Do you support an in game version of Recount. Please give reasons for your answer.

[Legendari]

I wouldn't mind having some kind of tool to gauge if the choices I'm making with my skill points and gear and making me better or worse. At the moment, I just have to blindly assume that everything just "works". Perhaps that's how Bioware wants to keep it right now because such a tool would quickly reveal balance issues and broken mechanics that might exist in the game, who knows.

 

I don't like the idea of people using such features to discriminate against other players, but that type of discrimination is going to happen with our without it. Somebody who sucks at the game could easily sit around crafting themselves top notch gear and still not know how to play their class, while somebody with mediocre gear might be a really good player and out-perform them. Without this type of feature, it will just force people to make the same decisions with less information.

Edited January 8, 2012 by Legendari

[Hairless]

You sound like a bad raid leader. If you need recount to successfully lead a raid in an mmorpg you need to review what you are doing. People are not damage numbers they are people. Most of you so called raid leaders just single out people at the low end of the dps list. Yet what if the guy at the top of the dps chart is only delivering on 80 % of his capacity and the guy at the bottom is at 95%. Instead of telling the guy at the top to improve you just replace the guy at the bottom with someone playing the same class as the guy at the top.

 

You just replaced one of your best players with someone playing an overpowered spec/class. That is not being a good raid leader.

 

Stop trying to pretend you know anything about raiding in WoW.

What you are describing is just a really bad player who put together a pug run.

Your scenario NEVER happens in a proper guild raid, whether it be casual or hardcore.

Even the raid leaders in casual, friends and family guild know that you don't compare 2 players and draw a conclusion solely based their DPS.

You just replaced one of your best players with someone playing an overpowered spec/class. That is not being a good raid leader.

 

Nope. Best players don't get replaced. The best players are never consistently on the bottom of the DPS that they get replaced by someone worse than them. And just so nobody gets on my *** for this, when I say DPS, I mean (damage done)/(time) aka sustained DPS. Not burst DPS.

People who get replaced are the ones that consistently make mistakes, do low dps, and cause dumb wipes on a progression boss.

Only exception would be if the progression boss had such a tightly tuned DPS requirement that it actually required class stacking or replacing the hybrids with pures. But this does not happen in your average pugs. And even then, most raid leaders would rather have the better player if the difference in DPS is minimal.

 

I love how people always make up the fictitious scenario where the better player is always doing lower dps for some reason.

In my years of competitive raiding in WoW, it has been the case that the better player usually does more DPS too, unless you are trying to compare a hybrid vs a pure.

[Dovahkien]

Personally i want it, it's a tool...All it is, if a few douches want to turn it into a measuring stick that's fine to. Just don't run with them, from a raid standpoint i would like them. Just so i know i'm doing my best.

[rjcain]

I understand where you are coming from (look at any Blizzard implement system and the 3rd party version). But I would counter argue that with how long recount (and other better versions) have been out that bioware's UI guys (who Im sure some have played WoW at some point) would be able to nearly replicate recount and even add in TOR specific features.

 

Considering that combat does not even seem to work in this game, I doubt they are in a hurry to give us something that proves that.

 

At this point I would settle for a combat log.

 

Maybe it can all be chalked up to the ability delay, but it is ever so annoying to see numbers flying above an enemies head, and his life not moving... or to take twice as long to kill an identical mob.

 

Or hit an ability for it to tell you the enemy is already dead, but he still manages to get off a few more shots before actually falling down.

 

The number one reason I liked Recount, was to tweak my own character's gear and spec choices, and then see how I compared to others. Otherwise you have Rift; a huge amount of choice, but no easy way to gage their value.

[Daedalin]

Weird. You would think bads were the ones who failed at content without recount and goods the ones who don't need training wheels to defeat combat.

 

Nice try claiming the good players are the ones who have to have the game made easier though.

 

How did he say they need training wheels? He clearly states that recount will show you who doesn't know how to play their class/doesn't care vs. someone who does.

 

As someone with moderate skill I do use recount to check my rotations and ensure if I'm doing my job. On Wow with a paladin, it's easy to get 22k heals. Just spam divine light until you went OOM. The bigger picture was could you get to 22k heals, and sustain that throughout the fight while having proper mana management.

