how do yall get 4k crits?

[Sookster]

Does anyone know if there is a cap on the crit?

 

I am not rly a number/stats person but can anyone confirm me that its better to have main stat augments (f.e. operative +18 skill, +12 endurance) instead of the overkill augments (+18 power, +12 endurance) because of the extra crit you get with main skill modifier?

 

Yes crit (without agent buff) up to 35% if possible, surge up to 70-72% (that's about 240 surge rating). It's easy to cap both and still get up around 400-500 power, but you could drop crit from 35% down to 30% and gain another 100ish power.

Edited May 10, 2012 by Sookster

[Exiled-Phoenix]

This is correct.

 

As for those saying crit increases your overall DPS, its simply true only to a certain point, and for two reasons.

 

First, you need to consider the frequency of a crit. Even with a 40% critical chance, the majority of your hits - 60% - are not crits. Boosting their attacks with power means that you're doing more damage all the time instead of just a portion of the time. Of course, critical hits are so good that this factor alone can't make power better after 25% crit.

 

However, you need to then factor in the fact that increasing your power also increases the strength your critical hits, so adding power makes the critical chance you already have better.

 

Of course, its necessary to balance these and to find the sweet spot where the benefits are maximized. Those of us that have done so find around 25 - 27% to be a good crit number. (Some say 20%, though I'd only go that far with the legacy operative buff to make sure I had the extra boost at all times).

 

Finally someone who understands how crit works

[Astarica]

If you have 35% crit (including buff) your Power is going to be in the 200s. It doesn't matter how you customized your gear you have because Crit + Power is basically a fixed number due to how itemization works. Having 400-500 Power would basically mean every slot you have is Power, and that'd drop your Crit closer to the 25% range. At that point you've to actually worry about Recklessness wasting a charge on a FL that didn't all crit which may have an adverse effect on your burst DPS.

 

The only way to get around this is if you wear stuff with higher main stat, but either you're wearing PvE stuff (Matrix Cube, for example) or you're wearing the Sorcerer version of the gear. Either way there are drawback to be wearing that stuff (less survivality in both cases).

[Exiled-Phoenix]

Any deception/infiltration spec is running around with a 2.05-2.3 crit damage multiplier. Stacking Power instead of crit chance means you are not capitalizing on your talent points and innate stats.

 

Saying that higher crit chance does not directly increase dps is also absolutely wrong. It is simple math that your average hit includes crit chance, base damage and dps bonus. Increasing any of those, directly increases your average hit and saying "if you don't crit, higher crit chance is useless", makes me want to get electro shock therapy.

 

Who the hell is talking about average hits? this thread is about max damage, not sustained DPS.

If your crit is hitting for 3.7k and you want it to hit 4k, are you going to add more crit? cuz that is not going to make you hit any harder, its just going give you a 3.7 more often.

[Sookster]

Well here's an old guide, but should give you an idea

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=337892&highlight=bis

 

Since then, surge has been changed to have an earlier DR so 393 surge is overboard (I stop at 240) and like I said you can have 400-500 power if you get other stats up.

Edited May 10, 2012 by Sookster

[Astarica]

Well here's an old guide, but should give you an idea

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=337892&highlight=bis

 

Since then, surge has been changed to have an earlier DR so 393 surge is overboard (I stop at 240) and like I said you can have 400-500 power if you get other stats up.

 

Power has nothing to do with Surge because they're on separate itemization. Power only comes at the expense of Endurance or Crit. Surge comes at the expense of Accuracy and while Surge is overrated, you need even less Accuracy now thanks to the companion buff of 1% so you can drop even more Accuracy compared to before.

[Payneintherear]

Who the hell is talking about average hits? this thread is about max damage, not sustained DPS.

If your crit is hitting for 3.7k and you want it to hit 4k, are you going to add more crit? cuz that is not going to make you hit any harder, its just going give you a 3.7 more often.

 

I told you to stop posting for a reason. You use terms like dps and lump it in with max hits. You are a logical nightmare. Also the numbers presented by the other poster above are absolutely meaningless, as they do not reflect in-game values in any way.

 

2500 non-crit Shocks turning into 3300 non-crit Shocks due to stacking power instead of crit chance? What planet do you guys live on? Look at your tooltip values. Those tooltip values show non-crit pre-mitigation values. No power in the world is going to make you get 3.3k non-crit (let alone the power you can exchange for crit and post-mitigation values).

 

So just to make you guys understand what power really does:

 

Take an ability like Shock/Project. This ability has a damage bonus coefficient of 1.55. This means that every point of force damage bonus will add 1.55 damage to your Shock/Project. Now aim really high for how much power you gain over somebody that stacks crit instead and you'll come up with less than 800 probably. I'll be generous and make it 870 (this is roughly 200 damage bonus, as each point of power adds 0.23 dps bonus).

 

So at best 200 damage bonus translate to 310 extra damage on your Project/Shock (non-crit) over somebody who stacks crit instead. We now take this value of 310 and multiply it by 2.25 (75% surge and crit modifying talent). Going all out on power stacking will net you a pre-mitigation increase of 697.5 damage per Shock on crit over somebody stacking only crit.

 

Now 870 crit rating will translate to ~25% higher crit chance. Assuming your crit chance in the power setup is 20ish%, your crit chance in the crit setup will be around 45%. Assuming a tooltip damage of 1500 for Shock for the crit build and 1810 for the power build, the crit build's Shock will deal 3.59% more damage than the power build's.

