1.2 PvP Patch is a Disaster - How to fix it

[Dmasterr]

The key issue for BioWares SWTOR business model at this time is retention of new players. SWTOR continues to attract a lot of new players. When fresh 50s buy a full set of recruit gear and queue up for warzones and repeatedly die in 2-3 GCDs, most of them stop queueing. Many new players just quit the game after such a "miserable" gaming experience.

 

The issues I listed in my OP affect fresh 50s the most. If BioWare wants pvp server populations to recover, they must provide a smoother transition to end game pvp for new players.

 

Are you familiar with what a MMORPG is? If you only have 1 hour /day you can play a game, then MMORPGs are not for you.

[Samaul]

Are you familiar with what a MMORPG is? If you only have 1 hour /day you can play a game, then MMORPGs are not for you.

 

Fortunately, that is NOT YOUR DECISION.

[Dmasterr]

Fortunately, that is NOT YOUR DECISION.

 

You are just like going in an appliance store, buying a TV, then whining to the manufacturer it doesn't microwave your dinner.

 

Why don't you just buy a microwave? (ie: play a game genre that is more suitable to your "1h/day" game time)

 

*It currently takes playing over 1 weekend, to get full BM gear, from scratch.*

Edited May 14, 2012 by Dmasterr

[Asturias]

all but 5 or 6 of the pvp servers in swtor are light population. Most pvp servers in swtor are dead or dying. I mean 5-10 people in carrick station, empty leveling zones and therefore empty servers. My own server has lost over 60% of its population since patch 1.2. The pvp player base has overwhelmingly rejected patch 1.2. Players that are new to the game stop queing for warzones when they hit level 50 because the gear gap is just too large.

 

what went wrong with the 1.2 pvp patch:

 

• damage was overbuffed - expertise damage buff and damage buffs to some dps classes/specs was just too much. Players in full recruit gear are dying in under 5 seconds.
  
• healing was overnerfed - expertise healing nerf and nerfs to healing classes/specs was just too much. Healers can no longer keep themselves alive in pvp, much less anyone else.
  
• the new pvp gear system has huge holes in it - the gap between recruit and battlemaster is too large. The gap between battlemaster and war hero is too small.
  

 

how to fix swtor pvp:

 

• do a complete rollback to the pre-1.2 pvp system.
  
• roll back the expertise change.
  
• bring back the centurion/champion/battlemaster pvp gear progression.
  
• put whoever is responsible for the swtor 1.2 pvp changes on help desk where they can never ever come up with a set of pvp changes like 1.2 again.
  

 

how to get it right next time:

 

listen to the pvp community.

 

edit:

 

The key issue for biowares swtor business model at this time is retention of new players. Swtor continues to attract a lot of new players. When fresh 50s buy a full set of recruit gear and queue up for warzones and repeatedly die in 2-3 gcds, most of them stop queueing. Many new players just quit the game after such a "miserable" gaming experience.

 

The issues i listed above affect fresh 50s the most. If bioware wants pvp server populations to recover, they must provide a smoother transition to end game pvp for new players.

 

l2p

Edited May 14, 2012 by Asturias

[wessik]

I am part of the "pvp community" they are supposed to "listen to "as well, I almost completely disagree with what you wrote.

 

What we need is more expertise on pvp gear, especially on recruit gear (infact bm and recruit gear should have the same expertise budget, recruit has lesser stat they do not need to be punished twice).

 

Healers are fine.

 

The gap between optimized wh and optimized bm gear is huge, bm gear as it comes of the shelf is bad and lacks certain mods. Gear gaps need to be reduced between pvp sets.

 

Pre 1.2 pvp was dominated by pve gear that was not acceptable, pre 1.2 was way less balanced than 1.2.

 

Listen to this...

 

i absolutely agree with every point...

 

healers are fine!

 

on our server, imp healers are basically non existent and the reps usually roll with 2 healers in their groups... they do just fine and help their dps groups immensely...

 

i wish all our imp healers hadn't quit because we are at a real disadvantage without them...

