S.A.G.E = Setting A Good Example?

[Sccorpion]

The Jedi consular sage. I'm sure that if you pvp on either side of the faction you have come across this class in WZ's and world pvp. This class is used mostly ranged abilities and is has very effective healing abilities. IMO one of the best healers in the game for groups. I can't help notice how often I run into them in warzones, and I would like to point out why.

 

SWTOR calls this class the most balanced class in the game. I beg to differ.

1. One of the best healers in the game.

2. Has very good DPS.

3. Countless cc's

4. Compensates the team very well.

 

Stats on Healer- Healing Abilities

Benevolence has a 1.5 sec cast time healing target and has no cooldown.

Deliverance has a 3 sec casting time healing target and has no cooldown.

Note: Cast time reduced to 2.5 seconds base when talented.

Rejuvenate is instant. Immediately heals a target and additional healing over 9 sec. . 6 second cooldown.

Note: Hot duration increased to 15 seconds when talented.

Healing Trance Channeled 3 sec. Immediately heals target and additional healing over 3 seconds. 9 sec cooldown.

Salvation 2 sec cast. Immediately heals allies within 8 meters of the targeted area, and additional healing over 10 seconds to allies who remain in the area. 15 sec cd.

Ability/Talent Interaction Effects

 

1.When talented, your Rejuvenate goes from a 9 sec Hot to a 15 sec Hot, causes the target to take 10% less damage while active, and when activated causes other healing abilities to be buffed until used:

1.Benevolence: Force cost reduced by 50% (cheaper fast heal)

2.Deliverance: Cast time reduced by 1 sec (1.5 sec big heal)

3.Salvation: Force cost reduced by 30% (cheaper AoE heal)

4.Healing Trance: critical effect increased by 25% (see below)

 

I do not like the healing in this game but I have to live with it and I'm not complaining about it. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with the sage healing. But when you add other elements to this ability we have a problem with the balance. I'm not saying nerf nerf but I think some things need to be changed about this class.

Jedi Sage have very good dps as well. That’s not a problem to me as well. But when you add Great DPS and very good healing abilities one would consider it a viable foe. Add countless cc abilities and we have a monster.

 

Force in balance

Force speed

Dispel

Force stun

Force lift

Force slow

Mind snap

Force will

Telekinesis Throw

 

As you can see the class has multiple cc abilities, and when trying to DPS, its really almost impossible when you bring in WZ armor and BM armor. Again I would like to say that although all of these abilities seem very overpowered I believe a clothy need cc's for survivability. IMO some of these abilities need to have longer cd,s or need be some kind of buff needs to be implemented into the game. Force speed needs to be breakable or cc able. Force lift is entirely too long. Telekinesis throw should be stationary and the slow it puts on people should have a much smaller range. I believe that some of these cc's need to be changed or longer cooldowns should be applied.

 

And for the biggest problem with this class is FORCE ARMOR.

Shield/Damage Prevention

Force Armor Instantly Shields target and prevents about 3.5k damage. Target cannot be re-shielded for 20 sec. 30 sec cd

Note: Cost reduced by 30 Force and cooldown by 3 seconds when talented.

(Originally posted by someone else but it's my thoughts exactly from pvp experience in WZ's.)

My general estimate is that the shields take about 5-7k damage to break. Others have said this can go as high as 9k. Mind you this is on a class that can also heal itself.

 

If the caster puts the shield on before engaging a target - which is quite common - by the time it is broken he won't have to wait much longer (if at all) to reapply it. It's quite common for a Sage to be able to shield, take some damage, CC, heal it up and then immediately shield again.

 

Basically what you're looking at here is a class that is supposed to be squishy and is nothing resembling that. Tanks don't really mitigate damage since most big attacks ignore your defenses anyway. Most have the ability to reduce damage by 25% or so for a small amount of time on a long cooldown (several minutes). A reasonably geared Sage with ~15000 HP essentially has the ability to extend this to ~25000 or more in one encounter, assuming we're using 5k absorption from the shield which is at the lower end of the estimation spectrum. If you assume they can absorb up to 9k then you're looking at around 33k effective HP, plus heals.

