Powertech Pyrotech deserve the HUGE nerf

[Scoobings]

Even if RS doesn't proc, you can still use it again after 15s (But it will usually proc before that, ofc.). A Concealment Op can hidden strike ONCE, period.

 

Or are you telling me you only use your burst combo once per battle? Well, I guess it's true that you usually might, since it's so OP that people don't survive it - but that doesn't mean you can't keep using it over and over, against the same target or a different one.

 

I can't believe you're even trying to argue this.

 

I think he's referring to the CD of thermal detonator, when he said you can only use the full opener once every 15 seconds.

[xBloodcrazed]

Even if RS doesn't proc, you can still use it again after 15s (But it will usually proc before that, ofc.). A Concealment Op can hidden strike ONCE, period.

 

Or are you telling me you only use your burst combo once per battle? Well, I guess it's true that you usually might, since it's so OP that people don't survive it - but that doesn't mean you can't keep using it over and over, against the same target or a different one.

 

I can't believe you're even trying to argue this.

 

Yes, you can only use that combo once per battle, its rare TD will be off cooldown at the same time as RS once engaged in battle.

 

and no you cant kill someone then bounce to the next target and do the same opener unless you dont use FB or RP and let the full 15 seconds cooldown reset RS but then theres 15 seconds where you do almost no damage at all.

[MobiusZero]

Yes, you can only use that combo once per battle, its rare TD will be off cooldown at the same time as RS once engaged in battle.

 

and no you cant kill someone then bounce to the next target and do the same opener unless you dont use FB or RP and let the full 15 seconds cooldown reset RS but then theres 15 seconds where you do almost no damage at all.

 

Kind of like how an Operative who tries to re-enter stealth does no damage at all. Except not as bad. And not 0 damage. Oh, who are we kidding? It's not even comparable...

[Winkywinky]

Is this a joke? You are seriously comparing flame burst to these skills?

 

Only noobs use Overload Shot. Rifle Shot (our free skill) is more efficient than this skill, so anyone that knows anything about the class knows to use it instead.

 

If you are comparing flame burst itself to these skills, sure, it's not the best skill in the world. But you know damn well that the main reason it's so good, is that it has 100% chance to apply Combustible Gas Cylinder. And then Railshot re-applies it afterward.

 

Overload Shot does nothing but damage...it doesn't have a 2 second slow that can be re-applied over and over again, like Flame Burst. It also isn't a combo move for the best burst skill in the game.

 

what people are trying to say is its the same ability minus the talents...so when 1 person says you cant spam overload shot but you can spam flame burst, well we have a error right?...

 

Again, they are exactly the same. Energy regens at exactly the same rate, and has exactly the same size pool, as heat. The moves also have comparable costs.

honestly ammo the the worst energy management....you cant regain 1/2 a ammo like you can 5 extra heat or energy....again this is really just BS because it really doesnt matter....who cares

 

Perhaps your spec or play-style is less demanding on energy in comparison, but that's probably because you spam your faceroll DPS rotation so much as PT.

 

really?.....we keep pointing out that the DPS rotation is 5 buttons and really isnt any harder then most other specs and class's but you keep forgetting this so how can we take anything you say and not call BS....

 

You don't have to keep them slowed ALL the time. Even keeping them off you half the time, reduces their damage by 50%. Nobody ever said you can kite people and avoid taking any damage at all.

 

we keep pointing out that fame bursting to slow sucks and healt/ammo is expensive compared to other melee class's that have slows at 6-12 seconds and are fire and forget while PT has to cast flame burst just about after each cast to keep the 2 second slow up...

 

im play a Vanguard...if i want to slow someone for 6 seconds i have to waste 6 ammo but a shadow only has to spend 15 force and is still a 10m ability but has a 12 second cd...then we get into how its spamable then people say it isnt because it costs alot and you just dont seem to get it like others do..

 

other melee have better slows and you are compaining about a 2 second slow that costs a ton to use IF we want to try to keep people snared...how can we not laff at this...i mean really

 

And as far as catching them, if they are running....I'd say your slow is way more than ample, along with grapple, considering you have 10-30m range abilities. If you can't kill a target trying to run, as Pyro, it's basically a L2P issue.

 

honesty that grapple was a L2P issue...

 

I think people have used the term "spam-able" a bit too loosely, and that's given you PT's a field day arguing your side of things. It's like telling my girlfriend "you never do this!" when in reality she does sometimes, just not nearly often enough. Sadly when arguing, we tend to make statements that exaggerate or are too extreme, even though we are pointing to a valid problem.

honestly you are not pointing out any problem....again it costs a ton to keep someone snared for any long perird of time like i said above...if you have a problem with burst then keep it to burst but argueing about this 2 snd slow is funny as hell.....all it does is prove you haven't really played a PT/Van which is why you see the peeps come out and complaining...

