate]

It doesnt matter unbind or not.

I suggest most of my newbie friends learn to PvP to unbind it to shake the habit of ever using it.

 

I left mind there to be able to micro positioning myself in some PvE encounters and to avoid backstab type of move while getting some instants off in melee range.

And in this game backstab and hidden strike is usable from 90 degree to the sides for some reason, could be graphical synch issue but I know for a fact side strafing away (as in strafing away towards where your opponent is facing) enables back stab and hidden strike move because I play an operative.

 

What's really bad tho that I saw yesterday in WZ.... a sorc did backpedaling with FORCE SPEED... it looks really funny.

 

But wait isnt this suppose to be a thread about why people premades?

 

I premade so I dont have to deal with all the "headaches".

I do however solo queue if I know the pugs are "not terrible" at the time period to get in more actions.

 

Mainly it was a complaint about pugs. While most of the complaints are valid, backpeddaling has some uses which is what people are discussing.

[HelinCarnate]

You can't have eyes all over the map at once without communication. The person calling out inc's isn't necessarily a leader that everyone has to listen to, but rather a teammate communicating with the rest of his team. If my team just clears out the enemy at snow and there is 7 of us on the node, and then someone at mid says "3 inc to Mid", we know we can appropriately send about 4-5 people to help him out, whereas if they only say "1 inc to mid" maybe only 1 or 2 goes. Communication is absolutely necessary to have map control and awareness as you so put it, so in the event that everyone isn't in a voice communication channel, chat spam with inc's is the next best thing.

 

I'd like for you to show me a professional sport that doesn't use communication as part of their teamwork, and only uses their "awareness" of the game and I'll show you a team who isn't going to win any games.

 

Exactly. Something like HELP EAST NOW!!! will get most of the team headed east but is pointless if it is just a 2 on 1 and they only needed 1 or 2 at most to help them out. Yelling incomming is useless without saying how many are there.

[Maxiim]

The original post is solid gold. It's even better when you call people out on things like that, and then they call YOU "bad" or "stop crying".

 

Classic Entitlement at it's best haha

[Vasagi]

As someone who has been in hardcore and casual guild, I personally would rather play with "baddies" than the egos and nasty personalities that dominate hardcore PvP guilds. The "best" PvPers are almost always the same personality- rude, selfish, childish, whiny, and obnoxious in vent/mumble.

 

Compounding that problem, these large PvP guilds are basically high school all over again: everyone is supposed to idolize and parrot the popular players, and belittling anyone new or not part of the "in crowd" is REALLY cool to do. This was lame when I was 17, and is still lame now that I'm an adult.

 

Most pug players on my server are just as good as the "uber" pvp guilds, the difference being that pugs can't handpick class composition and level of gear in their group. Also, most pug players on my server don't have a nervous breakdown if we lose the match.

[filipesantana]

Someone gets it. Apparently he and I are the only people that recognize back-pedaling as yet another way to bait people, a la fake/false casting...

 

You can use all the excuses possible...if you backpaddle ur bad.not even Gona try to justify it but think about it like this: pro players,that live of gaming and get payed to do it don't backpaddle.....who's right?random or guy good enough that a brand decides to pay him?

[Orangerascal]

You can use all the excuses possible...if you backpaddle ur bad.not even Gona try to justify it but think about it like this: pro players,that live of gaming and get payed to do it don't backpaddle.....who's right?random or guy good enough that a brand decides to pay him?

 

You're wrong. It's simple game theory.

 

Binding the back peddle key gives you 1 more option in the decision tree than not binding it. Hence it will always be more beneficial to have the option to back peddle. If and only if, there is something better to bind, then it should not be bound. Strafing keys over rotating left and right are good examples of this, because you handle camera rotations with your mouse.

 

Stop quoting something some pro said about some other game blindly and think for yourself.

Edited May 30, 2012 by Orangerascal

[filipesantana]

You're wrong. It's simple game theory.

 

Binding the back peddle key gives you 1 more option in the decision tree than not binding it. Hence it will always be more beneficial to have the option to back peddle. If and only if, there is something better to bind, then it should not be bound. Strafing keys over rotating left and right are good examples of this, because you handle camera rotations with your mouse.

 

Stop quoting something some pro said about some other game blindly and think for yourself.

 

Lol,show me that quote,cuz we might be twins...since I have never seen this written and just came up with it...