[Tathais]

You are just like going in an appliance store, buying a TV, then whining to the manufacturer it doesn't microwave your dinner.

 

Why don't you just buy a microwave? (ie: play a game genre that is more suitable to your "1h/day" game time)

 

*It currently takes playing over 1 weekend, to get full BM gear, from scratch.*

 

MMOs don't automatically mean a hardcore game experience. There is no rule in some rulebook somewhere that says this, certainly not one for SWTOR.

 

Also, if it took you a weekend to get your full BM set, you played quite a bit every single day. We can even do some math to find out roughly how much you played. I've noticed I get about 80 commendations for a loss and maybe 120 for a win. I'm guessing here but that feels right... feel free to correct me. Anyway, lets assume a 50% win ratio so we can average 100 commendations per game.

 

Now, lets see how many commendations you need for your full set. I did a quick google and found this helpful site: http://feature.mmosite.com/swtor/1.2_pvp_gearing_review.shtml. Here they say it takes 12050 commendations for your full set. Again, feel free to correct me, we can put in any numbers you like.

 

So, an average of 100 commendations per game and you need 12050 commendations. Well that's easy enough: 12050 commendations / 100 commendations per game = 120.5 games, which we of course need to round to 121. You need to play, on average, 121 games to get your complete set. Now lets work out how much time that takes.

 

I find your average game takes about 15 - 20 minutes. Then, depending on your server you have 2-10 minute queue time. Lets go ahead and assume a 25 minute turn around: ((15 + 20) / 2) + *(2 + 10) / 2) = 23.5 -- round to 25 for funsies. You can work it out with 23.5 if you want.

(NOTE: In reality this number is actually much, much larger. On my server I wait 10 minutes for a queue at peak hours. Queues simply don't pop outside that because, like so many other servers, mine is all but completely dead. I'm actually unable to even complete my daily simply because I can't get in 3-6 games in the amount of time I have available to me.)

 

121 games at 25 minutes per game. 121 * 25 = 3025 minutes, which is 50.42 hours.

 

So we've worked out that you need to play for 50.42 hours to get your full battlemaster set. Cool, now you say you did this over a weekend? All right, well there's two days on a weekend so 50.42 hours / 2 days = 25.21. Waaaaaitaminute here, there's only 24 hours in a day. You must have meant Friday too. No problem, we'll assume you got home around 5pm on Friday so that gives you 7 hours on that day for a total of 55 hours (7 + 24 + 24). I suppose that's possible... though I gotta ask, are you all right? You may want to go see a doctor, I worry for your health. For the rest of us, that's actually rather impossible. I know I need to sleep and generally consume food. I also tend to need to use the bathroom... I know, personal failing.

 

Lets look at this from a more realistic perspective. I feel like you or someone else said they did it in a week. Lets try from that perspective. In your normal week, your normal person spends 7-8 hours sleeping, 8 hours working and maybe 1-2 commuting. This is just a ball park but I'm sure if you add up the hours in your day (or those of your parents if you don't work full time) you'll see that this is actually pretty close. Lets add it up... on a work day you have 24 hours - 8 sleeping hours - 8 working hours - 1 commuting hours = 7 free hours. This excludes eating/bathroom but lets roll with it. Lets say you don't go out on the weekends and stay at home and play SWTOR, we can figure you have about 16 hours per day. This gives you 5 * 7 hours + 2 * 16 hours = 67 hours.

 

So yes, if you spent every free hour you had on SWTOR over a week you could get full BM. This is true. Of course, most of us can't really spend every free moment on SWTOR... we generally have other responsibilities. We have to make/eat dinner, see the family, see friends... I know, so tedious! Now we start to get into the realm of speculation but I hope after this rather lengthy post (who are we kidding? You didn't get this far...) you start to see a true picture of the amount of time it takes to get your full BM set and how it's not a trivial endeavour.