 

In the case of flame burst, sure you can't mash the button infinitely, but you can certainly keep it up most of the time, just by doing your DPS rotation. It's a free slow, in the context that it's applied when using moves you'd already be using anyways, for DPS. Most slows that other classes have, must be applied specifically for the slow, and require that extra bit of effort, and have a cooldown. Also, by "spam-able" people mean that it is instant and that it has no CD - it stands to reason it's not infinitely spam-able if all you do is mash the button over and over without allowing any energy to regen (which I think I talked about anyways, previously, and factored that you can do it like 8 times, actually doing nothing but mashing it, before overheating.).

 

its not a FREE SLOW... its 16 heat or 2 ammo.. that ability is mainly used to refrsh RS/HIB and YES to keep distance on other melee...do we use it to finish people off also? YES

 

but again were back at you not understanding that it costs alot and im going to get a post explaining that you do when you keep typing stuff which makes it seem that you dont....

 

A Concealment Op's burst can only be applied ONCE, because it requires stealth. It can basically be a huge handicap, being forced to re-enter stealth to actually have any good damage capability. Because of the way stealth works here, and the huge length of time it can take to re-enter it, your DPS being so heavily reliant on stealth can actually be a crutch.

 

Actually, other than the fact that Concealment used to be OP, this is exactly why I changed to Lethality a long time ago, because I realized how much of a crutch stealth was for them.[

 

it seems with OPS/Scoundrel are trying to be balanced around healing even if they are speced for DPS,,,it seems they expect them to be spot healing themselves even tho its not really feasible....back before 1.2 it was probly ok to do that with the TTK so long but now its just a joke..

 

i cant stand trying to compare class's to try to argue a point because every class is different...OP/Scroundrel is so far from how a PT/VAN are that it cant really be done.

[Vodrin]

You obviously can't kite a sniper, so that point is moot.

 

And the rage move has a 18s cooldown, and is not a full 50% slow like yours (It's 30%, averaged.), and you can break it with Degauss.

 

Again, of course they get tools to catch you. But it's still not as good as a 50% slow you can apply at will. They will certainly be able to attack you, but your ability to kite them is incredible, and should reduce their DPS on you significantly.

 

A rage jug should never allow a pyro to kite them. They have a selection of abilities that makes kiting them impossible if they are played well. As a jug's burst rotation also does more damage than a pyro's guess who should always win that matchup?

[Fdzzaigl]

The problem is that Ion Pulse / Flame burst, the core ability of your rotation that is spammable; is elemental damage why bypasses armor and defenses, also automatically applies a dot effect over 6secs which is also elemental damage, snares the target for 2 seconds, and resets the cooldown on High Impact Bolt every 6 seconds. High Impact Bolt ignores 90% of the targets armor and hits for about as hard as a Gunslingers well Aimed Shot except that it's instant cast and can be used every 6 seconds instead of only every 15 seconds. What is broken is that 75% of an Assault Vanguard/PT Pyros offense are based on these two abilities. Seems like some developer just got lazy.

 

What needs to be done is they need to spread the Assault Vanguard/PT Pyros DPS over more abilities with casting times as opposed to just pressing 1 instant cast spammable attack and doing 4 things at once. Currently Ion Pulse/Flame Burst is like a way more powerful version of prenerf Tracer Missles.

 

Ion Pulse doesn't have the same hard hitting potential as charged burst.

Thing is: because it is elemental damage, it ALWAYS hits for about the same amount (as I said 1.1k -2.2k in BM gear with assault spec), which might be comparable to Aimed Burst on some targets, but on other targets, that have been debuffed or have lower armor rating, Aimed Burst hits harder, because of the higher base damage.

That is what I notice on my gunslinger, and she has far worser gear than my vanguard.

 

You should remember that both abilities have the same effective cooldown through GCD, except one allows you to be mobile, the other does not.

 

A comparison to the Tracer Missile spam is ridiculous, TM's hit way harder, as well as the whole debuff + resource manage thing that mercs base around it. If you see a pyro only spamming flame burst like arsenal mercs do tracer missile, they will run out of resources and you should be able to kill them no problem.

Resource management is a big freaking deal when playing assault / pyro.

 

As for resetting rail shot: a good pyro will save his rocket punch for that and will only rely on flame burst to put the dot on a target, or as a filler attack should the rest of his stuff be on CD, or to prevent a target from getting away / trying to kite a jugg / mara.

 

A vanguard is a mobile class first and foremost, there isn't a single second in a fight where we aren't moving (or where we shouldn't be moving at least), adding cast times to BASE ABILITIES of a class that needs to remain in 10 meters would mean you kill this class. Not only in PvP but in PvE as well.

 

I play a vanguard tank too, how the frak would I be supposed to tank multi-mob encounters with mobs spread out over half the room, or bosses that need to be moved (example: Lost Island first / last / bonus boss) when I need to cast my main abilities in 10m.

 

People say this a lot but is that really true? You can't do *anything* about it? What about kiting the rocket punch? Knocking the PT back? How about accuracy debuffs (obfuscate, diversion for instance) to block the rail shots? Bubble? Scrambling field? How about stunning them? Mez and move back? Damage reduction cooldowns/consumables such as warzone adrenals? Dodge? Resilience to block the tech attacks?

 

Depending on your class there are probably at least 4-5 things you can do to kite or mitigate the PT's damage. None of those things involve standing still rolling your fingers across 1-4 buttons.