 

This is a HUGE advantage, as he can basically DPS at will while shielded, CC/Heal in between, and then resume DPS'ing as soon as his shield ban is up (15 seconds, I believe). They have a noticeable deal more survivability than a tank with ~19000 HP when the tank should be the one who is able to take more damage.

 

I really don't think Sages need a big nerf. Their damage is fine and their CC should be there for a class that's supposed to be squishy. The problem is that they're not squishy. A class that's essentially a nuker with some healing ability should be able to use the heals and defensive/CC spells to extend their life, but should not have anywhere near the lifespan of a tank or melee DPS class. A class that's specced for healing should be able to survive solely on the merits of their heals and defensive/CC spells, but won't do that much damage.

 

As it stands, this is not how things are working. Sages are able to put out significant damage, have solid CC, healing ability (which is all fine) and this shield which absorbs far, far too much damage with no bleed and a restriction cooldown that isn't enough of a detriment.

So adding all of these so called BALANCED abilities into a class I have found-

Very strong DPS. Boatload of cc abilities. Incredible healing. And a Force shield that practically never ends. In turn we have a class that everyone wants to play. I wonder why SWTOR says that it's there #1 baby. This class needs to be worked on and fixed before all the pvp is blown away by bubble's and rock projectiles!

Edited May 13, 2012 by Sccorpion

[Ancen]

You do realize that both sides have the exact same class, right? The Sorc is actually BETTER for dps since its animations don't cause a couple of seconds delay from hitting instant-cast spells to when it actually damages the target (lightning = instant, project for sage = few second animation before hit) as well as others.

[cycao]

Agreed, clearly we need to Nerf operatives.

[Annex]

Basically what you're looking at here is a class that is supposed to be squishy and is nothing resembling that. !

 

Funniest comment ever.

 

Wow. Sorc/Sage not squishy. I want what you are smoking.

[Elaril]

Darn Salvation Sages with Force in balance and their uninterruptable force lifts

[Siliconrose]

Also, how do I get Force Cloak as a Sage? Not only is the OP assuming 31/31/31, he's also pulling in things from the wrong AC!

[Laforet]

good sages dont use salvation

[fungihoujo]

Add countless cc abilities and we have a monster.

 

That's funny. Now, I don't know the sage names- but that's a joke right there. Since you're talking about healing....

 

Force slow- 6 seconds on a 12 second CD.

Force Lightning- has a CD and is channelled so you have to stand still while using it

Interrupt- every class but mercs have it- some have theirs on shorter CDs

Stun- not something unique either, most classes have a stun of some sort

Overload- short range knockback, aoe but has a delay unlike the sniper and merc aoe knockbacks- or even the jugg single target knockback

Mez- has a 2 second cast time and is single target- compare to aoe instant mezzes that agents and marauders have.

 

 

Look at in comparison an anni marauder

Aoe instant mez- obviously far superior, it has no cast time and affects an entire group

Channelled stun- not as good as sorc's instant stun as it's a second shorter and must be channeled

Instant slow in this case is 12 seconds long with no CD- far superior to a 6 second slow with 12 sec CD

Another slow added to rupture, apparantly it was needed so a hard hitting, instant spell could also slow- it's like crushing darkness but with a slow, and you don't have to get a proc for it to be instant.

Interrupt- on shorter CD, 6 seconds- meaning against a 2.5 second dark infusion heal, including the 4 second lockout, you can literally keep DI permanently interrupted with just that one ability

Accuracy debuff- can make several classes temporarily near useless, 45 sec CD

Root on leap- 2 seconds, 12 sec CD, goes through resolve- compare to a class that has zero roots unspecced- and the main root a sorc can get is off going 31 into a tree and missing out on the class's biggest damage ability

 

And frankly, that doesn't even touch on other specs, which lose a bit of CD bonus on debuff/interupt and the leap- but can gain things like- perma 15% run speed bonus and two extra roots, or an extra leap which has a speed bonus attached to it.

