The reason people make premades

[Hethroin]

The point I was making wasn't that you shouldn't call incoming.

 

My point was that many cases you can see that you are out of position based on the number of enemies and friendlies around you (that is assuming that you still have 6-8 enemies participating against your 8, sometimes 8 imps will sit on snow and 'protect' the only point they hold). You have to be able to count to 8. Simple math tells you that there are 5 enemies somewhere else if all you see is 3 at the point you are at. Simple math also tells you that there is only one team mate at 'the other point' when you do a quick head count around you and find 7 green names. The resulting numbers "5" and "1" are the enemy to friendly ratio elsewhere on the map. This is a situation where a positional shift by 3 to 5 of your teammates should be made prior to any "Inc grass 5" call is made. Because 5 enemies are likely to take out your 1 faster than he can type it and probably faster than you can notice and process it.

[ubermouth]

The point I was making wasn't that you shouldn't call incoming.

 

My point was that many cases you can see that you are out of position based on the number of enemies and friendlies around you (that is assuming that you still have 6-8 enemies participating against your 8, sometimes 8 imps will sit on snow and 'protect' the only point they hold). You have to be able to count to 8. Simple math tells you that there are 5 enemies somewhere else if all you see is 3 at the point you are at. Simple math also tells you that there is only one team mate at 'the other point' when you do a quick head count around you and find 7 green names. The resulting numbers "5" and "1" are the enemy to friendly ratio elsewhere on the map. This is a situation where a positional shift by 3 to 5 of your teammates should be made prior to any "Inc grass 5" call is made. Because 5 enemies are likely to take out your 1 faster than he can type it and probably faster than you can notice and process it.

still, your ability to do simple math is dependent on having eyes on the enemy. there are often situations where you don't have eyes on the enemy. the meat of this issue isn't about scenarios where a decent player can survey the field and see the enemy. you're right, that's basic deduction. the utility of calling ics is for situations where you are wary about induction.

 

additionally, and understandably, there is a lot subjective perspective going on in here. i may be able to see the enemy at mid, and assess that a inc call for west is either priority/non priority, but i'd still want my teammates who can't see to be able to make a more informed decision about how to move.

[Ahhmyface]

Just thought I'd drop into this thread again, and look, more noobness. I just have to laugh at people who think voice chat is a huge advantage

 

I've had wz matches in vent where we didn't speak. Why? Because good players know what to do without being told. In fact, the only reason I join vent is for conversation, and the godawful regroup/queuing crap we have to deal with after warzone. You can literally see everything you need to know on your own, without any instruction. Watching your ops healthbars and deathspam and medalspam allows you to keep tabs on whats happening, your little overlay tells you who has the ball and which node is being capped in NC. In alderaan, as somebody pointed out, you just watch your numbers. If your node has 5 defenders and 3 attackers, then there are 5 attackers somewhere else and 3~ defenders. Open your map. Ooh, look, the position of all your teammates. Last of all, vent is only 3 people. So if people were too stupid to figure it out (and it's probably not my premade) on their own, I have to use chat anyway.

Edited May 30, 2012 by Ahhmyface

[ubermouth]

lol

1. i didn't mention vchat as being a huge advantage

2. yet again you're speaking (counting scenario) of situations where you have eyes on the enemy.

3. although i can, along with any half decent player, cross reference ops bars and mini maps to identify which node has the most pressure, i'd still be ok with a some supplementary/expeditious info such as "4 w".

 

additionally, denigrating others, or touting yoursself as bomb is not only transparent, but trite.

any decent player can move around w/o being told, use healthbars/mini map etc.

it still doesn't mean inc calls are worthless. and it doesn't mean that you can't support tools that may benefit less skilled players. you're basically just stroking yourself by saying, "i don't need tools"

 

posts that focus on people's weaknesses contribute very little, and rarely amount to much beyond the self-masturbatory rantings of an unloved child.

Edited May 30, 2012 by ubermouth

[ubermouth]

If you need someone to tell you which node needs help you have very little situational awareness. A lot of the players that run in premades are pretty bad when they are on their own.

 

Premades can definitely be fun and they can make many things easier, but if you need a full group to pvp, chances are you aren't as good as you think you are.

 

Funny how there is so much jargon being thrown around in here. Funny how everyone in here considers themselves a master tactician. Typically, self professed masters, arent.

Let's consider this guy's statement about situational awareness. Rather than giving an example how NOT calling incs is generally better than not, which would be more useful to all of us, he takes the time to make a comment where we are supposed to infer that HE has situational awareness.