 

Yes, you can do something about it, but to be fair, in a PvP fight with tons of stuff going on, pre-emptive use of cooldowns to counter rail shot is unlikely.

 

What people should learn though, is to LoS. It is such an unbelievably lost art in TOR, and a great strategy against Pyro's.

 

So how high would you rate it in comparison to a team of stunlocking operatives and their ability to make people unsub?

 

0.0, all of that is forum whining. or we'd all have quit before they implemented 50 brackets and before the first operative nerf.

And most certainly after the general lowered TTK in 1.2 (which did make a lot of people quit).

 

Repetition and lack of enticing content is what makes people quit.

Edited June 1, 2012 by Fdzzaigl

[MobiusZero]

really?.....we keep pointing out that the DPS rotation is 5 buttons and really isnt any harder then most other specs and class's but you keep forgetting this so how can we take anything you say and not call BS....

 

Keep telling yourself that. Pretty much everyone who has played a PT, myself included, knows it's one of the easiest specs to play, probably THE easiest.

 

we keep pointing out that fame bursting to slow sucks and healt/ammo is expensive compared to other melee class's that have slows at 6-12 seconds and are fire and forget while PT has to cast flame burst just about after each cast to keep the 2 second slow up...

 

The key word here being "melee." Melee = 4m range to attack you. Your skills = 10-30m to attack them. With one stun you can gain that 30m on them, all the while DPSing them as you run, and DPSing them as they close the gap. Ahhh, the beauty of range vs. melee...

 

And the ONLY class that gets a slow that's nearly as good as yours, is a tanksin. You can degauss the first round of it, and anything after that is a 30% slow, as opposed to your 50% slow. Since they are melee, and have a worse slow, chances are, if you are any good at kiting, they will be far from able to DPS you 100% of the time. Oh, and let's not forget that tanksins are also overpowered.

 

And don't give me this "fire and forget" nonsense. You're already going to be using flame burst. They actually have to be conscience of using their slow, and activate it apart from their DPS rotation, unlike you.

 

honestly you are not pointing out any problem....again it costs a ton to keep someone snared for any long perird of time like i said above...if you have a problem with burst then keep it to burst but argueing about this 2 snd slow is funny as hell.....all it does is prove you haven't really played a PT/Van which is why you see the peeps come out and complaining...

 

Again, it costs you absolutely NOTHING to use flame burst, because it ALREADY is a part of your DPS rotation. Between flame burst, rapid fire, and railshot, you should have no trouble keeping them snared most of the fight.

 

If you can't kite someone as a PT, it's a L2P issue. And again, by kite, I don't mean avoiding ALL damage. Even avoiding 10% of damage would be significant !

 

its not a FREE SLOW... its 16 heat or 2 ammo.. that ability is mainly used to refrsh RS/HIB and YES to keep distance on other melee...do we use it to finish people off also? YES

 

Again, it's a side effect of your DPS rotation. IMO, that = free. You're using flame burst to pull off the best burst in the game, and the snare is a free side effect.

 

but again were back at you not understanding that it costs alot and im going to get a post explaining that you do when you keep typing stuff which makes it seem that you dont....

 

Ok, let me just put it this way to you. You want to talk heat costs, let's talk heat costs. Every 3 seconds, you will regenerate the amount of heat needed to flame burst. So if you flame burst someone every 3 seconds, that means they are slowed 66% of the fight, and you will never overheat. If you toss in rapid fires in between, then that means that roughly every other 3 seconds, you can re-apply the slow for free. So between this, and heat reducing abilities, you COULD actually perma-snare someone.

 

Of course, there's other factors in PvP, and other abilities you might use heat on, and I am not ignorant to this, but the fact is, you should have no trouble keeping your snare up most of a fight, between rapid fire, railshot reapplying it, and flame burst reapplying it. You also get stuns to help you put distance, and Degauss.

 

i cant stand trying to compare class's to try to argue a point because every class is different...OP/Scroundrel is so far from how a PT/VAN are that it cant really be done.

 

I disagree with this. The ONLY way to balance classes, is to compare them to other classes.

Edited June 1, 2012 by MobiusZero

[MobiusZero]

A rage jug should never allow a pyro to kite them. They have a selection of abilities that makes kiting them impossible if they are played well. As a jug's burst rotation also does more damage than a pyro's guess who should always win that matchup?

 

First of all, I'm not claiming that PT's can't lose to melee. I'm just pointing out that if played properly, they can actually beat melee classes, and aren't so squishy, as they claim to be.

 

Of course a rage jugg has many ways to stop a Pyro from kiting. But no matter what a rage jugg does, he will not be able to be in melee range of the Pyro 100% of the fight. Every moment the Pyro can escape 4m range, he is still able to DPS the melee at max potential, whereas the melee will do no damage. A decent Pyro who is good at kiting should absolutely be able to 1v1 a rage jugg.

[Scoobings]

First of all, I'm not claiming that PT's can't lose to melee. I'm just pointing out that if played properly, they can actually beat melee classes, and aren't so squishy, as they claim to be.

