Tanks Tank, Healers Heal, Healers do not Tank

[Vedano]

I'm sorry, but there are two essential things wrong with your thread:

 

1.) Tanks do not tank in PVP, because their own survival is barely any better than of most melee DPS.

2.) Healers do not heal anymore in PVP since 1.2. They throw a few heals around and that's about it.

 

I don't have trouble understanding that Healers might have been a bit too powerful before, since they were in a position to withstand a lot of DPS.

 

However, I have trouble with people saying healers are fine now. They are clearly not. Today I have been in Voidstar with a healing Sage who had almost full WH augmented gear. A Sentinel was not letting off the guy, he was taking a huge beating, despite trying to knockback, LOS, etc. Problem is, it's difficult to actually lose those guys. In fact, I have been healing him as well to the best of my ability and tell you what, he still went down eventually, because someone threw me an interrupt.

 

So no, I totally disagree with you. Healers are support classes. They don't kill anyone and that's not their purpose. However, what good of a support class are you if you can'y support yourself through at least one DPS. You really can't. No matter your gear. Not as a Sage. And therefore it is extremely frustrating and dull to play this class in PVP at the moment, I'm sure many people can sympethise with that. You don't kill, you don't support. When a melee DPS even looks at you, you run like hell. That's just no fun, I'm sorry.

 

Absolutely no class in this game, no matter the class role should HAVE to and be FORCED to rely on any other class or class role in order to have a chance to survive or win a 1vs1 situation. This would be fair. It's not.

 

Don't argue about teamplay, because when healers were real supporters pre 1.2 and it took a group effort to take them out, as it should be, people were complaining. Because it is asked too much from a DPS to group up with another to take out a support class. And yet here we are, in times where a support class can't support itself and the DPS now have the nerves to tell healers to group up with others because it's a team game. Funny.

 

I totally disagree with the entirety of this statement purely because a warzone is a team game. This isnt a series of 1 v 1's, it is 8 vs 8, and last I checked anymore than 1 person to a side constituttes as a team.

 

Having said that, I play as a guardian hybrid tank and I always have guard on a sage healer that I run with. I put her on focus so I can see if shes getting attacked or she calls it out in TS. I peel the would be attackers for her, and if theyre resolve bar is full than I just guardian leap her and taunt the attackers to mitigate the dmg by another 50% (I say another because the guard mits 5% dmg static and splits the dmg between her and I 50/50, then guardian leap mits another 20% and taunts mit another 30%) so she has time to still heal cause they are hitting her for crap damage at this point.

 

I will then stay on them until they are either dead or start to attack me and then I will cycle my cd's as needed. That is how it is done. A healer needs support just like dps and tanks need healers. Its not a parasitic relationship where we just suck heals from the healers, its symbiotic. Healers keep the dps and tanks alive, tanks keep healers and dps alive by mitigating tons of dmg and allowing the healer to live longer thus more heals going out for longer lives for dps as well, and dps help keep tanks and healers alive by killing off the other teams healers and their top dps so we dont have to deal with them for long periods of time.

 

If this is done according to the above plan then things should go well, just unfortunately everyone just decides to go off and do their own thing for some reason, like everyone having their own plan is going to help or complete any objective lol. If its a team game then a team is needed to win it, not 8 individual players that just happen to be in the same area doing their own thing. People mark healers for a reason, attack them. If you want to do even better than form a group and rent a vent, ts, or mumble server. They arent that much. If you can afford this game then you can afford a vent, ts or mumble server.

 

And in closing, to win a team game, it takes all kinds of support. In pvp everyone is a support class of another. If you try to play a warzone as solo then you will have a terrible experience. I am not saying that it is easy to come across a good group of people that will be willing to play as a team and get in vent, ts, or mumble, but if you want to have a better experience then go for it and you will notice the difference with you depending on people that depend on you.

[AlyxDinas]

You seem to regularly confuse "tactics" with "using a certain ability" in my opinion.

