Marauder/sentinels

[fungihoujo]

You played the marauder for all of a week and found it to be good in almost all cases in comparison to other classes- imagine if you'd been playing it for months. I've been playing mine non-stop since 1.2- it is NOT an easy class to play well because in a fight I'll have good reason to use 10+ different abilities, and most of them will do something very useful.

 

It IS a class that is overpowered for the exact same reason though- you have almost double the useful situational abilities as any other class, you also have more room for error. If I mess something up as a marauder, I have so many tools for getting back into the fray.

 

If a sorc messes up his knockback though- which considering it has a one second delay and short range is quite easy- that is one error that has just cost him his life- and in a few seconds at that.

 

As a marauder, the only thing I can really mess up that'll leave me in trouble is either not getting a snare off right away- which is a pretty huge mess up considering after a leap you get a root long enough to apply it- or doing a leap that puts me in a position to get a bad knockback- ie off a ledge.

 

Even then, I have a very short CD vanish that gives me a reset on it.

 

When you play any other class you'll notice the abilities you have all simply don't measure up- and you'll be wasting 2-3 GCDs to do what a marauder can do in one.

[boulderbrian]

The OPs argument makes no sense. His premise is that marauders have 4 lives. When they are about to die, they can vanish and get healed to full (unlikely), then when about to die a second time use undying rage and get healed to full (unlikely again), then the third time vanish is back off CD so use it again (again the marauder gets healed to full) and now he dies the fourth time.

 

In what situation is an opposing team going to let a healer heal you to full 3 times? Why isn't this godly healer who can do this healing you before you have to use vanish/undying rage? How often as a marauder do you actually have a pocket healer (unless its a preset and hes ignoring your other teammates)?

 

Suppose the other team goes after your healer, which any descent group would do, then you only get 1 life because your vanish and undying rage do you no good while they are beating on your healer.

 

Suppose the other team ignores your healer, attacks you, and your healer lets them beat you until you are nearly dead. What do you suppose they do when you first vanish? Are they going to stand there dumbfounded that you disappeared, and wait for your full-health return? NO. They immediately go after your healer and now he cannot heal you, he dies, you get 1 life.

 

Marauders are the most squishy class in the game and once every few minutes they get to survive a little longer (not 4 lives long, that is ridiculous, only marginally longer unless you are able to get a health-pack after vanishing). If you propose to remove the CDs, then you must make their base survivability match other classes.

I would rather keep the CDs than have an increase in base survivability because the CDs add some more strategy (and fun) to the game (remember, marauders are not cookie cutter push 3 button boring classes like most). Marauders must time the use of their CDs otherwise when they start to take damage, they will die to quickly to be useful in a pvp situation.

[Gigabolt]

Marauders will be nerfed, no doubt about it.... just like hybrid sorc was = to many ppl whining on forum.

 

My proposed change tweaks the class so that your 1v1, etc ability will not be affected, and it will only take reduce your "cat" lives from 4 to 2, till you actually die in group fights.

 

Personaly? i couldn't care less what they do to the class, but the only ones who can not see its overpowered can't properly play it

 

lol yep you said it......

 

'Personaly? i couldn't care less what they do to the class' lol well you must care somewhat if your wiling to put up 1 or 2 whine threads yourself on the subject.'

 

'only ones who can not see its overpowered can't properly play it'

 

*shrugs* only ones who think its overpowered can't properly play their own classes.

[Isaccard]

I agree, Marauder/Sent cooldowns are ridiculous in PvP.

[HurricaneXXIV]

 

If a sorc messes up his knockback though- which considering it has a one second delay and short range is quite easy- that is one error that has just cost him his life- and in a few seconds at that.

 

As a marauder, the only thing I can really mess up that'll leave me in trouble is either not getting a snare off right away- which is a pretty huge mess up considering after a leap you get a root long enough to apply it- or doing a leap that puts me in a position to get a bad knockback- ie off a ledge

 

.

 

My healer is a sage, you have a stun, snare, knock back and a sprint. You have at least 4 outs to use on a Mara. If they leap to you it's even easier. I don't believe it's easyto do this every time but I do believe it's by design. You have to strafe and not turn and run. Mara's are not like ops, sages etc they have zero ranged attacks besides dispatch and mortal strike throw. I also don't believe you can balance a game where one range can lock out 1 melee full time because in a group setting it'd be absurd.

 

Fight them anywhere but in their face. They have 1 gap closer and 1 vanish that can be used defensively or offensively.

[Faat]

Don't nerf me brah posts are so funny to read.

 

/popcorn

[fungihoujo]

 

1) Their CC is not average, it's terrible. The bulk of sents/mara's play anhil/wm. This means they have 2 CC's. Awe, which breaks on damage and force stasis which requires the mara to stay in position and channel it. Where do Mara's fight, in the middle of everyone. This means while using force stasis they normally are really easy targets for people to pick off. Bad CC, the class was designed that way on purpose.

.

 

Let's compare to the so called 'best CC/utility class' the sorcerer.

 

Sorcs get a 2 second cast single target mez. A 4 second instant stun. A short range, delayed aoe knockback. They also get sprint, and some consider the 3.5k damage bubble a defensive CD. They get a channeled slow, and a 50% slow that lasts 6 sec and has a 12 sec CD.