 

Of course a rage jugg has many ways to stop a Pyro from kiting. But no matter what a rage jugg does, he will not be able to be in melee range of the Pyro 100% of the fight. Every moment the Pyro can escape 4m range, he is still able to DPS the melee at max potential, whereas the melee will do no damage. A decent Pyro who is good at kiting should absolutely be able to 1v1 a rage jugg.

 

Kiting a GOOD rage jug or marauder is next to impossible. Luckily for us, most of them aren't any good at all At least not on my server.

[MobiusZero]

Kiting a GOOD rage jug or marauder is next to impossible. Luckily for us, most of them aren't any good at all At least not on my server.

 

Another thing to consider is whether those +accuracy enhancements are so bad, after all, since so many strive to swap them out when they get WH gear. With enough accuracy, saber ward is pretty useless against you.

[xBloodcrazed]

Mobius

 

are you arguing that the slow is too powerful or is it the burst or maybe the aoe you have problems with? next you'll say we have 30m execute moves at 40%. well maybe not but it does seem like you want to argue for the sake of arguing Has it ever crossed your mind that the slow is the only way a pyro can be effective? without the slow and the ability to kite the class would be broken, without kiting how else can i win a dps race to 30% when warriors/agents are involved? Guess what even if i win the race to 30% in a toe to toe fight i dont have an execute move.

 

Anyways please tell me how a pyro can be effective without the slow? whats to prevent every range class from kiting with impunity or any melee forcing a face to face confrontation where i gotta burn 100% of their life before i get to 30% since executes are one hit finishers.

 

please tell me how the slow which is such a core mech of a pyro is OP in that context? and please give some suggestions on how we can maybe tone down the slow but still be able to effectively be in range and kite when needed? Perhaps we can argue that the front loaded burst of a pyro can be lowered when we are given an execute move which would make a pyro just like everyone else which is the whole point of this thread right?

Edited June 1, 2012 by xBloodcrazed

[Vodrin]

Of course a rage jugg has many ways to stop a Pyro from kiting. But no matter what a rage jugg does, he will not be able to be in melee range of the Pyro 100% of the fight. Every moment the Pyro can escape 4m range, he is still able to DPS the melee at max potential, whereas the melee will do no damage. A decent Pyro who is good at kiting should absolutely be able to 1v1 a rage jugg.

 

This is true to an extent, but playing a jug as my main I will say that there is no way a decent rage jug should lose more than 25% of the time in a 1v1 situation versus an equally geared pyro. The matchup simply favors the jug.

 

Look my main point is this. You say that PT pyro is this extremely OP faceroll class. The problem with this statement is that player choices don't seem to support this. There is a tendency by PvPers to gravitate towards the classes that are stronger and are easy to play well. Previously we say a huge number of sorcs/sages in warzones, and currently there are a flood of marauders. But despite this supposed OPness, you rarely see more than 1 or two pyros in an evening. If they really were the super strong class you claim, we would see the population slanted that way, and you just don't see it.

Edited June 1, 2012 by Vodrin

[Scoobings]

Another thing to consider is whether those +accuracy enhancements are so bad, after all, since so many strive to swap them out when they get WH gear. With enough accuracy, saber ward is pretty useless against you.

 

I had considered that thought. The thing is, if we don't remod our gear then we don't hit the big numbers so in the end it boils down to would you rather have consistent good damage, or Really high inconsistent.

 

Since it's burst that kills, I'd rather have really high, mitigatable damage I think. What you bring up is definitely food for thought though.

[Winkywinky]

Keep telling yourself that. Pretty much everyone who has played a PT, myself included, knows it's one of the easiest specs to play, probably THE easiest.

 

you are just a troll...the spec isnt any harder then my focus bomb guard or my Infiltration shadow....

 

The key word here being "melee." Melee = 4m range to attack you. Your skills = 10-30m to attack them. With one stun you can gain that 30m on them, all the while DPSing them as you run, and DPSing them as they close the gap. Ahhh, the beauty of range vs. melee...

and here we go again you not playing a PT/Van thinking they have this sweet 30m dps that just destroys people...

 

And he ONLY class that gets a slow that's nearly as good as yours, is a tanksin. You can degauss the first round of it, and anything after that is a 30% slow, as opposed to your 50% slow. Since they are melee, and have a worse slow, chances are, if you are any good at kiting, they will be far from able to DPS you 100% of the time. Oh, and let's not forget that tanksins are also overpowered.

 

now were at the part that the PT has every CD up and this (insert class here) has none and is fighting with 500 ms lag

 

And don't give me this "fire and forget" nonsense. You're already going to be using flame burst. They actually have to be conscience of using their slow, and activate it apart from their DPS rotation, unlike you.

 

rofl...again were at the part where you think 2 second slow is game breaking because ( insert class here ) cant counter it...

 

Again, it costs you absolutely NOTHING to use flame burst, because it ALREADY is a part of your DPS rotation. Between flame burst, rapid fire, and railshot, you should have no trouble keeping them snared most of the fight.

yea it part of the rotation.....2 second snare vs the GCD of 1.5 second....GAME BREAKING

 

If you can't kite someone as a PT, it's a L2P issue. And again, by kite, I don't mean avoiding ALL damage. Even avoiding 10% of damage would be significant !