 

I place more credence in the academic usage of the term than in your personal opinion of what it ought to be, unfortunately. In the case of the dictionary v. Henry Walsh, one certainly has more academic worth than the other. The properly chosen, weighted execution of a specific expedient of a goal is the bare minimum for what constitutes a tactic and thus, what is tactical. Hell, if we want to get into real tactical ideas, I can attest to the use of such things as perfidy or the encouragement of force concentration by an opponent, as a viable tactic in the Civil War, for instance.

 

You've been the one who has constantly brought up the notion of sufficient complexity, not I. All I've asserted is that the general shift towards a damage race between team has rendered certain modes of play utterly redundant in 1.2, such as enemy mana control. The counterclaim that these things have be co-opted by damage based means of execution only further serves to highlight the exact thing which I am expressing disdain for. For instance arguing that output control have shifted from controlling the enemy to shutting them down, in terms of out DPSing them, largely reinforces the notion that previously tangential and concurrently viable roles have actually become less viable.

 

You can't make anyone go anywhere you want them to in combat if they don't allow you to do so. Not without a pull ability. That isn't so much "make them go where you want" as much as it is press hot key so and so. This game is not anywhere near as tactical as you are making it seem to be.

 

Semantics, not substance. By this logic, the fact that I can properly encourage someone to open a game of rock, paper, scissors with scissors is little more than happenstance (or worse yet, intentional compliance), yet statistically, I can actually encourage, with a larger likelihood, a specific opening gambit using very basic tactics rather than some type of pity reflex.. If you mean to suggest that people are actively choosing to 'play along' rather than having the choice largely made for them, be it in TOR or in a handful of competitive venues, you have a large argument ahead of you since there's a larger positive to be proven in that case. All we've seen in terms of counter argument to this end is your personal insistence, however, so you must forgive me if I am not inclined to agree based on little more than imperious claims. Disagree with me all you want, but to me the honor and courtesy of doing so honestly.

 

Also, before you say, "There wasn't any other way to do it that is blanaced!" let me just say, "Yes. There is and yes if you want to see what it could be I'll be happy to PM it to you, though since it is a very long explanation it doesn't really belong in this thread..." Perhaps I'll make a thread to discuss theoretical ways other people would have done it to place it there.

 

First, you're making the continual mistake of assuming that I place more worth on your words than others (or that anyone actually does for that matter). I don't and never shall. I place considerably less. Secondly, avoid the sweeping use of "you" and the desire to want to presume upon my thoughts. You've a terrible trace record for properly ascertaining them. TTK has been appealed to on my part as a determinate factor for the equalizing of roles but it has been far from the only one thing I have alluded to.

Edited May 19, 2012 by AlyxDinas

[JediDuckling]

This is being posted because, it seems, that some people are having a real problem understanding what their class is supposed to do.

 

There are three classes in PVP in this game...

 

Healers

Tanks

DPS

 

Now, I'll get more into that but first let me explain a little about how damage in video games, specifically MMO's, works.

 

Combat has two variables:

 

Damage and Mitigation.

 

Damage is when a player assigns a numeric value to another player which is subtracted from their health.

Mitigation is when a player has an (active or passive) ability to reduce the assigned damage given to them by other players.

 

It is interesting to note that damage is cumulative between players, if two players assign a damage value to another player those two players have their numbers added together to get a total number.

 

Mitigation comes in two versions:

The first is an active version. This is when someone has a capability to actively remove assigned damage from a player. Commonly this is known as "healing" in the world of MMO's.

 

The second is a passive version. This is when someone has an ability (permanent or temporary) to reduce the value of damage assigned to them from any action on the part of any other player.

 

-----

The amount of time it takes for damage that player can deal out to exceed the total health (after passive mitigation) of another player is called the "Time to Kill" which we will refer to from here on out simply as the TTK.

-----

Now, this effectively assigns jobs to the two types of mitigation.

 

Passive mitigation increases the TTK.

Active mitigation can remove damage values so long as they can operate before the TTK has been reached.

 

Each class has different TTK's as TTK is modified by the amount of health someone has as well as the passive mitigation that person possesses.

-----

 

Classes that deal out high damage do not have high TTKs.