 

Just Let's say I'm at grass with one teammate, and mini shows three teammates at mid, and three at east. How am I to divine, from where I am, how many enemy are at either mid or snow? Without eyes on the enemy, direct or remote through inc calling, the best I can do is look at the mini, and see if both of my teammate groups around mid and snow are running around; which only tells me that it is likely that they are in battle; it tells me nothing of numbers or pressure. With no eyes, or inc calls, I won't know about numbers or pressure until I'm running past/into mid. The same phenomenon applies to Novaro as well, it's actually more difficult there because running past mid is not requisite for getting to NE NW. This ambiguity contributes to the seemingly idiotic decision for a group of five players to run around like headless chickens, going from node to node, one step behind the enemy.

Calling inc cant hurt, unless it is abused, or unreliable information. Information is a resource for organization, its why peope use vchat. Any tactician should know that.

[Astarica]

In any 2 node map, most situational awareness boils down to if you've an advantage at where you are, you almost certainly have a disadvantage at where you're not so you should definiltely start checking the other node. You don't even have to be able to count well. It's usually quite obvious if one node is secure and that's your cue to check the other node.

 

Then again, I remember seeing games where in Alderran we have say 6 in middle 2 on side, you see 4 guys jump off their spawn point and turn right, Despite these 4 guys literally have nowhere else to go except to attack your side cannon, the guys will stay put at middle unless the side guys say '4 incoming snow', despite the guys at the middle will see those 4 guys before the snow guys do. In fact if you chase the guys who can only be attacking your side turret most likely people will say don't get drawn out by the enemy because a team of stunlocking operatives might be nearby.

 

A lot of time I think most people just don't get that there can only be 8 guys on the other side so if you see at least 6 of them, that's probably all of them and as long as you know how to defend against a standard solo stealth attacker, it's perfectly fine to leave only one guy to defend a node if you can see 6 reds. Chances are more than likely the 2 reds you don't see are just back at respawn and there certainly isn't a team of stunlocking operatives just waiting for all but one of your guys to leave a node.

[Yescek]

People unbind their S key ?

 

Backpedaling is situational , but very effective.

 

This. /thread

 

People'll call you bad for it, but every now and then I find myself in a position such that one or two tops steps straight back put me back in Charge range.

[Ahhmyface]

Funny how there is so much jargon being thrown around in here. Funny how everyone in here considers themselves a master tactician. Typically, self professed masters, arent.

Let's consider this guy's statement about situational awareness. Rather than giving an example how NOT calling incs is generally better than not, which would be more useful to all of us, he takes the time to make a comment where we are supposed to infer that HE has situational awareness.

 

Just Let's say I'm at grass with one teammate, and mini shows three teammates at mid, and three at east. How am I to divine, from where I am, how many enemy are at either mid or snow? Without eyes on the enemy, direct or remote through inc calling, the best I can do is look at the mini, and see if both of my teammate groups around mid and snow are running around; which only tells me that it is likely that they are in battle; it tells me nothing of numbers or pressure. With no eyes, or inc calls, I won't know about numbers or pressure until I'm running past/into mid. The same phenomenon applies to Novaro as well, it's actually more difficult there because running past mid is not requisite for getting to NE NW. This ambiguity contributes to the seemingly idiotic decision for a group of five players to run around like headless chickens, going from node to node, one step behind the enemy.

Calling inc cant hurt, unless it is abused, or unreliable information. Information is a resource for organization, its why peope use vchat. Any tactician should know that.

 

1. If you're 3 capping, you're ****** them and they are horrible. Voicechat is unnecessary to beat a team like that.

2. If you're 2 capping, then use the methods described above

3. You can see battles from your respawn area, you know where to go.

4. Watch their respawn area from your node. It will tell you where they are going.

5. Watch healthbars. It's easy to see how much damage they are taking. In fact, this is more important than numbers. Help the node that is losing, forget the number of players involved.

6. Position yourself so that you can easily switch nodes, and so you have visibility of the battlefield. You're either camping a node (and so you better not move regardless) or you're patrolling, ready to react.

7. Look around and see what your ally is attacking/what-is-going-to-die. Attack that too.

8. Set up strategies beforehand. I frequently play voidstar and tell my teammate in the spawn zone, "i will be at left. i will declare numbers regularly". I can type "2" between cooldowns, FFS.

 

Anyway, the truth is that voicechat is a crutch. Suppose somebody fails to mention something in voicechat. If you were relying on them, you are screwed. If you never rely on voicechat, you can never be fooled.

