Can SWTOR be Saved ?

[islander]

In the defense of the coders, this is one of the few MMOs which had relatively few problems at launch.

I suspect it's not the coders that are the problems it's the decision makers that assign the priorities, otoh it might be a combination of the two.

 

Few problems at launch?

 

I'm not seeing how a successfully managed launch (and it was, indeed, very well done) has to do with the coded problems within the game itself - and the lack of quality of life items that were NOT included.

 

Everyone else: The probability that they are understaffed on an operation this expensive is not great. This wasn't Gods and Heroes online. I also don't see how the decision makers affect the coders ability to fix bugs, and provide what's really standard quality of life features.

 

Ultimately, I've never experienced an MMO with such a ridiculously slow response time to actual code issues within the game. If they can't "find" the problem in the code, then again, that's a coding issue.

Edited May 21, 2012 by islander

[JeramieCrowe]

Few problems at launch?

 

I'm not seeing how a successfully managed launch (and it was, indeed, very well done) has to do with the coded problems within the game itself - and the lack of quality of life items that were NOT included.

 

Basically, it's because BioWare did research of almost every other MMO: what was included at launch, what wasn't, what came when, etc.

 

That's the pattern they chose to follow. No LFG, customizable UI, etc. at launch, included ~6 months in. Not even TERA launched with a LFG.

 

Everyone else: The probability that they are understaffed on an operation this expensive is not great. This wasn't Gods and Heroes online. I also don't see how the decision makers affect the coders ability to fix bugs, and provide what's really standard quality of life features.

 

I don't believe they're understaffed, either. They just chose to go with the typical and average timeframes of feature implementation.

Edited May 21, 2012 by JeramieCrowe

[TheAincient]

Few problems at launch?

 

I'm not seeing how a successfully managed launch (and it was, indeed, very well done) has to do with the coded problems within the game itself - and the lack of quality of life items that were NOT included.

 

Everyone else: The probability that they are understaffed on an operation this expensive is not great. This wasn't Gods and Heroes online. I also don't see how the decision makers affect the coders ability to fix bugs, and provide what's really standard quality of life features.

 

Features missing etc... is not the same as bad coding

[islander]

Features missing etc... is not the same as bad coding

 

Inability to add them in a timely manner - is. Also, inability to fix bugs in a timely manner. With warzones not giving wins properly, with Ilum dailies breaking for weeks, etc etc.

Edited May 21, 2012 by islander

[JeramieCrowe]

Inability to add them in a timely manner - is.

 

Did you know that a LFG wasn't included in TERA until 8 months later? I believe Rift was the fastest at about 5 months in, and a customizable UI wasn't until about 6 months in.

Edited May 21, 2012 by JeramieCrowe

[JeramieCrowe]

Inability to add them in a timely manner - is. Also, inability to fix bugs in a timely manner. With warzones not giving wins properly, with Ilum dailies breaking for weeks, etc etc.

 

As far as bug fixes and this engine... Wow, I actually gotta hand it to the coders to polish crap and make it look as golden as they have so far. After all, it wasn't their decision to use it. And lots of times fixing bugs almost same-day? That's rare for ANY coder, much less ones forced to work with this engine.

[islander]

Did you know that a LFG wasn't included in TERA until 8 months later? I believe Rift was the fastest at about 5 months in, and a customizable UI wasn't until about 6 months in.

.

I played RIFT almost from the start. The UI was great from the beginning, pretty customizable. I have no idea what it's like "now", as I quit within 2 months out of boredom.

 

As far as TERA: Didn't it just go live? It's not even on my carebar one way or the other.

 

As far as bug fixes and this engine... Wow, I actually gotta hand it to the coders to polish crap and make it look as golden as they have so far. After all, it wasn't their decision to use it. And lots of times fixing bugs almost same-day? That's rare for ANY coder, much less ones forced to work with this engine.

 

I can agree that it could be the decision to use the engine they did (it wasn't any coder who chose this).

Edited May 21, 2012 by islander

[gurugeorge]

Baptes: I honestly believe the devs are the problem. Well, the coders portion of them.

Honestly, at this point I've come to realize the reality - it's third rate coders managing what was supposed to be a first rate MMO.

 

There's a reason Xalek's shield defense bonuses took until 1.2.4 to be fixed.

There's a reason these geniuses couldn't rebuild a UI worth .02 until 1.2. T

There's a reason they can't make chat bubbles work.

There's a reason Ilum dailies were broken - for months.

There's a reason it took them the better part of 8 months to allow match to chest again.

There's a reason they can't figure out how to automatically transfer characters, and they can't just auto-create level 50's on the PTS.

 

These coders stink. Bottom line.

 

Now that I've been involved with this game for about 9-10 months now, it's all clear now. This game is dying because the coders/engine combination is a failure. The lack of proper testing is a second important cause, but ultimately this coder group is completely incapable of doing anything in a timely manner.