Again, it's a side effect of your DPS rotation. IMO, that = free. You're using flame burst to pull off the best burst in the game, and the snare is a free side effect.

 

you can only kite people who are BAD... you can create some distance only against good players....you cant kite great players

 

Ok, let me just put it this way to you. You want to talk heat costs, let's talk heat costs. Every 3 seconds, you will regenerate the amount of heat needed to flame burst. So if you flame burst someone every 3 seconds, that means they are slowed 66% of the fight, and you will never overheat. If you toss in rapid fires in between, then that means that roughly every other 3 seconds, you can re-apply the slow for free. So between this, and heat reducing abilities, you COULD actually perma-snare someone.

 

i didnt know i could kill someone using Flame burst and auto attack(lol).....again were now at this point that (insert class here) dies to a PT that is just using flame burst and auto attack...

 

Of course, there's other factors in PvP, and other abilities you might use heat on, and I am not ignorant to this, but the fact is, you should have no trouble keeping your snare up most of a fight, between rapid fire, railshot reapplying it, and flame burst reapplying it. You also get stuns to help you put distance, and Degauss.

LOOK... you cant keep up the snare up for a entire fight against any other melee class worth a dam... you will run out of juice trying to dps and keeping snare up... but then again you play in this other game where people just auto attack to kill others right?

 

I disagree with this. The ONLY way to balance classes, is to compare them to other classes.

 

you misunderstood...maybe its my fault there...when you try to compare class's you get all the crap we are typing now...people compare Overload to FB (which is really just the same ability ) then you get other factors added on that cant be compared ...TALENTS

 

honestly again....i can honestly say you dont play a PT/Van at 50 .....because if you did i would not have to type anything above...

 

IF THE PROBLEM IS BURST then stay with that...you might get some PT/Vans that will agree with you but when you complain about a 2 second slow you pretty much just made any argument LOL....

 

 

all i know is i have 2 other melee DPS and i have no problem with any PT/Van trying to kite me....on my jugg i just Force Push (10m) resets Force Leap or Force Stasis (10m) and now the snare is off of me to try and apply my snare...on my shadow Force Stun is 30m so LOL at kiting or use Resilience and LOL...on my Van its grapple or stun..

 

again ANYONE who tries to complain about the 2 snd snare when i can easily beat it with 3/5 melee class's needs to L2P..

[Gidoru]

Kiting a GOOD rage jug or marauder is next to impossible..

 

100% false statement. Unless you what you consider to be kiting is staying out of melee range of the Jug or Marauder the entire fight.

If u cant kite a Marauder or Jug atleast 20% of the fight then you dont know what you're doing period. And before you say something like OH NOES 20%. That is a considerable amount of time that the melee class is dealing 0 damage to you.

[Gidoru]

and here we go again you not playing a PT/Van thinking they have this sweet 30m dps that just destroys people...

Id consider the ability to deal atleast 8k damage from 30m in about 3 seconds between rail shot and thermal detenator pretty good, but thats just me. Apparently seeing as how you're used to killing people in 6 seconds with your overpowered class i guess that doesnt seem like a lot.

rofl...again were at the part where you think 2 second slow is game breaking because ( insert class here ) cant counter it...

You conviently fail to mention the fact that the 2 second slow is continually reapplied so while it may only last 2 seconds one 1 application your target is certainly slowed for much longer than that.

you can only kite people who are BAD... you can create some distance only against good players....you cant kite great players

If you cant kite any player atleast some of the time then you are bad. Again kiting is not avoiding damage for an entire fight. You gain distance some of the time you mitigate damage.

you misunderstood...maybe its my fault there...when you try to compare class's you get all the crap we are typing now...people compare Overload to FB (which is really just the same ability ) then you get other factors added on that cant be compared ...TALENTS

An ability that no one uses and is not part of the normal rotation of a class is not the same as an ability that is part of the normal rotation and is responsbile for 2 very important procs. Keep trying to compare it tho.

IF THE PROBLEM IS BURST then stay with that...you might get some PT/Vans that will agree with you but when you complain about a 2 second slow you pretty much just made any argument LOL....

Responding to someone that says a 2 second slow is worthless or that PTs have no way to kite isnt the same as complaining that the slow is overpowered. Pretty sure he was simply trying to make the point that the slow is a good and important part of the class that allows you to kite and thus mitigate damage.

all i know is i have 2 other melee DPS and i have no problem with any PT/Van trying to kite me....on my jugg i just Force Push (10m) resets Force Leap or Force Stasis (10m) and now the snare is off of me to try and apply my snare...on my shadow Force Stun is 30m so LOL at kiting or use Resilience and LOL...on my Van its grapple or stun..

1. Glad you can use a 1 minute cooldown to maybe drop the PT 20/30% of his health. What about the other 70%?

2. Electrocute has a 30m range. Too bad PTs have a 4 second stun with a 30m range as well? At best you trade off taking turns stunning each other. If you can kill a PT in 4 seconds on your shadow then you must be fighting naked Powertechs.