 

Or even hunters, with proper focus mangement. I'm in 365 (or something like that) gear level on my hunter, yet I've out dps'd hunters in 375. Mainly because I know when you pop my 3 minute CD's, and weave in all my short dps increasing CD's. Really, every hunter that has whispered me and ask out I out dps'd them, it ALWAYS came down to proper buff and CD management.

 

BUT without recount, all the hard work I've put into my characters to learn them, would go to the next guy. Mainly because people would look at their gear, and assume they did the extra heals/dps and surely not the person in lesser gear. They would get the "holy crap this guy is ripping things apart" comments instead of I. That guy would get group reinvites whereas I might not.

 

If you don't want to be harassed about not performing well, well the answer is simple. Either

 

A.) Announce you are still learning at the beginning of a run. I've done this several times learning to heal in this game, and even when a wipe was caused that was my fault I was never abused.

B.) Take time to ask! Ask on the forums about proper rotations. Go read online guides. Duel a friend and ask them to just sit there while you practice rotations.

C.) Don't group. If you can't be bothered to improve yourself, or at least notify others that your new/learning then you don't need to be grouping in the first place.

[Lightmgl]

As much as people will flame this or disagree with this, DPS is a huge part of this game since pretty much everything endgame revolves around enrage timers. If there are enrage timers, SOME way to gauge a party and player's DPS is necessary.

 

Otherwise you just end up with "Why is this boss enraging?" or "I don't understand why we are wiping" when in reality you are wiping because somebody isn't dealing enough damage.

 

Hard time limits means DPS matters. Some of the enrage timers are incredibly unforgiving, especially at the beginning when you aren't geared in epic gear and you probably aren't completely comfortable with your class. You'll never get the gear to make it easier if you can't handle it in the first place.

 

If you really really don't want things like Recount or DPS Meters then you need to stop telling the devs that you don't want them and start telling them to remove DPS checks from the game because as long as fights have a DPS requirement, people will find some way to quantify it.

Edited January 8, 2012 by Lightmgl

[Zirithil]

No to Recount!

 

Only because I don't have a proper rotation and if Recount comes, I am gonna have to start following some kind of Max-Dps rotation. Right now I'm just fighting as I like and no one in the group knows how I am doing. Makes things more chilled out.

[Tal-N]

That is pathetic. If the flashpoint or op is completed with minimal problems then obviously I'm doing well enough to support the team. Raw DPS means nothing if everyone isn't working together and any good team leader who is paying attention can see where the problem is.

 

Measuring players by numbers is sheer laziness on part of the team leader. Be a leader, not an accountant.

[Hairless]

No to Recount!

 

Only because I don't have a proper rotation and if Recount comes, I am gonna have to start following some kind of Max-Dps rotation. Right now I'm just fighting as I like and no one in the group knows how I am doing. Makes things more chilled out.

 

No bro, this game turns into a job if I have to download a couple add-ons and spend 5 minutes on the class forums to look up the proper specs/rotation/stat priority that some really nice guy already calculated out for us. I am not some jobless nerd. I don't have time for doing research on the forums, even though I will come here to voice my opinion against damage meters. Don't let me get started on how long it takes to memorize the order of 4 spells that I need to use for maximum DPS. All this is way more complex than flipping burgers. This game might as well be a job.

[Vannor]

I don't really care. I've never used any form of DPS meter and the people I've played with since DAoC are more concerned about having fun with people we enjoy playing with than whether someone is maximizing their DPS.

 

Back in the day we turned seven friends in to a guild of 100 that cleared MC and BWL in WoW without bothering with DPS/heal meters.

[elenas]

No

 

In every other MMO I've played (apart for World of Addons), raids, instances, group quests/mssions were comfortably completed without the use, or the possibility of use, of any addons at all.

 

I enjoy playing the games 'as they are'. If they aren't good, or to my taste, I leave them alone. Also, if I chose to go into a Burger King for something to eat, knowing that I prefer McDonalds, I dont make demands to the staff working there to serve fries like the ones sold in McDonalds and throw tantrums if I dont get them. The answer to that would be P*** off back to McDonalds.