 

Yeah this is such a ridiculous statement.

 

Far more likely, as someone said above, is that as soon as the numbers started taking a dip, devs were withdrawn from the project. I take this view because in the first month, a lot of stuff was done quite quickly, particularly the speed with which ability delay was sorted, was very impressive. But since then, 1.2 was lacklustre, and nothing much has happened since, given the urgency many players are feeling about the situation.

 

Also revealing in this regard was the EA guy's comments recently to the effect that SWTOR isn't considered by EA as its most profitable product. Certainly it's profitable, but clearly it hasn't been the smash hit they probably hoped for. Hence, it's not dropped, but it's put on life support (well, probably somewhat better than life support at this stage, but probably much less than would be required for many of the changes players want yesterday).

 

So yes, rather than bad coders, my money's on "skeleton crew" and overworked coders.

[TheAincient]

Inability to add them in a timely manner - is. Also, inability to fix bugs in a timely manner. With warzones not giving wins properly, with Ilum dailies breaking for weeks, etc etc.

 

Again we don't know it has anything to do with the coders, more likely it was the project managers who decided what gets done when.

 

But I have to say that, recently has the feel that the maintenance coding is taking a back seat, this is something that has been seen before and is usually driven by marketing, marketing can sell new features and content they cant sell bug fixes.

[JeramieCrowe]

As far as TERA: Didn't it just go live? It's not even on my carebar one way or the other.

 

Nah, it launched in Korea over a year ago. LFG 8 months in. Recently launched in US. That's the only reason people thought it was launching with an LFG tool, but that's actually not the case.

[islander]

Yeah this is such a ridiculous statement.

 

Far more likely, as someone said above, is that as soon as the numbers started taking a dip, devs were withdrawn from the project. I take this view because in the first month, a lot of stuff was done quite quickly, particularly the speed with which ability delay was sorted, was very impressive. But since then, 1.2 was lacklustre, and nothing much has happened since, given the urgency many players are feeling about the situation.

 

Also revealing in this regard was the EA guy's comments recently to the effect that SWTOR isn't considered by EA as its most profitable product. Certainly it's profitable, but clearly it hasn't been the smash hit they probably hoped for. Hence, it's not dropped, but it's put on life support (well, probably somewhat better than life support at this stage, but probably much less than would be required for many of the changes players want yesterday).

 

So yes, rather than bad coders, my money's on "skeleton crew" and overworked coders.

 

I'd agree with you if the numbers were lower then they actually are.

Again, I could rattle off (and already have) countless issues they failed to fix in a timely manner - before 1.2

I figured 6 or 7 examples was enough.

 

Now, I completely agree that the zero engine could be a large factor in this 'failure' to code and repair things effectively. This - of course - has nothing to do with the coders but the decision makers who chose baddie middleware.

 

However, the inability to fix long standing issues like Xalek's shield just strikes me as bad, bad, bad. Their inability to automate character transfers - or even generate premades (because they failed hard at it, in beta) even now to me, smacks of bad code. Whether its coders, Zero engine, or some combination of the two...this in particular isn't on EA/decision makers.

[JeramieCrowe]

I'd agree with you if the numbers were lower then they actually are.

Again, I could rattle off (and already have) countless issues they failed to fix in a timely manner - before 1.2

I figured 6 or 7 examples was enough.

 

To be fair, however, one must take that list and compare it to the list of things they DID fix before 1.2. You have to have the complete picture, not just focus on what they didn't do.

 

Now, I completely agree that the zero engine could be a large factor in this 'failure' to code and repair things effectively. This - of course - has nothing to do with the coders but the decision makers who chose baddie middleware.

 

I think that's why they've modified it so extensively. I can see why it was chosen: It has far superior facial movement capabilities for cinematics than any other engine available. That's why TESO went with it, too. But, they still have a lot of "polishing" to go.

 

However, the inability to fix long standing issues like Xalek's shield just strikes me as bad, bad, bad. Their inability to automate character transfers - or even generate premades (because they failed hard at it, in beta) even now to me, smacks of bad code. Whether its coders, Zero engine, or some combination of the two...this in particular isn't on EA/decision makers.

 

It's not an "inability" so much as it is a "priority". Again, one only needs to compare what they haven't fixed to the HUGE list of what they have fixed to see where the priorities are.

Edited May 21, 2012 by JeramieCrowe

[Raeln]

Not only that but another thing he's failing to consider is that most of his bullet list is no different than any other MMO. I can't think of another MMO that launched with customizable UI. Not even Rift did.

 

Considering that the big boy on the block, World of Warcraft, launched without a raid interface at all - I think TOR is doing pretty well.

