SvnStrSlm Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 rally? this arguement again? Its funny, i never needed LFG tools in any game i have played. Oh and to the op, could you be any more whiney. I bet you would be the first to comain if a pick up group died on a boss fight or some one beat you on a roll. players like you are the ones who quit every other day becuase you want want want and when baby no get his candy you cry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katahn Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 Your friends list is your best LFG tool. Cross server LFG tool is a waste of your time. Same server LFG tool is iffy. Even using /1 to find two dps for me and my pal has been a waste of time. EVERYTIME we have done a non guild run, we have ended up with wipes. Once we had a BH using str gear and a Inq using aim gear. The BH using strength gear I can get... heavy armor is heavy... but how in the world does a light armor inquisitor use any kind of aim gear beyond an ear or implant sockets? No common weapons and no light armor with aim unless they went to the extraordinary effort of slotting +aim gear into their orange moddable gear? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallorik Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 This is SW:ToR, where logic states that, after server mergers AND cap increase, a same-server tool should work just fine, seeing how most content needs only 4 persons. . How is that logic? Here is my logic Heals and tanks are something you need for a flash point, Dps are something you have to use up. In otherwords, theres alot more dps than tanks. Removing a spot for one person in a group would help que times if it was a heal or tank role, it makes que times alot longer for dps when you remove a dps spot in a group. IF the new merged servers will go empty and the need for X-Server LFG will arise.. that WILL be the LEAST of Bioware`s problem. It might happen or it might not. SO, you see, he is right. It is a last resort problem. If the new merged servers go empty? What do you think magicaly drained the servers in the first place? what is slowly draining fatman and the other "full" server right now? Thinking that fixing the server populations will fix this game is just crazy, people left this game because its not 2004 and they screwed up pvp several times. They need to fix servers and bring this game up to date with modern mmo features while fixing pvp all within a very short period of time. The only thing that is debateable is if they havent already passed the point of no return. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SvnStrSlm Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 And my point is that there is nothing to agree or disagree on. My experiences are my own, and your's are your own. That's why this debate is pointless. That's why options for both are needed. Options for both wont work. in these games people will always take the easiest route. whether its a shortcut in a ops, bring all range to a fight, or picking a group from a larger pool over a small. its not that those who want to use the server only wont its just a majority will use x server becuase its easier and if so and so can ninja than so can i. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallorik Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 A better analogy would be a internet service provider. All provide internet, but one provides features and gimmicks that another does not. But the latter provides features and gimmicks that the former does not. This is because no feature exists in a vacuum. It seems, as your posts indicate, that you think they do. Because products, such as cars, do not suffer from this restriction like a service does. Seriously, what country do you live in? because you seem to be continually confused by how buisness in a free market works. If you try to compete with someone by releasing a similar product or SERVICE with half the features and try to charge the same amount of money, YOU WILL FAIL. it doesnt matter if it is a product or a service. Swtor didnt go from 2.4m box sales to what ever depressing number of subs they have now by some magical fluke. People were not happy with the service and they left. Now if you want to figure out why people left your game you can just make something up like it was just "casuals" or "hardcores" or "MMO gypsies" Or you can compare the game to one that is and has done well and what they have that you dont have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeramieCrowe Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 That's a terrible analogy. But realistic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeramieCrowe Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 Options for both wont work. in these games people will always take the easiest route. whether its a shortcut in a ops, bring all range to a fight, or picking a group from a larger pool over a small. its not that those who want to use the server only wont its just a majority will use x server becuase its easier and if so and so can ninja than so can i. LFG with a X-server toggle serves both sides. Don't want anyone in your group that's from another server? Toggle it off. Simple as that. With transfers coming, and population consolidation, and moving towards "mega-servers", same-server will be effective. Not everyone needs instant gratification. I'd toggle it off and keep it off. Same server LFGs have always been plenty adequate for me. There's plenty to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthTHC Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 Your friends list is your best LFG tool. Cross server LFG tool is a waste of your time. Same server LFG tool is iffy. Even using /1 to find two dps for me and my pal has been a waste of time. EVERYTIME we have done a non guild run, we have ended up with wipes. Once we had a BH using str gear and a Inq using aim gear. What light armor does AIM come on? Not saying you're lying, but... really... what light armor does AIM come on? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeramieCrowe Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 (edited) If you try to compete with someone by releasing a similar product or SERVICE with half the features and try to charge the same amount of money, YOU WILL FAIL. it doesnt matter if it is a product or a service. This is where you're lost. TOR doesn't have "half the features" of other 5-month-old MMOs. It has different features, which half of happen to be the ones you, personally, do not want. If GW2 launches with server transfers, for instance, that means it's launching without the feature that transfers replaced, for example. "Features do not exist in a vacuum." <-- Read that over and over again until you get it. Edited May 30, 2012 by JeramieCrowe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeramieCrowe Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 (edited) What light armor does AIM come on? Not saying you're lying, but... really... what light armor does AIM come on? Not saying this is the case, but it's possible for someone to gear out lightweight orange armor with AIM mods. Probably someone who doesn't research or come to these forums at all. Edited May 30, 2012 by JeramieCrowe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallorik Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 LFG with a X-server toggle serves both sides. Don't want anyone in your group that's from another server? Toggle it off. Simple as that. With transfers coming, and population consolidation, and moving towards "mega-servers", same-server will be effective. Not everyone needs instant gratification. I'd toggle it off and keep it off. Same server LFGs have always been plenty adequate for me. There's plenty to do. If the anti x server zealots wouldnt mind a toggle they wouldnt care about having a x server tool at all because THEY DONT HAVE TO USE IT. They have no legitimate arguement about not using a x server lfg tool if they dont like it. They are just the type of people that really are really bothered by what other people can and cant do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeramieCrowe Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 If the anti x server zealots wouldnt mind a toggle they wouldnt care about having a x server tool at all because THEY DONT HAVE TO USE IT. They have no legitimate arguement about not using a x server lfg tool if they dont like it. They are just the type of people that really are really bothered by what other people can and cant do. False. It's still a handy tool, handier and faster than spamming chat. If you advocate a "use X-server or nothing" stance, then you're no different than the ones advocating "use same-server or nothing". You'd be just as incorrect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallorik Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 (edited) This is where you're lost. TOR doesn't have "half the features" of other 5-month-old MMOs. It has different features, which half of happen to be the ones you, personally, do not want. If GW2 launches with server transfers, for instance, that means it's launching without the feature that transfers replaced, for example. "Features do not exist in a vacuum." <-- Read that over and over again until you get it. What "feature" does server transfers replace? If you dont want to transfer servers, dont freakin transfer servesr Edited May 30, 2012 by Mallorik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phaedrynn Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 As someone who would never use such a tool I really have no preference. However, there are a LOT of other things I would rather they spend their time working on in the near future than this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeramieCrowe Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 (edited) What "feature" does server transfers replace? If you dont want to transfer servers, dont freakin transfer servesr You completely missed the point. FEATURES DO NOT EXIST IN A VACUUM!!!! That means that the inclusion of features means the disclusion of others if the developer wants to release the game in less than a decade. Usually, the feature to suffer is LFG, because statistics have shown that a very small, tiny population actually use it in the first few months of launch. It's just not worth it. Edited May 30, 2012 by JeramieCrowe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallorik Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 False. It's still a handy tool, handier and faster than spamming chat. If you advocate a "use X-server or nothing" stance, then you're no different than the ones advocating "use same-server or nothing". You'd be just as incorrect. I have personaly told you probably 6 different times that im perfectly fine with a toggle. Most of the people here ranting about x server lfg were the same people ranting against any lfg tool earlier. i agree that wanting x server only is just as unreasonable as not wanting x server or an lfg tool at all when you dont even have to use it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gungan Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 (edited) You completely missed the point. FEATURES DO NOT EXIST IN A VACUUM!!!! That means that the inclusion of features means the disclusion of others if the developer wants to release the game in less than a decade. Usually, the feature to suffer is LFG, because statistics have shown that a very small, tiny population actually use it in the first few months of launch. It's just not worth it. Show me a phone company that does not offer call display. LTE is new, and the "hardcore" smartphone users want more speed, so it's the industry standard now. Some people don't care to have a smartphone for 70 Mbps wireless, and that's fine, but realistically you'd have to be out of your mind to leave your wireless provider because they added in a new feature. You don't see these service providers excluding features their competitors offer because it would reduce their potential client base. They're all the damn same, except for call quality, coverage area, or pricing. The only difference (and possibly the cause of this whole problem altogether) is that you don't have to pay for LTE or call display (which normally cost extra) if you don't want it, but everyone pays the same price in SWTOR. Maybe that needs to change, and people can pay for whatever features they want... assuming of course that you're still on board with labelling it a "service", instead of a "product". Labelling FTW. Edited May 30, 2012 by Gungan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthTHC Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 (edited) As MMOs evolve, developers of the successful ones are learning that they don't have to be punishing to the players. Remember years ago when we had to run all day (and night) to get where we were going in an MMO? Now we have portals and taxis. Did those taxis and portals remove any fun? Well, I suppose if you thought it was fun to watch your character's posterior for hours as it ran across landscape, sure. But I think for the majority of players removing the travel tedium helped games. Remember death penalties that set you back a bunch of experience... or when you dropped items on death