Edited June 1, 2012 by Gidoru

[Scoobings]

100% false statement. Unless you what you consider to be kiting is staying out of melee range of the Jug or Marauder the entire fight.

If u cant kite a Marauder or Jug atleast 20% of the fight then you dont know what you're doing period. And before you say something like OH NOES 20%. That is a considerable amount of time that the melee class is dealing 0 damage to you.

 

You can put range between yourself and a warrior, but if you're able to stay out of melee range for 20% of the fight against any spec of jugg or maurader then they fail.

 

Maurader you could maybe put range between you and him for 20%, I could see that. After they use charge to gap close the first time, and camo to gap close the second time, and you're fortunate enough to have energy shield, and they'r stupid enough to snare you when you haven't used energy shield yet. Yeah you could probably from that point on put some good distance between the two of you. Of course, then they'll probably just activate saber ward or Obfuscate, or Cloak of pain, or maybe if they're feeling sassy 2 of those, until their charge is back up.

 

If that's not how the fight plays out, then the maurader is either unfortunate enough to have blown all his CDs and have over-extended or you caught him out of position. That wouldn't make him BAD I suppose, but it wouldn't make him good either.

 

This would also, of course, be assuming you both have CC breakers up. There are a lot of factors to take into account when saying something like "You can't kite good mauraders and warriors." I would be making the assumption that they start on even footing and have all their CDs up... in which case the PT really shouldn't be able to get range for very long at all. If he did, marauder screwed up.

[Elkirin]

OP Basically , calls for nerfs come from players on populated servers.

 

Those who already have no chance to get a daily done each day would likely prefer to reach out and touch the;

 

"please nerf this class and remove more players" posters.

 

I understand you have difficulties with the class. I would suggest;

 

play the class awhile

then post to the forums constructive methods to beat that class,

 

Post in a manner that does not further erode the player base, some posters have done this and I appreciate it.

 

 

Thank you.

Edited June 1, 2012 by Elkirin

[Gidoru]

You can put range between yourself and a warrior, but if you're able to stay out of melee range for 20% of the fight against any spec of jugg or maurader then they fail.

Really? explain to me how a Jugg is going to close in on you with a 15 second force leap CD with a 10m dead zone and force push on a 1 min CD? Pretty sure there is a lot of time inbetween those 2 cooldowns to kite. Also pretty sure good Powertechs know how to abuse the distance inbetween meele range and the dead zone to avoid getting leaped to again.

 

Marauder is in better shape but its not impossible to kite by any stretch. Simple example Stun right when the leaps on you, slow. Even if he breaks out of the stun you have effectively gained distance for quite a few seconds.

 

In order to slow you a Marauder or Jugg needs to use both rage and a global and therefore does not deal any damage to you. In order to slow a Marauder or Jugg you simply need to follow your normal DPS rotation and do damage while slowing.

Edited June 1, 2012 by Gidoru

[Gidoru]

play the class awhile

then post to the forums constructive methods to beat that class,

 

Sorry but comments like this make me laugh.

 

You're basically telling people to find a constructive way to beat an overpowered class through practice as though there are an infinite amount of strategies and little nuanced tricks to work it. Sorry but this is a MMO not Starcraft 2. There is a very small list of things you can do to 'counter' something, mostly limited to class abilities. When you have exhausted that small list, guess what? There is nothing else you can do and a class, like Powertech, simply needs to be nerfed.

Edited June 1, 2012 by Gidoru

[Scoobings]

Really? explain to me how a Jugg is going to close in on you with a 15 second force leap CD with a 10m dead zone and force push on a 1 min CD? Pretty sure there is a lot of time inbetween those 2 cooldowns to kite.

Marauder is in better shape but its not impossible to kite by any stretch. Simple example Stun right when the leaps on you, slow. Even if he breaks out of the stun you have effectively gained distance for quite a few seconds.

 

In order to slow you a Marauder or Jugg needs to use both rage and a global and therefore does not deal any damage to you. In order to slow a Marauder or Jugg you simply need to follow your normal DPS rotation and do damage while slowing.

 

It would really depend on what spec the Jugg was. The major selling points that prevent Jugs from being kited in each tree:

 

Tank: Chilling scream has an 8m range, and is free, that closes the deadzone to 2 meters. After lag and netcoding is taken into account the deadzone is pretty much nonexistent. They also have a massive amount of stuns on you, quantity wise. If you somehow manage to get 10m on them, and don't fall into that deadzone they have charge to gap close, and of course at 10 meters force push to reset charge.

 

Veng: The major selling point of this tree, obviously, is the immunity to CC every time they charge. So you're rooted for 3 seconds, and they're immune to snares for 4. That will give you 11 seconds to try to put range between yourself and them, but if they feel you slipping out of range they can force push to close the gap, or they can choke to buy some time. Again, chilling scream is in the equation too, but in my experience it's generally not worth the rage, unless you really think they'll get away. You're probably looking at maybe being able to actually put some range between you and the Jugg 2-3 seconds every 15 seconds, but if you do it's only because they're letting you have that range.