 

Now consider that the OP says he loses much, much more than he wins and he spends most of that time in the spawn area. I can verify that last part because it's true... I'm a healer as well and can attest that people tend to mob healers, which means they die very fast.. So you're talking about spending every free moment for a week doing something completely, mind numbingly, dull!

 

If this is the gameplay SWTOR is shooting for, you and the few others like you will quickly find yourselves alone in a vast, empty universe.

Edited May 14, 2012 by Tathais

[MinguesDew]

Expertise is in a good place? It buffs damage twice as much as healing. That is in addition to the nerfs to healers. I am personally boycotting healing in pvp until this issue is adressed. All the other healers in my guild (a very large guild) are doing the same.

On paper, yes, in effect, no.

 

Using my gear as an example:

 

Damage: +22.10%

Mitigation: -18.10%

Healing: +12.20%

 

100 damage ability + 22.10% = 122.10

122.10 * .8190 = 99.99

100 heal + 12.20% = 112.20

 

In equal gear expertise zeros out for damage but still buffs heals.

 

You're bad and you should feel bad and you should L2P before you post stupid demands on the forums backed by your uninformed opinions. So sick of clueless malcontents and their moronic manifestos.

[Dmasterr]

..

 

I win about 8 out of 10 games, and get 150~ comms per win, and 90 per loss.

 

Most of my wins take about 10 minutes at most, and some under 5 minutes where we faceroll the other team.

 

All your "math" does is show how long it will take if you lose most of your games and play the full length of the match every time with an average medal count.

 

Win more, win faster, and... gear faster.

 

I could make a calculation and say you get 1 medal per game where u get what 40 comms / win and it will take you 2 weeks to gear, only show how long it will take for bad players and afk wz play to gear up.

Edited May 14, 2012 by Dmasterr

[Tathais]

I win about 8 out of 10 games, and get 150~ comms per win, and 90 per loss.

 

Most of my wins take about 10 minutes at most, and some under 5 minutes where we faceroll the other team.

 

All your "math" does is show how long it will take if you lose most of your games and play the full length of the match every time with an average medal count.

 

Win more, win faster, and... gear faster.

 

I could make a calculation and say you get 1 medal per game where u get what 40 comms / win and it will take you 2 weeks to gear, only show how long it will take for bad players and afk wz play to gear up.

 

50% win ratio is a good average case... that's the target for general competitive games where one side faces the other. You say you win 80% of your games... that's great, other people win 20% of theirs. You find a middle ground and go from there. Again, for your time played, most games go the length of the match, you have to average it out. If you want to use 20 minutes per game cycle go ahead and adjust the numbers accordingly. Do the same with the commendations per win, on the average case. If you say you get 90 per loss instead of 80 and 150 per win instead of 120, do the math with an average of 120 commendations per game. You're still going to end up with a very unrealistic amount of time to play in order to get your full BM set over a weekend, and an extremely demanding schedule to get it in a week.

 

I'm also aware you can do the calculations for someone who loses and gets no commendations, I chose the average case as this would best indicate the experiences of most people. If you made it that far, you'll note that I did touch upon the likely scenario of the OP which is far worse than what I described.

 

Finally, I like how you quote "math" like it's some mystical concept... lol. So far my crazy number mumbo jumbo has given us far more realistic an image than your anecdotal nonsense. Perhaps you just lost track of time during your crazy SWTOR binge weekend and don't actually realize what you did...?

[Renskin]

Healers are fine?

 

> That must be why they stopped queueing, including me.

 

Pre 1.2 pvp was dominated by pve gear

 

> My healing is vastly superior in pve gear now compared to recruit gear compared to what it was pre-1.2. 1.2 has made pve gear more not less useful in pvp, at least for healers. Recruit healing gear is absolutely useless. In full columi/rakata I can crank out a lot of healing in a short amount of time. In full pve gear I have 18000 hp. In full recruit gear I have 13000 hp.

 

why dont you grind out to get the Battlemaster gear then? Like the rest of us. I mean...PvP is something you have to work for. Quit complaining because you failed to participate in the PvP world from a competitive standpoint.

[Renskin]

On paper, yes, in effect, no.