and the only way to get them back was to get back to your corpse? Remember carrying a bunch of high-value "junk" items that would drop before your awesome bow in order to protect that bow from the first few deaths, just in case you couldn't get back to your corpse? Those death penalties discouraged risk-taking - also called fun by some - in games. Modern MMOs have very light death penalties. Sometimes you have a corpse run but it's usually short. Sometimes you have very inexpensive ingame currency payments for few deaths. Did the removal of punitive death penalties remove fun from the game? I suppose if you thought it was fun to lose your best weapon because you died to lag in a spot you cannot possibly get back to, sure. But I think for the majority of players removing harsh death penalties helped games. Second generation MMOs - think Warcraft and SWTOR - did a lot to make the genre more fun and less punishing, tedious, and boring for players. They increased the chances that players would take risks and in so doing reap great rewards not just in ingame loot but in sense of accmoplishment. The problem we have here is that SWTOR isn't even a true second-generation MMO yet. It has a UI and game mechanics that must still be struggled with in order to get done what you need to get done ingame. The lack of a useful LFG tool is just one of the problems that makes this game more of a 1.75 gen than 2nd gen. The only real advancement this game made is its fully-voiced quests, and those are only fun the first time through (and for some players not even the first time through). Otherwise, the games features place it far, far behind current competition - not just WoW and Rift, but also many F2P titles. In a few months, a 2.5 gen game will ship. It may not have all the 2.0 gen features (like an LFG tool; at least not at launch), but it will make interesting advancements in the social aspects of MMOs. For example, the game will incent players to help each other, rather than ignore each other or compete with each other, out in the wilderness. It will also include cooperative combat features that advance upon the concepts LotRO brought to the genre. It will include free server transfers once a week. In a year, yet another MMO will ship and this one could be nearly a 3rd generation MMO. It will be fully voiced. It will promote social, cooperative gameplay rather than competition similar to the one that will ship in a few months. It may ship with additional advances we don't know about yet. Yet here in SWTOR-land, we have developers who think that publishing a 1.5 generation MMO with voice-over is a brilliant leap... and they are either too fearful or too conceited to recognize the leap they took was backwards. BIoWare's resistance to X-LFG is but one symptom of a systemic problem within the SWTOR development organization. If they don't solve the core problem, their game will certainly become the next SWG or LotRO or D&DO - small but rabidly dedicated subscriber base. If that's what they want, great. I was hoping for more. Edited May 30, 2012 by DarthTHC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallorik Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 (edited) That means that the inclusion of features means the disclusion of others if the developer wants to release the game in less than a decade. Usually, the feature to suffer is LFG, because statistics have shown that a very small, tiny population actually use it in the first few months of launch. It's just not worth it. LOL that is not some mystical law, where do you get your info that a game cannot be released fully functioning with all of the important features? Just because no game has done it in 10 years does not prove it is not possible, the only thing that has proven is gamnes fail when they try to launch withut them and do not add them very quickly. Its just my opinion but based on biowares actions i dont believe swtor falls under this situation anyways, The devs did not release with features standard in 15 year old games like macros and a combat window, those were not cut because of time or money, it was cut because they had some misinformed notion that mmo gamers did not want those features in their game. And is also obvious in their resistance to dual specs and an automated lfg tool as well as their current stance on x server lfg. In otherwords, they didnt just leave them out because they didnt have the time or money, the left them out because they dont know what they are doing. Edited May 30, 2012 by Mallorik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skidrowbro Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 Rift, living proof that 250k players wanted x-server LFG. The other 750k who didn't want it, left. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeramieCrowe Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 Rift, living proof that 250k players wanted x-server LFG. The other 750k who didn't want it, left. More people left than the peak all-time subs of 600k? Interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthTHC Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 Rift, living proof that 250k players wanted x-server LFG. The other 750k who didn't want it, left. SWTOR, proof that 700k players didn't want X-LFG. The other 1.4 million who did want it, left. See what I did there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AH-Mael Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 The idea of wanting to foster a server community in an MMO is dead. This is not a sandbox game like SWG. There are not base defenses or attacks that large numbers of players gather at. There are not player towns. The only real community in an MMO now is the guilds. My server has a pretty decent pop and it is still incredibly hard to find a group and I am a healer. Hate to see what it is like for a DPS. I don't think that there should be a raid LFG. WoW went overboard on that one. There should definitely be a Flashpoint one though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trollokdamus Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 Rift, living proof that 250k players wanted x-server LFG. The other 750k who didn't want it, left. Yeah, that horrible horrible LFG tool was the sole reason for 750k players to leave. You're funny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skidrowbro Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 More people left than the peak all-time subs of 600k? Interesting. They had just over a million subs, they are now sitting comfortably with 16 shards and roughly 250k players Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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