Classes that have active mitigation do not have high TTKs.

Classes that have high TTKs don't have active mitigation or high damage but do have the ability to grant higher TTK to other classes.

 

These three roles are known as the following:

 

DPS

Healer

Tank

 

-----

 

In Pre 1.2 Healers had a problem, their Healing was faster than (almost) any TTK value without modification.

In Post 1.2 DPS was increased across the board and thus TTK values went down.

 

This means in pre 1.2 Healers were too powerful as they were usually able to simulate having a high passive mitigation due to their active mitigation.

 

Tanks and DPS classes needed healers to provide active mitigation, but healers did not need Tanks to provide passive mitigation. They effectively had both high passive and high active mitigation. This does not mean your Healer is broken, it simply means that in order to gain passive mitigation again you now have to group with a Tank.

 

TL;DR

 

Healers need Tanks, Healers should have always needed Tanks, to protect them as they are not a Tank class.

 

when the class balance is fixed then each class should only be good at once thing. and thats dps heal or tank. as swtors pvp balance and class system is so poorly designed some class's have dps and tank like defense's and some even heals as well.

[Migrayn]

So healers are the only class the MUST have someone else help them in PvP. Without guard healers go down in 3-5s. Every other class can do their job without HAVING to have someone elses buff to help them.

 

This is fair?

 

Make it so DPS does 50% less damage then now unless they have a close range buff from a healer that brings them up to full damage. That is what it is like to be a healer needing a tank.

 

Doesnt matter the game is all but dead anyway.

[Caeliux]

I totally disagree with the entirety of this statement purely because a warzone is a team game. This isnt a series of 1 v 1's, it is 8 vs 8, and last I checked anymore than 1 person to a side constituttes as a team.

 

^

 

Truth and a /thread end

 

There is nothing else to say.

Edited May 19, 2012 by Caeliux

[ProfessorWalsh]

when the class balance is fixed then each class should only be good at once thing. and thats dps heal or tank. as swtors pvp balance and class system is so poorly designed some class's have dps and tank like defense's and some even heals as well.

 

You are making a mistake.

 

You are acting like Sentinels (in this case we all know who you are alluding to) have Tank abilities. They don't. They have personal defense yes, but that isn't the hallmark of a Tank in PVP. Also I know no DPS classes in 1.2 who have Healer level Healing.

 

Tanks in PVP are not defined by their personal defenses and personal survivability. Tanks in PVP are defined by their ability to grant passive damage mitigation to others. Sentinels, for example, despite every defensive cooldown healers complain about, are not Tanks, because in PVP Tanking isn't about taking aggro and surviving while being beaten down.

 

In PVP Tanking is giving others damage mitigation, which to my knowledge as a Sentinel, aside from Transcendence for 5 seconds for every 30 stacks of centering, has no way to do and they certainly don't do it anywhere near as well as a Guardian-Tank, Vanguard-Tank, or Shadow-Tank.

 

So...

 

What do DPS classes do in PVP? They DPS. That is all they do. They don't generate active damage mitigation as well as Healers, or even in the same ballpark or heck in the same country. They have no Tanking abilities as they have no way to protect others by way of granting passive mitigation.

 

What do Tank classes do in PVP? They Tank. That is all they do. They don't do DPS's level of damage assignment, not even remotely. They have no ability to grant active damage mitigation. They can, and are the only class that can (aside from some Sorcerers/Sages) grant passive damage mitigation.

 

What do Healer classes do in PVP? They Heal. That is all they do. They don't do DPS's level of damage assignment. They cannot grant significant passive damage mitigation. They can, and are the only class that can, grant active damage mitigation.

 

Stop trying to consider personal survivability as "Tanking" because that isn't "Tanking" because the Sentinel living longer due to "Guarded by the Force" doesn't help keep the Healer alive nor does it protect the Gunslinger who is entrenched and dealing out ungodly levels of damage.

[ProfessorWalsh]

So healers are the only class the MUST have someone else help them in PvP. Without guard healers go down in 3-5s. Every other class can do their job without HAVING to have someone elses buff to help them.

