ninefingalynx Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 I don't post often, but I have been playing mmos for 15 years, so I know most of the reasons people quit them. I will start by saying that the churn rate of this game isn't any worse than other big mmos. WoW has huge churn and the majority of people that play it quit it. But, WoW didn't have any MMO that had more than a million subscribers to compete with (much less 9 million). It also didn't have many high quality free to play games to compete with. It was sort of a virtuous cycle for Activision when people kept up their subscriptions. That kept many of their friends subscribing and more of their friends trying the game than if those people had quit the game quickly. There is nothing EA/Bioware can do about that. However, this game has a huge barrier to entry in that it lags on "good" laptops that are a just year old with decent graphics. Many other people on computers also lag, even at the lowest available settings. Whereas, WoW is starting to make their game available on tablets, which are relatively weak in power. Most computers can run several instances of WoW at once. Few laptops have issues with other MMO's. Performance is an issue... I have 6 battlemaster toons and win most of the time. Point being I have credibility and do not complain due to my own incompetence. Lag in warzones is problematic. People are able to exploit their location and make it look as though they are walking off a bridge when in reality they are somewhere else. I can freeze a guy in the middle of the fire pit and he will be sitting there for 3 seconds, while the fire is burning, and suddenly he warps far past the pit (clearly the game now says that is where the person was the whole time). There is all kinds of frustration that needlessly emanates from this fact. My hardware and internet are not the issue. The servers are or the way they get info from people is. Also, even on my i7 computer with a legit crucial SSD, it takes 30 seconds or longer to zone into the open world zones. That is rediculous when you are trying to requeue a warzone. Of course, the devs could make an option to auto-requeue the whole group, but I digress. Most games do not have these issues in this day and age. I could play two instances of Everquest 2, which has comparable/better graphics than this game, and not have the same issues (so long as spell particles are turned down). Do something about this. The biggest complaint people have is hollow server populations. This is more of a function of the game not rewarding group play enough. The solo rewards are wonderful in this game... do not change them. Instead, fix the group rewards. I assume that the game is intended to be extremely easy to get into, with the goal to have people get invested in their characters. Smart move. The difficulty curve is perfectly fine... I even applaud it. Where the developers went wrong is making all of the rewards cookie cutter. Tier 1/2/3/4/5/6/7 with different names and appearances, but the same stats and effects. Maybe this was to save resources at launch, but the very next thing that needs to be done (beyond bug fixes) is adding rare loot that feels unique... Let me explain it this way: I have seen people run zones/flashpoints, that they absolutely hate, as many as 50 or 100 times trying to get 1 thing they have their heart set on. In Everquest 1 and 2 and other MMOs people would run zones that were 1 or 2 expansions (2-3 years) old, because there was intelligent itemization implemented. The key is to make items that are not overpowered, while not undermining the viability of those items for a while. A wonderful example would be a piece of gear in EQ2 that had a small chance to proc a 10% base damage increase. This was an item that everyone on the server would want, but few had. However it wasn't the end all, be all item because it had poor stats. In PvP you wouldn't typically use this item (imagine no expertise or hitpoints on it). On a punishing flashpoint or raid boss you wouldn't wear this item. But you had tons of fun using it on trash and on easy encounters. This is the extreme example or course. Point is, instead of making 20 flashpoints that everyone hopefully loves, the developers are far better off making fun and fairly challenging zones, but putting most of the effort into the reward structure. You should also realize that people do get excited for rare loot even when their friends get it. People wouldn't mind the frustration or repetition, if they felt like there was something gained at the end. Out of my last guild, the majority of players did not run each flashpoint more than once (to see it for the first time). Now add all the players that already know flashpoints are below average rewards. Then add all the players who have better gear than the flashpoint can offer. Now it becomes clear why so few people run flashpoints or log in as much. Plus, there are probably many more people that know they can't beat the hard enrage timer with a bunch of undergeared (new) people. Normal mode flashpoints are not very rewarding, so at least add a rare chance for hard mode loot. My experience: The first time I did Black Talon, I was amazed. All the way through Directive 7 flashpoints were fun. One area where the devs went wrong is making hard enrage timers. The zones are still easy for my friends, but that is a lazy system and makes for either too easy or too hard outcomes. Everyone knows the argument that a hard enrage makes no logical sense as well. If the monster could hit 2x as hard, why doesn't it do it when it is about to die, even if you kill it fast? Diablo 3 has a better solution, such as spawning extra monsters or adding another managable mechanic, rather than making the monster hit 2x harder. I also don't do flashpoints or OPs anymore, because it got old without anything to look forward to (loot). It especially wore on my guildmates when some people got their cookie cutter set of t8 gear and quit the game (temporary or not) after we wasted their time to help get them gear. This happens in all games, but in most MMOs, even the most selfish people had to stick around longer than the month it takes to get a full set of t8. I have seen and expect it to continue that people will get most of the gear they want from raids and quit soon thereafter. I know there are guilds with 90% retention rates out there, but I bet few raid guilds can accomplish this given the reward structure. I can essentially take 6 months off from the game and come back and get a full set of t9 gear without missing a beat. End game should not be that trivial. Starter gear is great. Fix the end game. To be clear, I am not saying aspects of the game require limited skill. I am saying many people will feel disinclined to play for these reasons, even