 

Using my gear as an example:

 

Damage: +22.10%

Mitigation: -18.10%

Healing: +12.20%

 

100 damage ability + 22.10% = 122.10

122.10 * .8190 = 99.99

100 heal + 12.20% = 112.20

 

In equal gear expertise zeros out for damage but still buffs heals.

 

You're bad and you should feel bad and you should L2P before you post stupid demands on the forums backed by your uninformed opinions. So sick of clueless malcontents and their moronic manifestos.

^^^^^^

[Renskin]

I dont believe you.

 

As did I, I had Full BM gear the 2nd day of 1.2 launch.

[wessik]

MMOs don't automatically mean a hardcore game experience. There is no rule in some rulebook somewhere that says this, certainly not one for SWTOR.

 

Also, if it took you a weekend to get your full BM set, you played quite a bit every single day. We can even do some math to find out roughly how much you played. I've noticed I get about 80 commendations for a loss and maybe 120 for a win. I'm guessing here but that feels right... feel free to correct me. Anyway, lets assume a 50% win ratio so we can average 100 commendations per game.

 

Now, lets see how many commendations you need for your full set. I did a quick google and found this helpful site: http://feature.mmosite.com/swtor/1.2_pvp_gearing_review.shtml. Here they say it takes 12050 commendations for your full set. Again, feel free to correct me, we can put in any numbers you like.

 

So, an average of 100 commendations per game and you need 12050 commendations. Well that's easy enough: 12050 commendations / 100 commendations per game = 120.5 games, which we of course need to round to 121. You need to play, on average, 121 games to get your complete set. Now lets work out how much time that takes.

 

I find your average game takes about 15 - 20 minutes. Then, depending on your server you have 2-10 minute queue time. Lets go ahead and assume a 25 minute turn around: ((15 + 20) / 2) + *(2 + 10) / 2) = 23.5 -- round to 25 for funsies. You can work it out with 23.5 if you want.

(NOTE: In reality this number is actually much, much larger. On my server I wait 10 minutes for a queue at peak hours. Queues simply don't pop outside that because, like so many other servers, mine is all but completely dead. I'm actually unable to even complete my daily simply because I can't get in 3-6 games in the amount of time I have available to me.)

 

121 games at 25 minutes per game. 121 * 25 = 3025 minutes, which is 50.42 hours.

 

So we've worked out that you need to play for 50.42 hours to get your full battlemaster set. Cool, now you say you did this over a weekend? All right, well there's two days on a weekend so 50.42 hours / 2 days = 25.21. Waaaaaitaminute here, there's only 24 hours in a day. You must have meant Friday too. No problem, we'll assume you got home around 5pm on Friday so that gives you 7 hours on that day for a total of 55 hours (7 + 24 + 24). I suppose that's possible... though I gotta ask, are you all right? You may want to go see a doctor, I worry for your health. For the rest of us, that's actually rather impossible. I know I need to sleep and generally consume food. I also tend to need to use the bathroom... I know, personal failing.

 

Lets look at this from a more realistic perspective. I feel like you or someone else said they did it in a week. Lets try from that perspective. In your normal week, your normal person spends 7-8 hours sleeping, 8 hours working and maybe 1-2 commuting. This is just a ball park but I'm sure if you add up the hours in your day (or those of your parents if you don't work full time) you'll see that this is actually pretty close. Lets add it up... on a work day you have 24 hours - 8 sleeping hours - 8 working hours - 1 commuting hours = 7 free hours. This excludes eating/bathroom but lets roll with it. Lets say you don't go out on the weekends and stay at home and play SWTOR, we can figure you have about 16 hours per day. This gives you 5 * 7 hours + 2 * 16 hours = 67 hours.

 

So yes, if you spent every free hour you had on SWTOR over a week you could get full BM. This is true. Of course, most of us can't really spend every free moment on SWTOR... we generally have other responsibilities. We have to make/eat dinner, see the family, see friends... I know, so tedious! Now we start to get into the realm of speculation but I hope after this rather lengthy post (who are we kidding? You didn't get this far...) you start to see a true picture of the amount of time it takes to get your full BM set and how it's not a trivial endeavour.