 

Healers get no bonus CC. Madness gets the mez be instant and have a stun (fills resolve), and a 2 second root on 9 sec CD- also, mez breaks on damage, for a spec that relies entirely on dots to deal damage.

 

 

Marauders- instant aoe mez, 3 second channeled stun, 15 sec CD gap closer with a 2 second root. 50% slow that lasts 12 seconds, no CD. 20% damage reduction for 30 seconds on 1 minute CD. 45 sec CD 4 sec stealth with 30% bonus speed and 50% damage reduction. 12 sec 50% defense bonus, 25% damage reduction on 3 min CD- note, this can deflect sniper root even. Fury based party buff 50% move and 10% defense bonus for 10 seconds, move bonus applies to ball carrier- that's right, the class gets a raid buff. Shortest CD interrupt. 1 min CD debuff that makes target miss for 6 seconds with attacks that require accuracy- off GCD. And of course immunity to damage for 5 seconds ability. Add to that having only one ability that can be interrupted (force choke, and not by the target), and one other than can be negated by a knockback (ravage)- the rest are instants.

 

Marauders have 3 viable specs- all of which do more damage. And, all of which add more CC/defensive CDs. Carnage- roots for duration of ravage, 3 second root on deadly throw. Breaks snares/roots on force camo use, predation speed bonus is higher, leap root is longer, 15% movement speed bonus at all times.

 

Annihilation. Rupture gets a 50% slow, can reduce CD of cloak of pain, 15 sec leap is now 12 second CD. Can reduce accuracy debuff and interrupt CD. Increase force camo duration/speed. (you also get healing off dots)

 

Rage. Bonus leap with 1 sec root on 15 sec CD, includes a speed bonus after using it. 30 second reduction on Undying rage. A bonus, powerful slow.

 

 

So, measuring up marauder- who you say are terrible for CC/utility- to sorcs, who are apparantly the best CC/utility class in the game... yeah, really looks like marauders are suffering- considering they have more unspecced utility/CC abilities than a sorc can get in any single spec- and they get even more abilities when specced in viable specs.

 

That doesn't even get into the fact that other than the 31 point madness talent root- all sorc CC is negated by resolve, and some classes have abilities to ignore those CC for a while too, and, the sorc escape can be easily countered- including roots which means even a full resolve sorc can have their sprint entirely wasted by any half decent marauder/juggernaut.

Edited May 10, 2012 by fungihoujo

[Tormm]

I can tell you why guarded by the force is so strong and people scream OP. Any watchman spec'd sent with experience is going to be ready to pop Guarded By The Force>Rakata Med Pac>Valorous Call>Cauterize/OS>Zen.

The healing/dps we get from this chain puts us back in the fight and you are probably dead.

 

Pro Tip: We can be cc'd as soon as you see guarded by the force unless you filled our resolve bar too early. Guarded lasts 5 seconds.

[LancelotOC]

Did you play all 3 specs across your week of play time? I would say we have 1 spec that has high damage one average and one low. And you cant say a class is OP based on having a pocket healer that makes no sense.

 

Come on now, healers dont need buffs because tanks exist but Maruaders can't be called Op when healers exist? Make up your minds.

 

My opinion is every class should be balanced 1 vs. 1 . There is enough stuff between gear, WZ class mix, skill, and buffs to make classes play different.

[Celebrus]

The OP's argument is pretty awesome.

 

First, he's all like, mara/sent is OP, but only because of pocket healers.

 

Then, he's all like, but they're not really OP, because I'm just such a good player that I mastered the class even though I kill them easily on my other characters.

 

Then, he's all like, but I know I spent a good portion of time making and reporting back to this desperate "nerf maras" thread, but I really don't actually care about what happens, even though I know for a fact that mara/sent will be nerfed.

 

Yeah, the logic is strong in this one.

[Xerain]

In group pvp, this means healers, marauder get out of jail free cards are OP. If i was about to die, i force camouflage which gives my healer plenty of time to catch up. When im about to die a second time i use Undying rage with a medpack... which gives my healer plenty of time.... when im about to die a 3rd ! time force camo is back up... which leaves me to die a 4th time (if you don't miss the window of oportunity till my cds come back up)

 

The reason ppl cry about marauder/sentinels is that you have to kill them 4 freaking times to actually die in group pvp. Do you guys remember wow season 3/4 when Rogue cheat death was op? it was 3 seconds of 99% dmg reduction on a 1 min internal cd. .... and marauders basically get 2 of them LOL

[/color]

 

My solution to fixing this is the following, make force camouflage reduce healing recieved by 100% (just like operative/assassin vanish), especially since it has a much shorter cooldown.

 

Yeah in group pvp against bad pugs it can work like this, but does it always? No. I don't get to blow all my CD's like that ever. I can run in and out of a fight in void star while defending and keeping our healers in mid and stay up for a long time and do just like everyone else and LOS with the pillars but in every other warzone just no.

 

Our defenses are what gives us the ability to put out the damage we do, if we're dead we're not putting out any damage. You nerf a marauders defense and you nerf their damage output.

 

The pvp in this game is focused heavily on team play and we all know a healer can't keep himself up while being pressured by a good dps and keep up all the others on his team.