if they don't realize why. Side note... 8 mans are too easy and 16 mans are just frustrating, without any extra reward. It makes no sense that most guilds run 2 seperate 8 man raids rather than a 16 man. It also sucks when my 8 man raid is finished and the other one can't clear their zone. Bad for the community. There also needs to be a heirloom system to let you transfer bound items between your characters on an account. Reason being... a healer would be willing to heal for people, even if his main incentive is to do a zone for alt loot. A tank would tank a zone for others for the same reason. I guarantee you that this makes it easier for people to find groups and less complicated to run zones. By the way I do want to give props to the devs for the spec system. That is very useful in this arena. Promising rated warzones soon and not delivering is a big mistake. This is exacerbated by two facts. One, queues take up to 15 minutes or longer outside of prime hours. Two, people (on republic side especially) can game the system by queing two 4man groups at the same time. Effectively, they are bringing an 8 man premade against, at worst, a 4 man premade and at least 1 or 2 "noobs". In other words, I have seen republic teams win every game they play for days straight. I play on both sides of this, so I can tell you the typical way this plays out is one or more people quit within the first minute of the warzone. This makes it hard for the remaining players to even get their medals(rewards). Rated warzones or at least cross server queues would fix this immediately. The experience would be better for both sides. The premades would have a challenge. The unorganized groups would have sliver of a chance. Also, I would add one more mechanic/skill to each class that you have to target with your mouse like aes, but make it easier to do. Putting AE's down in this game is far too tedious. especially if you arent looking down at the ground. Reason why you need this: it's possible to beat everything in this game just by using your left hand on the keyboard. I won't mention what my other hand is doing I know it's long. But, I hope either this gets to a dev OR they already know the gist of what I am saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ninefingalynx Posted May 8, 2012 Author Share Posted May 8, 2012 I would also like to see group space missions that have randomization involved. You could practically write a macro to beat space missions because they are exactly the same every time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skygon Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 Free transfers, cross-server queue and RANKED WARZONE, and they need to do it fast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ninefingalynx Posted May 8, 2012 Author Share Posted May 8, 2012 (edited) Free transfers, cross-server queue and RANKED WARZONE, and they need to do it fast. I see no reason why they can't take their lowest pop servers and merge them. Or remove the server and allow those people to transfer free to any server. Most companies do $20 transfers beyond that. Maybe they will listen to you, but I dunno. With content constantly updated every 3 months, there won't be a huge rush to play when xpaks come out, so the servers can handle a larger, but less active population. Agree with all. The pvp is so imbalanced at the moment. I also hope they prevent the duping that other games experienced when they did cross server warzones! Edited May 8, 2012 by ninefingalynx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ironcleaver Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 (edited) When it comes to load times it got horrible when 1.2 hit. before 1.2 you could rename (disable) the annoying splashscreen JPG so that it would not pop up all the time randomally (bug) and while zoning. I didn't care if i saw the world build around my character, I was in the world fast and could start working crew skills. Without the splashscreen I could log out of one character and log back in on another character in under 15 seconds (if they were parked in the same zone). Even loading up different zones (like warzones) was faster due to not all the resources being reloaded from scratch. The deal was, if you could click another character fast enough and hit "play" you didn't have to reload all the resources again, from scratch.. I'm running on a fairly old computer (P4 3.2Ghz Wolfdale, 2GB Memory, GF260, 1TB WD Black) and this little trick was wonderful. I couldn't even imagine how fast this would be if I had a SSD and not a Physical Drive. 1.2 hit and this can no longer be done - all resourecs loaded from scratch each and every time while zoning or loading new characters, if it is needed or not. Now I'm back to crushingly slow load times and changing characters went from less then 15s to over a minute and a half. So inefficient to say the least. :-/ I still disable the splashscreen since it still, after patch 1.2, pops up at complete random times durring game play - at least thats ones less bug I have to deal with. I'd much rather have the speed back though. Edited May 8, 2012 by Ironcleaver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xxdragonragexx Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 (edited) This game has post 50 content that is not worth $15 dollars. Seriously, 4 warzones and a gear grind is post 50 content for PvPers. PvErs nightmore mode dungeons are decent but still not worth $15 due to lack of addictive crafting, high end beautiful mounts, and things that are just awesome to have. Cross server lfg system and cross server battlegrounds should have been implemented on the start of the game. TLDR: In short - this game doesn't have post 50 content that is worth $15 dollars. Edited May 8, 2012 by xxdragonragexx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ninefingalynx Posted May 8, 2012 Author Share Posted May 8, 2012 This game has post 50 content that is not worth $15 dollars. Seriously, 4 warzones and a gear grind is post 50 content for PvPers. PvErs nightmore mode dungeons are decent but still not worth $15 due to lack of addictive crafting, high end beautiful mounts, and things that are just awesome to have. Cross server lfg system and cross server battlegrounds should have been implemented on the start of the game. TLDR: In short - this game doesn't have post 50 content that is worth $15 dollars. I already quoted you and agreed in other threads lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tegue Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 (edited) I was just talking about this with my wife (who also plays). I think in the short-term they need to get the population stuff sorted out and introduce the ranked WZs. I think that would alleviate a lot of the gripes going on right now just because it would help produce a carrot that would allow people to compare how they fair against other players in a meaningful way. In the long-term they need more carrots. Sort out the gearing for the end-game PvE, but also provide other time consuming tasks that work towards a tangible goal. Things you can can show off will always will be one of the major driving forces that keep people playing (be it raid gear, PvP ranked gear, or fluff mounts/pets/titles). The legacy system has added some of this, but those rewards are only truly tangible to me. My fear is that while they are likely going to deliver on these it may come too late. I really enjoy SWTOR, and for my own selfish reasons I hope they can get things rolling so that people stick around and the game has a chance to be successful. Edited May 8, 2012 by Tegue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darthdesadarius Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 Wow, I lost interest in your post after the 1st paragraph. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DiabloMuerto Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 For my personal play style the problem with the current state of the game is the poorly balanced PvP and the terrible random, crap pile of a crafting system. This game has one of the best itemizationi systems ever in an MMO but the entire crafting system is fairly terrible and the economy is pathetic. You either have to have reliable friends that are crafters or multiple alts with all crafting professions if you ever want anything crafted in this game b/c the GTN is a barren wasteland for the most part. One thing I did always like about WoW, you could always find anything you were too lazy to get/make yourself on the AH. A lot of the problem with the system in SWTOR is the random crap they chose to go with. It's why you can rarely find simple things like low level resources on the AH. No one really wants to waste time and money getting those to sell, and then it's hard to price the b/c no one is going to keep track of how much they spent on the missions to get 'x' amount of this resource. It's just silly they way they chose to build the system. Far as PvP, I could go on about it for a while but right now I'd actually just be glad if they fixed resolve, that would actually cut out about 70% of my annoyance with PvP. It's a major mechanic of PvP and it has never worked right and I don't even know if they acknowledge that it is a problem. I honestly am starting to feel about this game the same way I felt about WoW before I quit, the only difference is I played WoW for a little over 5 years before I got to that point. I guess the other difference is that if I did quit SWTOR, I might come back when they dropped an expac, there's no chance of that with WoW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ninefingalynx Posted May 8, 2012 Author Share Posted May 8, 2012 Darthdarious: that is because you are too dense to realize I am saying ToR has to do it better than WoW to gain/keep subs and explaining why. Diablo: I agree the base starter and medium gear from raids and comms is an awesome system, especially since you can craft good stuff and augment it. However, I do have an issue that you can slice and gain credits plus all the materials out of thin air. That ruins the economy and the value of crafted materials. They should increase the slice cost and time. Other mmos also take fuel (credits) to craft. The reverse engineering doesnt give much back either and should give more. Everynoe should be able to reverse engineer everything. PvP needs rated and cross server badly. Hopefully they could also do a ranking system in the rated like starcraft or HoN. How it works is that your teams average rating determines the rewards and rating point you get or lose if you win. This gives more incentive to not overstack a team. Resolve works ok, but its lame so many things can root you still and gives advantages to warriors and tank powertechs especially when you have a dumb team that fills resolve on a ballcarrier or healer for no reason. I do sell tons of stuff on the GTN, like 50mil worth. The market isn't bad but they should only show the cheapest of an item so it isnt so easy for people to undercut you. IE: you list a full stack of something someone is going to undercut you for sure. If they can only see that there is 1 at that price and dont know the quantity, they might not choose to undercut you. When people get undercut constantly they stop putting low mats on sale and focus on big money items like t6 materials. Adding a 3rd day wouldn't hurt either. Totally agree that its tedious to figure out how much it cost you to get your mats. This wouldn't be a problem if you could simply sell them for a lot thou. Increase timers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackardin Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 What needs to be done to keep subscribers Kill this board. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayla_Felana Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 Kill this board. Bingo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sochet Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 OP, I think you touched on some important issues. I myself, along most of my guild, have stopped playing the game. The primary reason is the community. Seems like all the people we enjoyed playing with have quit. My server is now dominated with a lot of cynics and e-snobs who love to call everyone in game a "noob." I think this is probably not happening on all servers, but it has on ours. I mean putting up with some of the people on certain servers just isn't worth it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bugattiboy Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 What needs to be done to keep subs? Simple. EA needs to stop being themselves and be I don't know, a publisher that actually CARES about it's fans and consumers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallorik Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 #1 server transfers #2 x-server lfg tool asap, dont waste your time with same server, its been tried several times before and its not going to magicaly work this time so just bring on the x-server and get it over with. #3 Gear itemization (make running fps, 16man ops, nightmare mode desirable) ranked warzones, dual specs, macros (not the bad kind), #4 now put your teams back on making all the crap that do not make people leave your game for not having like vanity pets and day and night cycles in warzones. #5 start figuring out if you need to do even more, like add ons (no i dont like add ons but if it helps retain subscribers ill vote for them) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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