 

I firmly believe that BW should not submit to the forum-zerging tactics of a bunch of spoilt wow-brats who demand that every game they play should be structured around their idea of satisfaction and enjoyment. There are many people who play that game, for sure. But there are also many people who do not play that game, or who have never played that game, and want this game to at least have a glimmer of opportunity to create its own identity.

[Smiri]

As a DPS'er I'd love to see some form of dps meter built into the game.

 

I appreciate it does come with the problems of "your dps sucks" followed by a group kick, but in saying that its a DPS'ers job to deal damage.

 

Ask yourself this, if your in a group and the tank cant do his job and keeps losing threat, what you gonna do? And if the healer isn't doing his job and the tank keeps dying, what you gonna do? Chances are you will replace the tank/healer.

 

There is currently no way to see if DPS are doing their job properly.

 

Also, on a personal note, I personally had great use of things like training dummies in WoW coupled with dps meters to play with rotations/specs etc and see what worked. Dont get me wrong, I in no way want SWTOR to be WoW, I stopped playing that years ago cause I didnt like the direction it was going in. But I would like some way to "see" my character improving in his role, rather than making a blind judgement on equipping this piece of crit gear over that pice of power gear etc etc and just convincing myself I'm progressing, and the first piece of that puzzle is a dps meter.

 

On a side note, who said DPS meters have to be visible to the entire party, maybe one way of getting round the problem of idiots kicking people because theyre 200 dps short is to implement a personal damage meter, that the player and player alone can use to see only their damage.

Edited January 8, 2012 by Smiri

[noggerr]

Totally agree with OP, and Bioware has stated that eh UI will be modable, so i think a parser will be at hand.

 

And as OP also states, you might have some greens but perform really good. Without a parser the dude with worst gear will be kicked from the group if it keeps failing on taking down a boss, not the acual underperforming ones.. There is NO WHAT SO EVER counter argument to that, el facto is that a parser will make it just for everyone, not only tanks and healers will have all eyes on them, but also single DPSers, and thats just.

Edited January 8, 2012 by noggerr

[Dazgra]

Anyone who is against Recount or World of Logs etc. has clearly never been at the bleeding edge of PVE progression or in the highest ranks of PVP where the difference between success and failure lies in one mistake in your talent tree or using an ability at a sub-optimal time.

 

My guild was wiping all week on heroic nefarian, so we pored over the logs to see what was going wrong and it provided us with invaluable information

- Only 7 of 25 raiders using potions before combat started

- DPS interrupting at the wrong times

- DPS cancelling mind control too early

- Healers being too conservative and using cooldowns at the wrong times

- Offtank taking too much damage and reanimating adds from the fire on the ground

- Players neglecting to use potions during the fight

- Players with talent specs not suited to this particular fight

 

Without world of logs, how can we see who is dragging the chain? And don't tell me to 'open your eyes and see', there is too much going on in that fight to see what other players are doing

 

I honestly can't see how this game can be played at a decent level where content is genuinely challenging without some way to analyse data whether it be in game with Recount or otherwise like world of logs

[PjPablo]

Anyone who is against Recount or World of Logs etc. has clearly never been at the bleeding edge of PVE progression or in the highest ranks of PVP where the difference between success and failure lies in one mistake in your talent tree or using an ability at a sub-optimal time.

 

My guild was wiping all week on heroic nefarian, so we pored over the logs to see what was going wrong and it provided us with invaluable information

- Only 7 of 25 raiders using potions before combat started

- DPS interrupting at the wrong times

- DPS cancelling mind control too early

- Healers being too conservative and using cooldowns at the wrong times

- Offtank taking too much damage and reanimating adds from the fire on the ground

- Players neglecting to use potions during the fight

- Players with talent specs not suited to this particular fight

 

Without world of logs, how can we see who is dragging the chain? And don't tell me to 'open your eyes and see', there is too much going on in that fight to see what other players are doing

 

I honestly can't see how this game can be played at a decent level where content is genuinely challenging without some way to analyse data whether it be in game with Recount or otherwise like world of logs

 

Completely agree with you. However, I think we assume that BW will implement challenging endgame content that these tools would greatly help with. If they 'dumb down' content to make it so it doesn't really matter if party members are not executing at the level they could be then the need for addons goes away. Remains to be seen which direction BW will go.