 

We can now compare the defensive CDs of a marauder to the sage/sorc's defensive CDs... but that'd be kind of dumb seeing as one class has a dozen- and the other has zero. Even the gap closer and escapes of a mara are more reliable- 20 sec CD, 2 sec sprint that can be CCed- including by roots through resolve- vs a 12 sec CD leap, or maybe two leaps with 15 sec CD- no way to stop the leap, and on shorter CD- and add escapes of a 5 sec immunity, a 45 sec CD stealth that can last up to 6 seconds and increase movement by 50%.

 

Ya, sage healers are monsters- that's the funniest joke I've heard all day. What's next, Madness sorcs have sick burst because they have one ability that can crit over 2k every 15 seconds? Wooooweee!!

Edited May 12, 2012 by fungihoujo

[tehrealdealz]

Agreed, clearly we need to Nerf operatives.

 

lmao. sadly I think this is exactly how BW thinks. Operatives are the red headed step child of SWTOR.

[Mirdthestrill]

Agreed, clearly we need to Nerf operatives.

 

Nice.

[LancelotOC]

Darn Salvation Sages with Force in balance and their uninterruptable force lifts

 

lolol

[Sccorpion]

Constructive critisism would be much more beneficial to the game than sarcastic and unhelpful replies people. Please reply to the post with your "professional opinions".

[Lithy]

Constructive critisism would be much more beneficial to the game than sarcastic and unhelpful replies people. Please reply to the post with your "professional opinions".

 

Those arn't fun replies though...

[syntxerr]

As it stands, this is not how things are working. Sages are able to put out significant damage, have solid CC, healing ability (which is all fine) and this shield which absorbs far, far too much damage with no bleed and a restriction cooldown that isn't enough of a detriment.

So adding all of these so called BALANCED abilities into a class I have found-

Very strong DPS. Boatload of cc abilities. Incredible healing. And a Force shield that practically never ends. In turn we have a class that everyone wants to play. I wonder why SWTOR says that it's there #1 baby. This class needs to be worked on and fixed before all the pvp is blown away by bubble's and rock projectiles!

 

Not sure whether you are seriously trying to completely destroy a class that's already struggling or simply making fun.

 

1.) Sages/Sorcs are extremely squishy. Especially with 1.2 Expertise changes.

2.) DPS Sages/Sorcs don't heal as well when DPS specced.

3.) Healing benefits less from Expertise than Damage.

4.) Healing is reduced by Trauma by a whopping 30%.

5.) Healing Sages don't do good DPS.

6.) Sages generally don't do the highest damage, especially not single-target.

7.) Sages are not the best PVP healers anymore, Scoundrels are.

8.) Force Armor holds one hit or a few dot ticks. A joke considering the numbers flying around.

 

Honestly, if you were not joking, you got almost everything wrong you claim in your post. Sorry to put it this way.

Edited May 13, 2012 by syntxerr

[Metalmac]

Have to agree this post is silly wrong and obviosly never plays PVP as he does not even know Force Cloak is a diffeent class and not Sage or Sorc. Also the comment on Force Armor being so great is LOL just stupid.

 

Once it is down a Sage is not long for this world and it does have a cooldown so again he is clueless.

 

http://www.youtube.com/user/CarbonicHolyPally?feature=mhee

Edited May 13, 2012 by Metalmac

[fungihoujo]

Constructive critisism would be much more beneficial to the game than sarcastic and unhelpful replies people. Please reply to the post with your "professional opinions".

 

Are you kidding? You don't get the abilities right, and you go on to provide simply utterly wrong info on the bubble ability a sage/sorc has. How can anyone respond to that without being sarcastic?

 

My professional opinion is to stop listening to people who say they think the bubble blocked X damage- you really, really, really want to know how much the bubble heals in pvp? Get on a sorc, get in combat, and stand in a flame jet with your bubble on- if it is blocking 10k damage, you'll be able to stand in it for three ticks before you get any damage applied to you- and with 16k health, you'll be able to stand in it for a total of 6-7 ticks before dying.

 

Fraps yourself taking 7 ticks of fire at 4k a tick and we'll see.