 

Rage: There's a lot of factors here again, there's crush but the odds are good that'll be what you degauss. They've got the same standard tools, push to charge of course. Choke they might not neccesarily use to buy time if they're going to go for a second smash. The big game changer here is obliterate which functions as charge part 2 and roots you. Rage has a pretty easy time keeping people in melee range too, if they don't have force speed.

 

That's just kind of a breakdown. I don't really want to go into a hypothetical combat situation with every spec as that woudl take too much time. But really, Jugs shouldn't be kited by anything other than inquisitors (granting even terrain of course which usually isn't the case).

 

*edit*

I'm getting off work now, and there's a good chance I won't check this thread again until the weekend is over. I just thought I'd throw my 2 cents out there when it comes to Juggs.

Edited June 1, 2012 by Scoobings

[MobiusZero]

please tell me how the slow which is such a core mech of a pyro is OP in that context? and please give some suggestions on how we can maybe tone down the slow but still be able to effectively be in range and kite when needed? Perhaps we can argue that the front loaded burst of a pyro can be lowered when we are given an execute move which would make a pyro just like everyone else which is the whole point of this thread right?

 

I'm not pointing out the effectiveness of the slow, because I think it should be nerfed. I'm pointing it out, to show that the class is in fact NOT squishy, like people keep trying to claim. By proving that they are not as defenseless as they claim, the argument that their squishiness justifies the insane burst damage, is no longer valid.

 

you are just a troll...the spec isnt any harder then my focus bomb guard or my Infiltration shadow....

 

So you are saying it's a difficult class to play? I'm not quite sure what you are trying to prove here. Just because certain other classes are easy to play, does not mean yours isn't too easy. Yours is far too easy to faceroll with, period.

 

and here we go again you not playing a PT/Van thinking they have this sweet 30m dps that just destroys people...

 

I don't know why I have to explain the dynamics of your own class to you.

 

My class actually works much the same way, except we have to move in to 4m to be effective. I start with my 30m moves, then as I or they close in, I use my closer range moves. Whether you are 30m, or 10m, the simple fact still remains, that melee can't hurt you.

 

rofl...again were at the part where you think 2 second slow is game breaking because ( insert class here ) cant counter it...

 

yea it part of the rotation.....2 second snare vs the GCD of 1.5 second....GAME BREAKING

 

Where did I say it was game breaking? In fact, I haven't even stated it should be nerfed (because it shouldn't.).

 

you can only kite people who are BAD... you can create some distance only against good players....you cant kite great players

 

I've already defined what is meant by "kiting." Remember my whole thing about avoiding even 10% of attacks? If you can't even mitigate that much by kiting even against a skilled player, then I hate to break it to you, but it's YOU who is bad.

 

i didnt know i could kill someone using Flame burst and auto attack(lol).....again were now at this point that (insert class here) dies to a PT that is just using flame burst and auto attack...

 

Oh, I didn't realize those attacks only do 0 damage. Oh wait, they don't...

Edited June 1, 2012 by MobiusZero

[Gidoru]

It would really depend on what spec the Jugg was. The major selling points that prevent Jugs from being kited in each tree:

Veng: The major selling point of this tree, obviously, is the immunity to CC every time they charge. So you're rooted for 3 seconds, and they're immune to snares for 4. That will give you 11 seconds to try to put range between yourself and them, but if they feel you slipping out of range they can force push to close the gap, or they can choke to buy some time. Again, chilling scream is in the equation too, but in my experience it's generally not worth the rage, unless you really think they'll get away.

1. As someone pointed out, the 3 second snare and 4 second immunity starts immeditely when you press force leap. Meaning that by the time the Jugg is actually on you and able to do anything, its more like 2s snare 3sec immunity as a result of animation and global.

2. Again Force push is on a 1min CD. Even if you go through 1 leap + 1 force push, if the PT has energy shield up he is likely to be at about 70% health at the least. Well what then? You have plenty of time to kite for your remaining 70%

3. There is literally no point in force choking a PT unless he is at low health. All it does it buy him time to get his Railshot proc back up meanwhile you deal 1k Force Choke damage? Trading 1k damage for 4k isnt exactly a good trade.

You're probably looking at maybe being able to actually put some range between you and the Jugg 2-3 seconds every 15 seconds, but if you do it's only because they're letting you have that range.

If Force push had a 15 second cooldown yes.

Again good PTs know how to kite just close enough to avoid getting leaped to and just far enough to avoid getting hit, Ive seen it done plenty of times.

Edited June 1, 2012 by Gidoru

[Winkywinky]

Id consider the ability to deal atleast 8k damage from 30m in about 3 seconds between rail shot and thermal detenator pretty good, but thats just me. Apparently seeing as how you're used to killing people in 6 seconds with your overpowered class i guess that doesnt seem like a lot.

you missed the Incendiary Round which is around 1k damage first hit... you also missed 6 seconds it takes for thermal detonator before it explodes...odds are its going to be TD>IR>RS 3 more seconds BOOM 7.5 seconds min

 

You conviently fail to mention the fact that the 2 second slow is continually reapplied so while it may only last 2 seconds one 1 application your target is certainly slowed for much longer than that.