 

I guess it's just too easy for these "pro-MMO'ers" to forget that WoW launched with practically nothing but a very marginal single player UI. There was no...

 

1.) target of target

2.) group target

3.) raid frames at all

4.) click casting

5.) macro system with almost no rules - allowed automation to the point where macro scripts could pilot your character back from the graveyard and autofarm mobs (really supported gold farming). Also allowed automatic potion chugging when bound to directional keys.

6.) no focus target system

7.) had to use several 3rd party addons just to have a functional raid UI for healers

8.) no nameplates for npcs

9.) no chat bubbles

10.) No customization UI at all without resorting to 3rd party mods (which broke after EVERY SINGLE patch)

 

I dreaded every patch day in WoW because I knew I would have to spend more time fixing my UI than I would even get to play that night. This included logging in and out, finding broken addons, downloaded (or waiting) for new updates for addons and playing the game for up to days with part of my UI broken until the addon author fixed the addon.

 

I absolutely love the TOR UI. I don't have to waste hours of my time rebuilding and redownloading 20 addons every time a mini-patch rolls out. I don't feel like I'm playing at sub-par efficiency because <insert addon here> is broken until the author fixes it (if they still play the game). The only thing I want now is the ability to macro my relic and adrenal together in one button and the ability to mouseover target. Until mouseover targeting is implemented, I will not play a healer.

 

Also, he's failing to consider that with millions of lines of code, it's impossible for human beings not to write new code that just might break something. So, if it does, it's actually QA's fault, not the coders'. That's what we ran into here with the server transfer software that was ready since beta: a Legacy element, most likely one of the "last-minute additions" they spoke about in the podcast, broke the transfer/shut-down software they were going to implement a month ago.

 

Absolutely. Most people have no concept of how changing one line of code can cause a ripple effect through the entire application.

Edited May 21, 2012 by Raeln

[Bluerodian]

Considering that the big boy on the block, World of Warcraft, launched without a raid interface at all - I think TOR is doing pretty well.

 

I guess it's just too easy for these "pro-MMO'ers" to forget that WoW launched with practically nothing but a very marginal single player UI. There was no...

 

1.) target of target

2.) group target

3.) raid frames at all

4.) click casting

5.) macro system with almost no rules - allowed automation to the point where macro scripts could pilot your character back from the graveyard and autofarm mobs (really supported gold farming). Also allowed automatic potion chugging when bound to directional keys.

6.) no focus target system

7.) had to use several 3rd party addons just to have a function raid UI for healers

8.) no nameplates for npcs

9.) no chat bubbles

10.) No customization UI at all without resorting to 3rd party mods (which broke after EVERY SINGLE patch)

 

I dreaded every patch day in WoW because I knew I would have to spend more time fixing my UI than I would even get to play that night. This included logging in and out, finding broken addons, downloaded (or waiting) for new updates for addons and playing the game for up to days with part of my UI broken until the addon author fixed the addon.

 

I absolutely love the TOR UI. I don't have to waste hours of my time rebuilding and redownloading 20 addons every time a mini-patch rolls out. I don't feel like I'm playing at sub-par efficiency because <insert addon here> is broken until the author fixes it (if they still play the game). The only thing I want now is the ability to macro my relic and adrenal together in one button and the ability to mouseover target. Until mouseover targeting is implemented, I will not play a healer.

 

 

 

Absolutely. Most people have no concept of how changing one line of code can cause a ripple effect through the entire application.

 

WoW also launched a long time ago. The bar is set with the current revision of WoW, not the original launch version. If they can't compete with WoW as it is now (In features at least) then they're wasting their time.

[LosMartonos]

No. End of discussion.

[Raeln]

Few problems at launch?

 

I'm not seeing how a successfully managed launch (and it was, indeed, very well done) has to do with the coded problems within the game itself - and the lack of quality of life items that were NOT included.

 

Everyone else: The probability that they are understaffed on an operation this expensive is not great. This wasn't Gods and Heroes online. I also don't see how the decision makers affect the coders ability to fix bugs, and provide what's really standard quality of life features.

 

The decision makers (read: management), determines how important an individual bug is to the game or playerbase. If a bug that really irritates you personally is rated at the bottom of the bug list - then no coder, not even the mighty Sheldon, will be allowed to fix that bug until the other bugs on the list are fixed first.

 

This goes for all things a coder does. They may want to build the underlayment for player housing with all their heart but until the decision makers (read: management) tells them they can - those coders cannot. They may not even be allowed to on their personal time either, depending on company policy.

 

Ultimately, I've never experienced an MMO with such a ridiculously slow response time to actual code issues within the game. If they can't "find" the problem in the code, then again, that's a coding issue.

 

Blizzard moves far more slowly. Vanish bug, anyone?