 

Now consider that the OP says he loses much, much more than he wins and he spends most of that time in the spawn area. I can verify that last part because it's true... I'm a healer as well and can attest that people tend to mob healers, which means they die very fast.. So you're talking about spending every free moment for a week doing something completely, mind numbingly, dull!

 

If this is the gameplay SWTOR is shooting for, you and the few others like you will quickly find yourselves alone in a vast, empty universe.

 

assumptions

- using a 50% win ratio throughout, (you could lose every game and still get similar results)

- averaging 100 comms earned/game,

- can only play 6 games/day (just enough to complete a daily)

- 15min/game = 1.5 hours played / day

 

3 wins / 6 games played = 300 comms/ 3 win + 300 comms/ 3 losses + 99 comms / daily = ~700 comms/day

on day 3, you complete your weekly and get an additional 100 comms

therefore, you get 5000 comms in 1 week

 

in 1 week you could have the following important pieces

chest 1425

helmet 1075

pants 975

main 1550

=============

5025 comms required

 

after week 2, you would have the 7 other pieces

bracers 550

belt 625

boots 875

gloves 875

relic 550

implant 625

earpiece 625

===========

4725 comms required

 

2 days later, you get your

offhand 1550

 

considering it took me 2 months to get full BM pre 1.2 (feb-mar), and that i was relatively LUCKY to have RNG on my side, and in order to complete the daily, i HAD TO win 3 games (on some nights that took me 4 hours)....

 

in comparison, for an extremely average person who puts the minimal amount of effort in, 2 weeks GUARANTEED to get full BM is really nothing...

 

it is 75% faster to get BM now

 

edit: for the fresh 50's who were smart, you can use your 2000 comms that you saved from L1-49 PVP to buy your mainhand right away

Edited May 14, 2012 by wessik

[Herboss]

I played quite a few games last night I would consider were almost completely ruined by healers and the fact my team couldn't kill anyone, the opposition healers kept everything alive, the worst game I led kills on my team with 5.... The Ops leader had even marked one of the healers and I don't think we killed him once.

[Samaul]

assumptions

- using a 50% win ratio throughout, (you could lose every game and still get similar results)

- averaging 100 comms earned/game,

- can only play 6 games/day (just enough to complete a daily)

- 15min/game = 1.5 hours played / day

 

Your assumptions are bad. Lets look at some realistic assumptions

 

- using a 5% win ration or win 1 in 20 games

- less than 5 medals per game due to the following realities

 

1. Empire always has better gear therefore they always win.

2. I live less than 1 minute each time I spawn.

3. I die in 2-3 GCDs.

4. When focused by mulitple enemies, I die in under 5 seconds.

5. 1v1 I die in 10-20 seconds because again, they always have better gear.

6. I spend more time respawning than playing my character.

7. I get less than 5 medals per game, usually 1-3 medals.

8. I rarely get a chance to use my abilities, I am chain interrupted and stunned until I am dead.

9. I get less than half of the 100 commendations per game that you calculated.

10. It would take me more than twice as long as you calculated to get BM gear.

 

For me, SWTOR pvp has become torment as a sage healer. I have no opporutunity to play my character. I dont even get a chance to use my abilities most of the time. Chain stunned, slowed and interrupted until I am dead. I die so quickly that as one of my guild members said in a recent warzone "we never saw you". I am such an easy kill that the imps drop all other targets and hunt me down i packs. SWTOR pvp for me is a very unpleasant gaming experience. I refuse to subject myself to 80-100 hours of self abuse to get an armor set that will be obsolete in a few months.

 

Dying in 2-3 GCDs just is not fun.

[Samaul]

I played quite a few games last night I would consider were almost completely ruined by healers and the fact my team couldn't kill anyone, the opposition healers kept everything alive, the worst game I led kills on my team with 5.... The Ops leader had even marked one of the healers and I don't think we killed him once.