 

I for one want very difficult content and addons, but that is just my opinion. I miss raids that took weeks and months to master.

[knightblaster]

Anyone who is against Recount or World of Logs etc. has clearly never been at the bleeding edge of PVE progression or in the highest ranks of PVP where the difference between success and failure lies in one mistake in your talent tree or using an ability at a sub-optimal time.

 

My guild was wiping all week on heroic nefarian, so we pored over the logs to see what was going wrong and it provided us with invaluable information

- Only 7 of 25 raiders using potions before combat started

- DPS interrupting at the wrong times

- DPS cancelling mind control too early

- Healers being too conservative and using cooldowns at the wrong times

- Offtank taking too much damage and reanimating adds from the fire on the ground

- Players neglecting to use potions during the fight

- Players with talent specs not suited to this particular fight

 

Without world of logs, how can we see who is dragging the chain? And don't tell me to 'open your eyes and see', there is too much going on in that fight to see what other players are doing

 

I honestly can't see how this game can be played at a decent level where content is genuinely challenging without some way to analyse data whether it be in game with Recount or otherwise like world of logs

 

It's a bit of chicken and egg, however.

 

Blizzard now designs its content around the reality that it expects its players to have all of these mods and tools -- so it isn't designed to be completed without them (on the bleeding edge). If the tools/mods were not available, this would not come into Blizzard's design decisions when fashioning the content. So, in the end, you have the tail wagging the dog when it comes to content design as a result of the proliferation of these "optional" mods.

[Hairless]

Anyone who is against Recount or World of Logs etc. has clearly never been at the bleeding edge of PVE progression or in the highest ranks of PVP where the difference between success and failure lies in one mistake in your talent tree or using an ability at a sub-optimal time.

 

My guild was wiping all week on heroic nefarian, so we pored over the logs to see what was going wrong and it provided us with invaluable information

- Only 7 of 25 raiders using potions before combat started

- DPS interrupting at the wrong times

- DPS cancelling mind control too early

- Healers being too conservative and using cooldowns at the wrong times

- Offtank taking too much damage and reanimating adds from the fire on the ground

- Players neglecting to use potions during the fight

- Players with talent specs not suited to this particular fight

 

Without world of logs, how can we see who is dragging the chain? And don't tell me to 'open your eyes and see', there is too much going on in that fight to see what other players are doing

 

I honestly can't see how this game can be played at a decent level where content is genuinely challenging without some way to analyse data whether it be in game with Recount or otherwise like world of logs

 

No. All those benefits are less important than my need to hide my lack of contribution to the group/raid.

[Hairless]

Completely agree with you. However, I think we assume that BW will implement challenging endgame content that these tools would greatly help with. If they 'dumb down' content to make it so it doesn't really matter if party members are not executing at the level they could be then the need for addons goes away. Remains to be seen which direction BW will go.

 

I for one want very difficult content and addons, but that is just my opinion. I miss raids that took weeks and months to master.

 

Why do you assume that merely having in-game meters will make the content easier and force developers to make harder content?

This isn't about the plethora of addons that are available for WoW.

We are just talking about DAMAGE METERS.

[Genkaro]

Recount? Any day, it shows how well everyone is performing, while still being able to vaguely take into account their gear by a quick inspect.

[Dazgra]

Why do you assume that merely having in-game meters will make the content easier and force developers to make harder content?

This isn't about the plethora of addons that are available for WoW.

We are just talking about DAMAGE METERS.

 

He's not saying that, he's saying that there is no need for recount if there is no need to excel at your role if your group can down content with some dead-weight players bringing up the rear, get it?

 

Also this is about RECOUNT which has many functions, clearly you have never looked past the 'damage done' window

Edited January 8, 2012 by Dazgra

[Hairless]

He's not saying that, he's saying that there is no need for recount if there is no need to excel at your role if your group can down content with some dead-weight players bringing up the rear, get it?