[Orangerascal]

Lol,show me that quote,cuz we might be twins...since I have never seen this written and just came up with it...

 

Most arena players unbind back peddling from the 'S' key:

http://www.arenajunkies.com/topic/172514-unbinding-s-key-worth-it/

 

The real reason you unbind the 'S' is because it has a high value real estate spot on your keyboard. You can still bind the back peddle to some other key like a lot of tanks and rdps do.

 

in short:

rebind 'S' Key != don't back peddle

Edited May 30, 2012 by Orangerascal

[filipesantana]

Most arena players unbind back peddling from the 'S' key:

http://www.arenajunkies.com/topic/172514-unbinding-s-key-worth-it/

 

The real reason you unbind the 'S' is because it has a high value real estate spot on your keyboard. You can still bind the back peddle to some other key like a lot of tanks and rdps do.

 

in short:

rebind 'S' Key != don't back peddle

 

So for the sake of arguing u do agree backpaddling is terrible in pvp but u CAN bind it somewhere else....fine agree,cba:rak_02:

Edited May 30, 2012 by filipesantana

[Stovokor]

If 4 player's from various guilds just group up and run warzones on a regular basis without voice-comms is this considered a premade ?

[Varicite]

As someone who has been in hardcore and casual guild, I personally would rather play with "baddies" than the egos and nasty personalities that dominate hardcore PvP guilds. The "best" PvPers are almost always the same personality- rude, selfish, childish, whiny, and obnoxious in vent/mumble.

 

Compounding that problem, these large PvP guilds are basically high school all over again: everyone is supposed to idolize and parrot the popular players, and belittling anyone new or not part of the "in crowd" is REALLY cool to do. This was lame when I was 17, and is still lame now that I'm an adult.

 

Most pug players on my server are just as good as the "uber" pvp guilds, the difference being that pugs can't handpick class composition and level of gear in their group. Also, most pug players on my server don't have a nervous breakdown if we lose the match.

 

lol, not all PvP guilds are like this. MOST are, I'll admit, but not all.

 

My fiance and I remained unguilded since early release, and bided our time, just holding out for a decent one. We don't like to group w/ douchebags, just have fun, y'know?

 

We did finally find a decent PvP guild w/ people who are pretty cool. They exist! : )

 

If 4 player's from various guilds just group up and run warzones on a regular basis without voice-comms is this considered a premade ?

 

Yes. The other team will still hate you for having friends, because you queued together.

Edited May 30, 2012 by Varicite

[Veniras]

If 4 player's from various guilds just group up and run warzones on a regular basis without voice-comms is this considered a premade ?

 

Depends on who you ask. For me - yes - grouping = premade as it limits the number of solo players joining the WZ and therefore the unpredictability of the team.

[ubermouth]

If you need someone to tell you which node needs help you have very little situational awareness. A lot of the players that run in premades are pretty bad when they are on their own.

 

Premades can definitely be fun and they can make many things easier, but if you need a full group to pvp, chances are you aren't as good as you think you are.

 

Funny how there is so much jargon being thrown around in here. Funny how everyone in here considers themselves a master tactician. Typically, self professed masters, arent.

Let's consider this guy's statement about situational awareness. Rather than giving an example how NOT calling incs is generally better than not, which would be more useful to all of us, he takes the time to make a comment where we are supposed to infer that HE has situational awareness.

 

Just Let's say I'm at grass with one teammate, and mini shows three teammates at mid, and three at east. How am I to divine, from where I am, how many enemy are at either mid or snow? Without eyes on the enemy, direct or remote through inc calling, the best I can do is look at the mini, and see if both of my teammate groups around mid and snow are running around; which only tells me that it is likely that they are in battle; it tells me nothing of numbers or pressure. With no eyes, or inc calls, I won't know about numbers or pressure until I'm running past/into mid. It's even more challenging in Novare coast, as it isn't a linear map, like civil war. meaning, you can't really evaluate other nodes based off of eyes on the node you're running past/at. This ambiguity contributes to the often times poor decision for a group of five players to run around like headless chickens, going from node to node, one step behind the enemy.

Calling inc cant hurt, unless it is abused, or unreliable information. Information is a resource for organization, its why peope use vchat. Any tactician should know that.

Edited May 30, 2012 by ubermouth