 

A healer's job isn't to absorb a lot of damage directed at them. Also every class, even a Sentinel, with the "ungodly™" survivability goes down in 5-7 seconds if they are focus fired by more than one DPS class. I got news for you, without a good Healer healing a DPS class, or a Tank guarding them, they can't do their job very well either.

 

This is fair?

 

Yes. Yes it is.

 

Make it so DPS does 50% less damage then now unless they have a close range buff from a healer that brings them up to full damage. That is what it is like to be a healer needing a tank.

 

No, no it isn't, not at all. You don't need a buff or be forced to heal at 50% of your capacity. You heal at your normal rate. DPS classes without support die pretty fast or they are forced to Vanish and flee thus being unable to deal damage and thus being unable to do their job.

 

The only reason you don't know this is because pre 1.2 you played a healer, and they were overpowered, and they didn't need help. DPS classes have always needed help and still need help.

 

Doesnt matter the game is all but dead anyway.

 

I blame the current game state on the fact that BioWare made a mistake and tried to make WoW in space when they should have gone very original in all aspects rather than try to clone the current generation of MMO. BioWare has always been great at innovation and in this game they didn't innovate.

[Force_Capitalism]

I absolutely agree with the fundamentals of what your are proposing, OP. Though I would like to run with it a little and perhaps propose a few changes.

 

In MMO PvP (assuming everyone meets a certain basic competence);

 

Heal classes are functionally Tanks (Who attract constant aggro and provide support to people filling objectives)

Tank Classes are functionally Objective-seekers (Who attract aggro only while doing their job)

DPS classes are functionally of utility purpose, or off-tanks (Who should peel and steal aggo, as well as kill things and fulfil objectives)

 

This means that in context, your healers provide an extra kind of mitigation --> redirection of damage from your DPS and tanks. If your healers are not walking, talking, spell casting venus fly traps, you're doing it wrong. Or they are. Someone is.

 

In a perfect situation, where your tank has an objective (say a flag, or in SWTOR, a ball) and a healer is mitigating, and DPS is killing those targeting the tank, all things align. Usually, though, if you face competent opponents, the tank will have to face some damage, and lots of cc, while the healer will be getting the same two fold until they're dead. The longer the healer lives, the better off the team is. Meaning keeping the healer alive, while it attracts enemy players, is by itself a sort of objective. Having a tank helps, but isn't necessary to fulfil that.

[aeterno]

I'm so sick of the healer pitty party post 1.2

 

Listening to you one would think healers now die in 2 hits and none of them pvp any longer cos 8 dps is pure win. Seems to me all of you are so buisly qq-ing that you havent actually qued for a wz since the patch.

 

A team without healers still get roflstomped by a team with 2 or 3, to the point you get like 5 kills in the 15-20min. Sorcs still kite like bosses and operatives are neigh impossible to burn down 1v1, and I'm playing a spec with arguably the best on demand burst in game.

 

Only thing that's changed for healers post 1.2 is that not everyone that just started playing mmos 2 weeks ago can facetank and keep half their ops alive in the process with moderate effort. If you think healers are poodoo post 1.2 I pitty you cos you eveidently haven't ever teamed up with a healer worth being called that.

Edited May 20, 2012 by aeterno

[fungihoujo]

Walsh still can't kill healers 1v1 on his sentinel- looking for another desperate nerf to the classes you hate huh?

 

I don't think anyone can take Walsh seriously when, for years before the game even came out- he clearly stated multiple times while arguing with fans of other classes that if the jedi knight wasn't the most powerful class in the game he wouldn't be happy and it wouldn't be Star Wars.

 

His crusade to make the game revolve around the Jedi Knight looks to finally be paying off- it's no wonder why those who can't heal just dps, they know full well they're going to be catered too because the lowest denominator always shoots for the bottom of the skill scale.

 

Tanks tank, healers heal, dps dps- and sentinels heal, dps, and tank.