 

Also this is about RECOUNT which has many functions, clearly you have never looked past the 'damage done' window

 

Nope. That is not what he's saying.

He's saying that having meters will force developers to make harder content because somehow having meters "dumb down the content".

 

Your skill doesn't increase just because you have Recount on your screen.

Good players don't start doing less dps just because they don't have Recount.

 

People need to stop making up excuses that don't even make sense.

[Arkerus]

Allow addons but I don't support an in game version. I'd rather see development be dedicated to future content and game changes.

[Dazgra]

No, he is saying that Bioware can go down two paths

 

- Hardcore content which is very difficult and needs analysis tools such as recount to defeat it

 

- Casual content in which player performance isn't as critical and in which recount is only for bragging rights

[meminemall]

 

Recount is not just a "damage meter"... it is a graphical interface which allows you to view group activity in the combat log i.e. Damage Done over the duration of the fight by each player, Friendly Fire, Damage Taken, Healing Done, Absorbs, Healing Taken, Overhealing Done, Deaths, DOT Uptime, HOT Uptime, Player Combat Activity, Dispels, The Dispelled, Interrupts, Ressers, CC Breakers, Resources Gained, etc.

 

I believe these tools play an important role in identifying whether a player is doing well or under-performing. Nevertheless, these graphs should be the starting point – an indicator that you should be looking more closely at the situation. Used wisely, a tool like this could greatly improve guild performance.

 

Some individuals are fearful of an "elitist" backlash caused by the improper use of such a tool. Nevertheless, people have also argued that this tool would actually curb elitist behavior based on FACTS and DATA rather than Gear, Achievements, Spec, Gut Feeling or Favoritism.

 

The inevitability of undesirable behavior isn't something we can escape in a massive online community, so the real question is...

 

Would you rather be castigated based on factual data or would you rather take your chances with the "hunch" of a self seeking jerk?

 

With Recount

 

Jerk: Dude please leave the group your DPS sucks.

 

 

Without Recount

 

Jerk: Dude please leave the group you are wearing a green helm and your gear isn't good enough for this encounter. (You get kicked, even if you were top DPS)

-

EDIT: It would also totally eliminate "recount spam". They could disable all data broadcasts... If everyone has access to the information there would be no need to broadcast the results.

 

EDIT UPDATE:

-

During the speed-fire round starting at 13:00 in the video. Georg confirms an out of game COMBAT LOG!

 

People will have access to combat logs please bring a recount version in the game!

 

I think Georg Zoeller understands our pain for not having a combat log at launch, let's hope they "get it right" and quickly.

 

People who don't like Recount.

 

 

First off The game I agree needs some type of exportable combat log. there is no argument there.

 

The problem that "recount" will cause will be exactly who its precived in other mmos. A huge EEPEEN meter and who ever is highest on it has the bigest eepeen. When no one ever takes the time to look at Intterupts, Dispells, Overhealing, damage taken,Tools used that your class has to make the fight easier for everyone but worse for your self. IE deathgrip.

 

If a recount-esk addon was developed. It would have to be delecate and provide a whole range of information other than OMG DMG OVER 9000!.

 

I think Swtor would be better off releasing their equations of for their RNG in abilities as well as their coefficients and what not. People can then make charts and scaling guides to figure out the best way to play a class/ spec. Versus flat our releasing the API to the combat log and be like here you go guys. Some unguided data determine it as you will.

[PjPablo]

No, he is saying that Bioware can go down two paths

 

- Hardcore content which is very difficult and needs analysis tools such as recount to defeat it

 

- Casual content in which player performance isn't as critical and in which recount is only for bragging rights

 

This.

 

If the content is forgiving then addons aren't really needed. Example:

 

If DPS can pull aggro from the boss and survive a few hits then I can visually just recognize, as the tank, that aggro has been pulled and taunt back. Key here is visually.

 

If DPS pulls aggro and gets instagibbed then a threat meter would be nice to have. DPS can meter out dps appropriately so they don't overtake tank on table and the tank can see where folks are on threat table and take action proactively as needed.

 

Edit: I know this about recount but the same goes for beating enrage timers or checking up on healers that overheal, etc, etc, etc.

Edited January 8, 2012 by PjPablo