[ubermouth]

Your list of basic skills/ approaches is reasonable. However, your list isn't evidence of why text/voice comm is not valuable outside of outlier scenarios of misinformation. Additionally, it may be a crutch for some, and not for others. Do I feel I can coordinate more quickly when I'm in communication, yes, do I fundamentally need it to respond to the ebb and flow of the match, no.

Again, communication is helpful in scenarios when you aren't eagle eying spawn points; additionally, I can't rely on a pug team to make peremptory movements, so I'd feel a little better if they had a little help through open communication.

Finally, I never even mentioned vchat. I said that a well timed inc call in text chat can be useful to some players.

[Ahhmyface]

I am simply trying to put an end to the myth that voice chat is NECESSARY. There is no debate on whether or not it is convenient. Players in this thread have gone so far as to state that it is a "huge advantage" and more or less placing the full responsibility for their loss on voicechat. The truth is that my winrate would be statistically indistinguishable.

[Hethroin]

still, your ability to do simple math is dependent on having eyes on the enemy. there are often situations where you don't have eyes on the enemy....

 

If you have 5 friendlies on mid, and 0 enemies, then you are about to lose grass or snow, depending on what you currently hold. There are probably 5 to 7 bogies headed that way as you struggle to do "8 - 0 = 8" in your head.

[ubermouth]

Lol, not only are you struggling to respond to what I've said, rather than to what you think I've said, but your scenarios are overly simplistic.

Perhaps it's 7 v 8. It's been a 6v6 stalemate at mid for nearly three minutes. At some point it's 5v6 at mid. Our sixth guy gets off bike and jumps back to mid seeing its still contended. But, one of the two enemy defenders from their natural decides to meet up with the respawned seventh from mid to go for our natural ie 1v2.

Your logic is saying that in this seemingly static situation, there would be no utility for a "2 inc grass?"

Guess that explains why stalemated mids often lead to capped naturals.

Edited May 30, 2012 by ubermouth

[Hethroin]

...

Perhaps it's 7 v 8. It's been a 6v6 stalemate at mid for nearly three minutes. At some point it's 5v6 at mid. Our sixth guy gets off bike and jumps back to mid seeing its still contended. But, one of the two enemy defenders from their natural decides to meet up with the respawned seventh from mid to go for our natural ie 1v2.

Your logic is saying that in this seemingly static situation, there would be no utility for a "2 inc grass?"

Guess that explains why stalemated mids often lead to capped naturals.

 

That is not my logic. By all means call for help in /ops; though I would not expect it to show when you're stalemated mid and one body short, not until mid is capped. What happens when you're 2 short? What about when you have 6 healers and 2 tanks in ops?

 

My logic is that the people in middle should be able to see that they are 3 enemies short of 8 enemies in the middle and either win it (they do have one man advantage) or leave enough of a contention force mid and move some to cap right or assist left, without being instructed to do so.

[Astarica]

Lol, not only are you struggling to respond to what I've said, rather than to what you think I've said, but your scenarios are overly simplistic.

Perhaps it's 7 v 8. It's been a 6v6 stalemate at mid for nearly three minutes. At some point it's 5v6 at mid. Our sixth guy gets off bike and jumps back to mid seeing its still contended. But, one of the two enemy defenders from their natural decides to meet up with the respawned seventh from mid to go for our natural ie 1v2.

Your logic is saying that in this seemingly static situation, there would be no utility for a "2 inc grass?"

Guess that explains why stalemated mids often lead to capped naturals.

 

You killed a guy in a stalemate so by definition you're one person ahead.

 

You either use that extra man to defend the other node or try to take the contested node. If the decision you made was wrong, you pay the price for making the wrong decision. Having voice chat or not does not prevent you from making the wrong decision. I actually know pretty well when the respawning guys are heading to the other node in a stalemate. The only reason I don't intercept them is if I think we can try to push the contested node while those guys are attacking elsewhere. This may or may not be the right thing to do but I am always quite aware that another node is going to be attacked and took my chances based on my assessment of the team's capability.

 

By the way, it is usually better to try to push for the contested middle node at the risk of exposing your closer turret. Let's assume the enemy didn't do an 'empty goal' strat and left at least one person defending the node they have, and you have 2 guys defending your natural. For them to have a man advantage (3v2), that means they can only have 4 in middle versus your 6 and 6v4 is good enough odds to make a push for. In Alderaan, 2v3 can usually be defended due to the respawn advantage. In Novare Coast, it's actually quite easy to retake your natural after you secure south. Securing south is the hardest part in NC, and taking the opponent's natural turret is basically impossible against equal competition (the other team simply gets there way faster than you). Therefore, it is a perfectly valid strategy to simply lose your natural to take south, and once you have south just retake the natural.