 

I could see myself doing that if I had the gear. The problem is that recruit gear is just too weak while BM is just too strong. There is no more centurion or champion gear so there is no smooth transition to BM gear.

Edited May 15, 2012 by Samaul

[Herboss]

I could see myself doing that if I had the gear. The problem is that recruit gear is just too weak while BM is just too strong. There is no more centurion or champion gear so there is no smooth transition to BM gear.

I don't get it though, it's not like you had a PVP set completely available to you when you hit 50 before 1.2, I remember hitting 50 on my first char and getting badly chewed in PVP til I earned some gear and it really didn't feel much different this time around 1.2. Edited May 15, 2012 by Herboss

[iheartnyc]

You know, there is a correlation that I've noticed between "bad" players and players who are undergeared. The "bads" generally don't have very good gear. Of course, not all the "geared" players are good either.

 

To take a mainstream example, in Modern Warfare (COD), there is a concept of "Prestige" ranks, which grants you certain bonuses. There are VERY few players at the upper-end of the prestige system who are simply "bad" players. In the game, you get better weapons and abilities as you get higher ranked. Not surprisingly, all this means is that the better players get these, and they just do even better.

[Samaul]

You know, there is a correlation that I've noticed between "bad" players and players who are undergeared. The "bads" generally don't have very good gear. Of course, not all the "geared" players are good either.

 

To take a mainstream example, in Modern Warfare (COD), there is a concept of "Prestige" ranks, which grants you certain bonuses. There are VERY few players at the upper-end of the prestige system who are simply "bad" players. In the game, you get better weapons and abilities as you get higher ranked. Not surprisingly, all this means is that the better players get these, and they just do even better.

 

Good point. I ignore and dont respond to the l2p posts. I do not suck as a healer in pvp and I know when the problem is the game and not my healing. If I dont live long enough to use my abilities, the problem is the game. I do not confuse gear with skill. However many do.

[Campaigner]

If you want to L2P make a video of you failing so we can /lol and throw you tips.

[Metalmac]

I don't get it though, it's not like you had a PVP set completely available to you when you hit 50 before 1.2, I remember hitting 50 on my first char and getting badly chewed in PVP til I earned some gear and it really didn't feel much different this time around 1.2.

 

Actually I just got to 50 and my healer is now retired as healing is no fun when you spend most of your time keeping your self alive and not really getting any time to heal others. Rather defeats the purpose of being a healer, huh?

 

I have 83 Valor on my healer and now 72 valor on my Sage. I play enough to know that it is much worse then when I leveled my healer. He is right the damage is way to high and the healing is nerfed 15% to much.

 

So either increase heals by 15% or lower all damage by that much, I prefer to remove 15% penalty from healing.

Edited May 15, 2012 by Metalmac

[Samaul]

Actually I just got to 50 and my healer is now retired as healing is no fun when you spend most of your time keeping your self alive and not really getting any time to heal others. Rather defeats the purpose of being a healer, huh?

 

I have 83 Valor on my healer and now 72 valor on my Sage. I play enough to know that it is much worse then when I leveled my healer. He is right the damage is way to high and the healing is nerfed 15% to much.

 

So either increase heals by 15% or lower all damage by that much, I prefer to remove 15% penalty from healing.

 

Roll back the expertise change to where damage, mitigation and healing buffs are all the same.

[Dmasterr]

Roll back the expertise change to where damage, mitigation and healing buffs are all the same.

 

You should go read what expertise actually does and what its purpose is, before requesting changes.

[Samaul]

You should go read what expertise actually does and what its purpose is, before requesting changes.

 

How condescending and how wrong. I know exactly what expertise does and what its purpose is. Currently expertise's purpose is to amp damage way up while nerfing healing into the ground in pvp.

[Dmasterr]

How condescending and how wrong. I know exactly what expertise does and what its purpose is. Currently expertise's purpose is to amp damage way up while nerfing healing into the ground in pvp.

 

Self owned.