 

again were back at someone who is just using FB the hole fight...i want to fight these guys..

 

If you cant kite any player atleast some of the time then you are bad. Again kiting is not avoiding damage for an entire fight. You gain distance some of the time you mitigate damage.

 

honestly this is a real good question...i really define kiting someone atleast 1/2 the fight.....honestly this is up to debate from person to person.

 

An ability that no one uses and is not part of the normal rotation of a class is not the same as an ability that is part of the normal rotation and is responsbile for 2 very important procs. Keep trying to compare it tho.

 

costs are the same, same damage, same CD ( none)......the only difference is TALENTS....so yes and no...which is the hole part of me saying i cant stand comparing class's.. untalented that are the same ability, talented they are not..but saying you can spam FB and not spam Overload is just BS....right? which is mainly where Overload came into the topic...

 

Responding to someone that says a 2 second slow is worthless or that PTs have no way to kite isnt the same as complaining that the slow is overpowered. Pretty sure he was simply trying to make the point that the slow is a good and important part of the class that allows you to kite and thus mitigate damage.

 

its not that its worthless...its just nothing to COMPLAIN about...if i was going to complain about a PT i would be arguing about back to back RS hits....NOT A 2 SND SLOW

 

1. Glad you can use a 1 minute cooldown to maybe drop the PT 20/30% of his health. What about the other 70%?

2. Electrocute has a 30m range. Too bad PTs have a 4 second stun with a 30m range as well? At best you trade off taking turns stunning each other. If you can kill a PT in 4 seconds on your shadow then you must be fighting naked Powertechs.

 

after distance(using those abilities) all you have to do is snare them..... if they degauss then re snare them or use another ability and vanish restarting the fight...ill admit i cant allways win ( more so on my shadow) but that 2 snd snare is the least of my problems that being back to back RS hits...

 

comon....maybe its hard for you but i can make sure a PT/Van cant kite me for more then a few seconds when i have my abilities up...its really a L2P....but if you wish to keep complaining about the 2 snd snare and have people LOL at anything you say then keep doing it..ill be more then happy to keep using the same arguments...

[Gidoru]

you missed the Incendiary Round which is around 1k damage first hit... you also missed 6 seconds it takes for thermal detonator before it explodes...odds are its going to be TD>IR>RS 3 more seconds BOOM 7.5 seconds min

The time it takes to explode is irrelevant. The fact of the matter is that you can do a large chunk of damage from 30m. Clearly 10m is optimal for highest DPS, but to say you dont do good damage at 30m is downright false.

again were back at someone who is just using FB the hole fight...i want to fight these guys..

Your autoattack procs the slow too does it not? Ive seen plenty of PTs that keep slow up while doing extremely high amounts of damage, i dont know what else to tell you, it happens. 100% uptime is not needed to kite.

honestly this is a real good question...i really define kiting someone atleast 1/2 the fight.....honestly this is up to debate from person to person.

So what do you call the time you're hitting the melee class and he isnt hitting you if its less than half the fight?

You cannot deny is that avoiding damage while out of melee range is mitigating damage for you. You certainly have the ability to be out of melee range regardless of the exact amount of time that it is possible. Whatever you want to call it, you do mitigate damage through kiting.

costs are the same, same damage, same CD ( none)......the only difference is TALENTS....so yes and no...which is the hole part of me saying i cant stand comparing class's.. untalented that are the same ability, talented they are not..but saying you can spam FB and not spam Overload is just BS....right? which is mainly where Overload came into the topic...

Cost is the same, damage is the same, CD is the same, USE IS NOT THE SAME. Again overload shot is never used. Flameburst is. Im not trying to argue that Flameburst is spammable or that its overpowered, simply that its not a remotely reasonable comparison seeing as overload is 100% worthless and might as well not be on your bar.

its not that its worthless...its just nothing to COMPLAIN about...if i was going to complain about a PT i would be arguing about back to back RS hits....NOT A 2 SND SLOW

I just said, no one is complaining. They are responding to people that said the slow is worthless. It is not. Arguing that something is not worthless is not the same as arguing something is too good.

after distance(using those abilities) all you have to do is snare them..... if they degauss then re snare them or use another ability and vanish restarting the fight...ill admit i cant allways win ( more so on my shadow) but that 2 snd snare is the least of my problems that being back to back RS hits...

You cannot vanish to reset against a PT as a result of the DoT unless you use Force Shroud . If you waste Force Shroud on a Vanish you auto lose the fight. An Assassin has about a 10% chance of beating a PT without Force Shrouding a DoT and atleast 1 thermal detenator. If you can beat him, hes bad.

comon....maybe its hard for you but i can make sure a PT/Van cant kite me for more then a few seconds when i have my abilities up...its really a L2P....but if you wish to keep complaining about the 2 snd snare and have people LOL at anything you say then keep doing it..ill be more then happy to keep using the same arguments...

No one is saying that a PT can kite forever. They are simply saying that they CAN in fact kite and that kiting mitigates damage. These things are indisputable.

Edited June 2, 2012 by Gidoru