[Aehgo]

Yeah we are so OP our 1.5 second delive..oh wait that got nerfed well atleast we still have the hybri..oh that got nerfed too.

Well atleast we can do ...hmmm we are very good at dieing though,maybe OP infact.

NERF!

[ArysDayne]

1.When talented, your Rejuvenate goes from a 9 sec Hot to a 15 sec Hot, causes the target to take 10% less damage while active, and when activated causes other healing abilities to be buffed until used:

1.Benevolence: Force cost reduced by 50% (cheaper fast heal)

2.Deliverance: Cast time reduced by 1 sec (1.5 sec big heal)

3.Salvation: Force cost reduced by 30% (cheaper AoE heal)

4.Healing Trance: critical effect increased by 25% (see below)

 

1,5 sec Deliverance? Are you still playing 1.15?

And 10% more armor rating from Rejuvenate surely doesn't equal to 10% DR.

Edited May 13, 2012 by ArysDayne

[EsteRJ]

Most stuff is said already.

 

I personally enjoy my Sorc still. Dmg isn't bad at all with full Madness spec and we indeed have quite some tools at our disposal. Healing still works, Hybrid healers are very strong and "pure" healers shine when they got proper support.

 

I wouldn't mind an Ice Block equivalent though. Since everybody and his neighbor is hitting like a truck these days.

 

Any thoughts how this would cause too much trouble? But I doubt it will happen anyway.

[lpsmash]

Kinda related. I decided to log on my sage tonight and play a few warzones. I wasn't very enthusiastic (lol 9 person on the rep fleet when I logged on!), but I thought to myself that I'd wait 10 mins. To my surprise, I the queue popped after about 3 mins and I gladly took it.

 

>Pre-50 warzone, level-40 balance sage (until last point, the dot that roots). I wasn't dotting multiple targets, I was doing single-target focused damage. I don't think I ever dominated my opponents quite as much with any other class, and I played sniper and marauder with some ridiculous numbers. The fact is, I found that I had some pretty good damage, good control on my kill target and moderate control on other targets.

 

Survivability (admitedly, I was helped by the map) was great. Sprinting, healing myself, stunning, blowing up my opponent, rotting, taking the sprint in the pit and running towards healing buff.

 

Don't blame the class' survivability if you die vs 2 marauders and a powertech. Nobody lives through that (except a scoundrel that cleanse dots and vanishes). Sage offense is not mitigated by anything except a cooldown from assassins (shroud, I think? the cloak of shadow) except raw damage reduction, they have very good self healing, good mobility, making them very difficult to play against.

 

P.S. I haven't noticed any changes since I played my sage. They have always been very strong in my opinion. I guess a lot of people are simply melodramatic on the forums.

Edited May 13, 2012 by lpsmash

[Armelle]

>Pre-50 warzone, level-40 balance sage (until last point, the dot that roots). I wasn't dotting multiple targets, I was

 

This is where the useful info in your post ended.

[lpsmash]

This is where the useful info in your post ended.

 

Well I feel sorry for you if you think pre-50 doesn't matter. It's a bracket that isn't plagued by huge gear differences (although level difference CAN be a problem) and a lot of people play pre-50.

Edited May 13, 2012 by lpsmash

[pureeffinmetal]

My general estimate is that the shields take about 5-7k damage to break. Others have said this can go as high as 9k. Mind you this is on a class that can also heal itself.

 

Completely false. With talents it is about 3000. Maybe 3500.

 

Annihilate, Rail Shot, Smash, Hidden Strike, Ambush, HSM are all abilities that not only take off the shield in one hit, but if they crit will also deal damage to you as well.

 

Try again, OP.

[Vales]

You do realize that both sides have the exact same class, right? The Sorc is actually BETTER for dps since its animations don't cause a couple of seconds delay from hitting instant-cast spells to when it actually damages the target (lightning = instant, project for sage = few second animation before hit) as well as others.

 

Animations? Please, it is only one spell which has a slight delay compared to the mirror class counterpart, Project, otherwise there is no practical difference.

[OGsam]

Props on the acronym, that's about it though.