 

Assuming teams are indeed equal in capacity, there is no such thing as a risk free attack. The guys attacking your side turret is taking a gamble on their ability to stall you in the middle, and conversely you're taking a gamble that your side defenders can hold while you take middle. There is no magic way to get you a guaranteed success by just talking about it. The team with voice chat doesn't magically get to use 10 guys to ensure they have an advantage at both nodes in Alderran/NC. By definiton wherever they have an advantage implies they're disadvantaged in the other node.

[ubermouth]

Nowhere didI say vchat or text chat was a magic bullet. Plase don't twist my argument to further your own.

I merely said that it is often a useful tool in addition to all the very basic gameplay tactics you and H listed. But thank you for your treatise.

Edited May 30, 2012 by ubermouth

[Astarica]

Agreed. Still, general practice of information sharing can't, where as the lack of information has.

 

It's not that you shouldn't share information but information sharing is really a crutch. The WZs just aren't very complicated. This isn't like pro football or Starcraft 2 where if the enemy executed the XYZ move you must let everyone know it immediately because it hard counters your chosen strategy. There are almost no hard counters to the standard openings so victory still boils down to whether your side can kill the other side better than they can kill you.

 

Let's take Alderaan which is probably the most opening-dependent map in the game (capping 2 turrets often seals the game immediately). Suppose my side opens with a 2/6/0 standard opening, and your side has a spy so you know for sure this is what we're doing. You'll probably pick something like 3/4/1 which is an ideal counter formed with perfect knowledge. So if communication is key, there must be something I should say when I saw that you're going 3/4/1, right? Not really. In this game, the guys going to middle will see a bunch of red guys (7 to be exact) and 3 of them turn right. The guys in the middle will also see the 3/4 split before the 2 guys running the natural see it.

 

So what can they possibly say to each other? The side of 2 cannot ask for help, because the help would see the attack before the 2 does. The side of 6 can say, '3 guys going your way', but what good does that do? Does the two now use their extra awesomeness to fight 2 on 3? No what happens in this case is either you trust the two guys will turn their awesomeness on and hold 2on3 (bad idea usually), or the person who is most ahead on the main 6 hops on the ramp to jump down to help the 2. He doesn't need to say, "Hey guys I'm here to help you". It's just something he should do because you can't expect to win a 2on3 against equal opponents.

 

Now in a PUG what usually happens is the 3 overpowers the 2, the 6 in middle takes middle eventually but now the enemy has 2 side turrets, and the 6 guys in the middle complains about the two guys fighting the 3 didn't call for help, despite the fact that those 6 guys must have seen those 3 attackers before the 2 on the side did. Rather than realizing they were stupid for not seeing 3 guys veer off to the right from the main attack the moment the game started, it's easier to blame on lack of voice, even though it'd have made no difference whatsoever.

[Lymain]

The main benefit of voice communication on the current maps is cheezing voidstar defense. Sometimes you'll lose track of the spawn gate and can ask what it's at instead of running to look or guessing.

 

With that said, my premade team generally doesn't use voice because 1) you have to communicate with the PuGs on your team anyway and 2) you kinda get more "locked in" when you have to be aware of everything for yourself.

[Astarica]

The main benefit of voice communication on the current maps is cheezing voidstar defense. Sometimes you'll lose track of the spawn gate and can ask what it's at instead of running to look or guessing.

 

With that said, my premade team generally doesn't use voice because 1) you have to communicate with the PuGs on your team anyway and 2) you kinda get more "locked in" when you have to be aware of everything for yourself.

 

In Voidstar, to be able to do anything meaningfully defensively you must be within visible distance. If one guy is defending a door solo and everyone else is in the other door, and then he type/said: "Team of stunlocking Operatives help!", it's near certainty that the door will get blown up by the time you actually get there since you'll most likely get stunned at least once on the way there and it takes more than 4 seconds to get from one door to the other.

 

But if you've visiblity to the other door, then you shouldn't need someone to tell you they're in trouble, because it'd be obvious.

[JJwaaa]

takes 1 second to type,

e3 h

east 4 help , i can type that within one global cooldown

means, i am faster than u speaking

if ur in a premade, voice communication can be a hinderance

 

w2 hf

west 2, help fast, means there are 2 comeing west to me, but i suspect maybe a dstealth with them

 

ed1r

east door, one comeing with healer

 

all them things i can type within one global cooldown, so you want coive command to speak to people nothing else

[Lymain]

In Voidstar, to be able to do anything meaningfully defensively you must be within visible distance. If one guy is defending a door solo and everyone else is in the other door, and then he type/said: "Team of stunlocking Operatives help!", it's near certainty that the door will get blown up by the time you actually get there since you'll most likely get stunned at least once on the way there and it takes more than 4 seconds to get from one door to the other.