 

 

The only reason anyone thought that healers could facetank before was because most sentinels don't have their interrupt, don't know how to use their CC- are still willing to say sents have no mez or stun, don't count roots as CC and are still under the impression that it's easy to get out of a dozen different sentinel movesets- like root leap, snare chasing, root ravage, immunity, stealth gap close, gap close leap again, saber ward, cloak of pain- by using 2 CC abilities.

 

On 1 minute CDs.

 

"You need to wait until they CoP to stun, then you need to stun them when they go immune, then stun them when they root ravage, and stun them so you can get away when they root you, and stun them when saber ward's up, then etc....." Is how every single 'how to beat a marauder' post is set up- either that or it tells you how to get out of 2 marauder abilities then goes 'lalalalala' when anyone brings up another- but that isn't a surprise, seeing how most sentinels don't know they have those abilities either, and try to use their own badness to say 'no, class is fine'.

 

 

But, can't blame sentinels for making these posts- when you are as extraordinarily OP as marauders are now, you know full well any sane developer would nerf you- so you need to do all you can to embellish until you can get them to believe your class actually sucks and all others are complaining because they're amazing but only terrible players play them.

[ShannaRZ]

That isn't a Tank that is a Hybrid. More importantly that is a Hybrid in DPS gear who is in their DPS stance. That means it is a DPS and not a Tank. So that argument is debunked.

 

You are very incorrect. Tankassins can rip Sentinels apart so can Guardians and Juggernauts. It simply requires the proper spec. Most of the time you never see Tanks fighting Sentinels or Marauder, you see Juggernauts and Guardians in DPS armor using their DPS stances. This is a lack of comprehension on your part rather than a mistake in the game.

 

I've seen Tanks beat two DPS Shadows or one Sent, and they can even beat healers if they can catch them trying to heal others instead of themselves. Tank vs DPS fights sometimes come down to who hits first. Tank vs Healer fights is a war of attrition, with the Healer coming out on top 90% of the time.

 

I had a hard time in pvp until I got full BM+ gear, and even then full WH geared DPS usually tear me apart, but when I look back at the logs, it's usually one Sent and one ranged DPS against me, not a 1v1 like I thought it was.

 

I finally beat a great Sentinel in full WH gear in a 1v1 fight where I got the opening hit. But considering that I knew him from many previous matches where he facerolled me, I don't exactly consider that to be even.

 

The "Rock, Paper, Scissors" analogy works in many cases, if things boil down to 1v1 fights. But because 1v1 is rarely the case, there are many other factors to consider, not the least of which is player knowledge and skill combined with proper communication.

 

Most fights are not 1v1, at least with skilled groups. They don't defend alone, and they don't attack alone.

[ShannaRZ]

You are making a mistake.

 

You are acting like Sentinels (in this case we all know who you are alluding to) have Tank abilities. They don't. They have personal defense yes, but that isn't the hallmark of a Tank in PVP. Also I know no DPS classes in 1.2 who have Healer level Healing.

 

Tanks in PVP are not defined by their personal defenses and personal survivability. Tanks in PVP are defined by their ability to grant passive damage mitigation to others.

 

...

 

Stop trying to consider personal survivability as "Tanking" because that isn't "Tanking" because the Sentinel living longer due to "Guarded by the Force" doesn't help keep the Healer alive nor does it protect the Gunslinger who is entrenched and dealing out ungodly levels of damage.

 

"Personal survivability is not tanking." I can agree with that in theory. However, ANY ability that keeps you alive and DPSing does help keep the healer and gunslinger alive, indirectly, because if the enemy has to focus on you to bring you down, they are not targeting the healer or gunslinger, thus allowing them to do their jobs for at least a little longer.

 

On that note, I LOL every time I see 3 DPS focusing on taking down a tank while ignoring the healer and other DPS that are tearing them apart. Regardless of abilities or effects (active or passive), that tank is keeping the healer and DPS alive simply by drawing fire. If a DPS does the same thing through defensive CD's, superior equipment, or pure skill, why is that not "tanking"?

 

Providing group damage reduction or mitigation might be the hallmark of a tank, but it is not the definition of one.