[JeramieCrowe]

WoW also launched a long time ago. The bar is set with the current revision of WoW, not the original launch version. If they can't compete with WoW as it is now (In features at least) then they're wasting their time.

 

No one will EVER compete with a feature-list of an eight-year-old MMO. Get real. People have been touting "TERA launched with a LFG!!1!1" Well, guess what, it didn't either. So far, TOR has been right in the average of every other MMO ever launched with the timeframes of feature implementation. That's just FACT.

[Holden_Dissent]

Anyone who starts off the thread with a subject like "Can XXX be saved?", "How to Revive XXX", "Here's how to bring everyone back", etc etc just shows that you have a passive aggressive agenda. You are implying that the game is dead/dying which is subjective opinion. In turn you, whether you indeed intended to be helpful, just admitted to the game dying or being dead. Which it is not.

[Raeln]

WoW also launched a long time ago. The bar is set with the current revision of WoW, not the original launch version. If they can't compete with WoW as it is now (In features at least) then they're wasting their time.

 

No, the bar is not set with the current version. If every MMO much launch with everything that a 7 year old game has, then the MMO playerbase better get prepared to pay a lot more than 60 to 80 dollars for the initial game.

 

Aside from that, things like LFD are not even usable until a significant portion of the playerbase are at max level. I was playing Rift when they launched their LFD 3 months after release. People complained about queue times into hours on getting a group formed - it was because only a very small amount of the playerbase was actually max level and ready to do dungeon content.

[JeramieCrowe]

No, the bar is not set with the current version. If every MMO much launch with everything that a 7 year old game has, then the MMO playerbase better get prepared to pay a lot more than 60 to 80 dollars for the initial game.

 

Aside from that, things like LFD are not even usable until a significant portion of the playerbase are at max level. I was playing Rift when they launched their LFD 3 months after release. People complained about queue times into hours on getting a group formed - it was because only a very small amount of the playerbase was actually max level and ready to do dungeon content.

 

Careful. Apparently, stating reality around here gets you labeled a "fanboi" or "EA employee"...

[Evironrage]

No, the bar is not set with the current version. If every MMO much launch with everything that a 7 year old game has, then the MMO playerbase better get prepared to pay a lot more than 60 to 80 dollars for the initial game.

 

Aside from that, things like LFD are not even usable until a significant portion of the playerbase are at max level. I was playing Rift when they launched their LFD 3 months after release. People complained about queue times into hours on getting a group formed - it was because only a very small amount of the playerbase was actually max level and ready to do dungeon content.

 

Sorry but I don't remember there being a significant number of folks complaining about que times once RIFT implemented their LFD tool. If anything folks were just happy to have such an option. However, for those still lvling it was a god send to be able to do all of the dungeons that were lvl appropriate. Of course communities vary from server to server I just never encountered what you are describing while playing RIFT.

SWTOR's attempt at community building failed miserably and as such FP content was basically lost till lvl cap. They should have just bit the bullet and made a server wide LFG tool from the get go.

[Evironrage]

Considering that the big boy on the block, World of Warcraft, launched without a raid interface at all - I think TOR is doing pretty well.

...

I dreaded every patch day in WoW because I knew I would have to spend more time fixing my UI than I would even get to play that night. This included logging in and out, finding broken addons, downloaded (or waiting) for new updates for addons and playing the game for up to days with part of my UI broken until the addon author fixed the addon.

...

Absolutely. Most people have no concept of how changing one line of code can cause a ripple effect through the entire application.

We actually changed our raid days in WoW just to accommodate those using 3rd party addons because the officer core knew how horrible runs would be if folks did not have their customizations set. To be fair many of the officers used them (guilty as charged).

[Holden_Dissent]

addons were a crutch. Only ones I ever used were for UI and decursive back in MC vanilla. People who couldn't raid without DBM made me furious and ultimately is the reason why I quit. Edited May 21, 2012 by Holden_Dissent

[Evironrage]

addons were a crutch. Only ones I ever used were for UI and decursive back in MC vanilla. People who couldn't raid without DBM made me furious and ultimately is the reason why I quit.

 

Decursive was crutch #2 or #3 with DBM topping that list. Not trying to provoke anything, just saying.

Edited May 21, 2012 by Evironrage

[Raeln]

Sorry but I don't remember there being a significant number of folks complaining about que times once RIFT implemented their LFD tool. If anything folks were just happy to have such an option. However, for those still lvling it was a god send to be able to do all of the dungeons that were lvl appropriate. Of course communities vary from server to server I just never encountered what you are describing while playing RIFT.

SWTOR's attempt at community building failed miserably and as such FP content was basically lost till lvl cap. They should have just bit the bullet and made a server wide LFG tool from the get go.

 

There was a lot of forum noise over queue times. It didn't seem to be isolated by server, though I'm sure some servers were more effected than others.