 

But if you've visiblity to the other door, then you shouldn't need someone to tell you they're in trouble, because it'd be obvious.

 

That's not what I meant at all. I'm talking about timing your deaths to the spawn gate when you're completely outgunned.

[ShadowOfVey]

In Voidstar, to be able to do anything meaningfully defensively you must be within visible distance. If one guy is defending a door solo and everyone else is in the other door, and then he type/said: "Team of stunlocking Operatives help!", it's near certainty that the door will get blown up by the time you actually get there since you'll most likely get stunned at least once on the way there and it takes more than 4 seconds to get from one door to the other.

 

But if you've visiblity to the other door, then you shouldn't need someone to tell you they're in trouble, because it'd be obvious.

 

There's no way someone can tell their team a team of stunlocking operatives is there in time, they'll have already unsubbed.

[Feztonio]

the one reason i enjoy guild / premade pvp is for the use of vent. even my guild has used vent / not used vent and it's a billion times easier and more organized with vent. .. able to concentrate on button mashing and rotations not having to stop to type. able to just bark out orders, ask for an assist, tell the group to target a player on their team.

 

voip is light years ahead of /ops channel for keeping it organized. with a pug, you can't get in vent/mumble/teamspeak etc..

[ubermouth]

It's not that you shouldn't share information but information sharing is really a crutch. The WZs just aren't very complicated. This isn't like pro football or Starcraft 2 where if the enemy executed the XYZ move you must let everyone know it immediately because it hard counters your chosen strategy. There are almost no hard counters to the standard openings so victory still boils down to whether your side can kill the other side better than they can kill you.

 

Let's take Alderaan which is probably the most opening-dependent map in the game (capping 2 turrets often seals the game immediately). Suppose my side opens with a 2/6/0 standard opening, and your side has a spy so you know for sure this is what we're doing. You'll probably pick something like 3/4/1 which is an ideal counter formed with perfect knowledge. So if communication is key, there must be something I should say when I saw that you're going 3/4/1, right? Not really. In this game, the guys going to middle will see a bunch of red guys (7 to be exact) and 3 of them turn right. The guys in the middle will also see the 3/4 split before the 2 guys running the natural see it.

 

So what can they possibly say to each other? The side of 2 cannot ask for help, because the help would see the attack before the 2 does. The side of 6 can say, '3 guys going your way', but what good does that do? Does the two now use their extra awesomeness to fight 2 on 3? No what happens in this case is either you trust the two guys will turn their awesomeness on and hold 2on3 (bad idea usually), or the person who is most ahead on the main 6 hops on the ramp to jump down to help the 2. He doesn't need to say, "Hey guys I'm here to help you". It's just something he should do because you can't expect to win a 2on3 against equal opponents.

 

Now in a PUG what usually happens is the 3 overpowers the 2, the 6 in middle takes middle eventually but now the enemy has 2 side turrets, and the 6 guys in the middle complains about the two guys fighting the 3 didn't call for help, despite the fact that those 6 guys must have seen those 3 attackers before the 2 on the side did. Rather than realizing they were stupid for not seeing 3 guys veer off to the right from the main attack the moment the game started, it's easier to blame on lack of voice, even though it'd have made no difference whatsoever.

 

It's not a crutch, its a tool that has a value relative to its user and the scenario. You say it has no value, and I guess you are saying it doesn't need to be in the game. I'm saying that it may benefit newb/noob players, and by extension your team. By your logic, someone trained in both gun fighting and knife fighting should only carry one or the other lest they be crutch'd. You can be a master at both, yet still utilize both. Not mutually exclusive.

Admitting to the utility of communication does not have to reflect on your own skills: the inherent content of many posts in this thread. The central prompt isn't "convince us all how awesome you are by telling us how you don't need text/voice chat." the prompt is to determine whether in a team setting, text chat has utility and why.

 

Personally, the 90 % content of my vchat (if im even using it) is usually not about the match. However, if I'm guarding a node, and three come at me from 50 meters out, I'm gonna cover my bases and call inc, regardless of whether or not it contributes to the overall dumbification or crutchification or imperfectation of my teammates.

Edited May 30, 2012 by ubermouth

[kjpwv]

my favorite, a sage on my server that uses sprint then mashes the s key to move all of 5 meters backwards.

[Maxkardinal]

The reason people make premades.

 

People like to play with people they like to play. Wasnt that obvious?