 

This calculation does not account for power adrenals which are going to be used by both builds exclusively, driving the base damage up, thus making power less attractive (relative damage that power adds diminishes the higher the base damage gets), it does also not include the damage buff from Voltaic Slash, which would slightly favor power, but still see crit pull ahead and most importatly it does not factor in the burst difference that is heavily favoring the crit build.

 

So, in essence, for deception/infiltration, even a crit build that runs heavily into DR is mathematically producing higher dps than a power build, unless you only want to fight every 75 seconds and count on 3 charges of force potency killing your target.

[Exiled-Phoenix]

I told you to stop posting for a reason. You use terms like dps and lump it in with max hits. You are a logical nightmare. Also the numbers presented by the other poster above are absolutely meaningless, as they do not reflect in-game values in any way.

I'm sorry, am i pain in the *** to you?

To bad, your problem, not mine.

2500 non-crit Shocks turning into 3300 non-crit Shocks due to stacking power instead of crit chance? What planet do you guys live on? Look at your tooltip values. Those tooltip values show non-crit pre-mitigation values. No power in the world is going to make you get 3.3k non-crit (let alone the power you can exchange for crit and post-mitigation values).

Go google the definition of the word "example"

 

So just to make you guys understand what power really does:

 

Take an ability like Shock/Project. This ability has a damage bonus coefficient of 1.55. This means that every point of force damage bonus will add 1.55 damage to your Shock/Project. Now aim really high for how much power you gain over somebody that stacks crit instead and you'll come up with less than 800 probably. I'll be generous and make it 870 (this is roughly 200 damage bonus, as each point of power adds 0.23 dps bonus).

 

So at best 200 damage bonus translate to 310 extra damage on your Project/Shock (non-crit) over somebody who stacks crit instead. We now take this value of 310 and multiply it by 2.25 (75% surge and crit modifying talent). Going all out on power stacking will net you a pre-mitigation increase of 697.5 damage per Shock on crit over somebody stacking only crit.

 

Now 870 crit rating will translate to ~25% higher crit chance. Assuming your crit chance in the power setup is 20ish%, your crit chance in the crit setup will be around 45%. Assuming a tooltip damage of 1500 for Shock for the crit build and 1810 for the power build, the crit build's Shock will deal 3.59% more damage than the power build's.

 

This calculation does not account for power adrenals which are going to be used by both builds exclusively, driving the base damage up, thus making power less attractive (relative damage that power adds diminishes the higher the base damage gets), it does also not include the damage buff from Voltaic Slash, which would slightly favor power, but still see crit pull ahead and most importatly it does not factor in the burst difference that is heavily favoring the crit build.

 

So, in essence, for deception/infiltration, even a crit build that runs heavily into DR is mathematically producing higher dps than a power build, unless you only want to fight every 75 seconds and count on 3 charges of force potency killing your target.

 

Thats great and everything, but if you want to stack a whole extra 25% crit (without proc's, tree buffs or IA buff) you are going to need more then 870 crit points because that only gives you an extra 20-22% (unless you would like to add a screenshot of your own crit points + bonus% that you get from it to prove me wrong.)

 

And even with tree boosters and IA buff on crit, you're never going to reach a point where all your hits crit.

[Payneintherear]

I'm sorry, am i pain in the *** to you?

Go google the definition of the word "example"

 

I'll have a hard time finding a dictionary which explains the word "example" as "using meaningless numbers so they fit my argument".

 

I am going to educate you once again. If you are arguing with a friend about which car is more economic (your Mustang versus his Land Rover, using real values for fuel efficiency over a set distance would be the way to go in an example (and from there different examples can be elaborated that might have different outcomes based on different premises). Claiming your favorite Mustang has twice the fuel efficiency than any other Mustang out there and thus Mustangs are more economic is not an example, because your claim is simply false).

 

Thats great and everything, but if you want to stack a whole extra 25% crit (without proc's, tree buffs or IA buff) you are going to need more then 870 crit points because that only gives you an extra 20-22% (unless you would like to add a screenshot of your own crit points + bonus% that you get from it to prove me wrong.)

 

Just for your information, even at 22% crit chance for 870 crit rating, the crit build pulls ahead of the power build by 1.1% dps.

 

And even with tree boosters and IA buff on crit, you're never going to reach a point where all your hits crit.

 

Reading a line like this makes me wonder what's going on in that little brain of yours...what does that even have to do with anything at all?

 

This is a dps comparison between a power build and a crit build. It's not assuming crits of one build vs. non-crits of the other build. It's simply comparing damage per Shock and the resulting dps.

Edited May 11, 2012 by Payneintherear

[Exiled-Phoenix]

I'll have a hard time finding a dictionary which explains the word "example" as "using meaningless numbers so they fit my argument".

 

I am going to educate you once again. If you are arguing with a friend about which car is more economic (your Mustang versus his Land Rover, using real values for fuel efficiency over a set distance would be the way to go in an example (and from there different examples can be elaborated that might have different outcomes based on different premises). Claiming your favorite Mustang has twice the fuel efficiency than any other Mustang out there and thus Mustangs are more economic is not an example, because your claim is simply false).

 

 

 

Just for your information, even at 22% crit chance for 870 crit rating, the crit build pulls ahead of the power build by 1.1% dps.

 

 

 

Reading a line like this makes me wonder what's going on in that little brain of yours...what does that even have to do with anything at all?

 

This is a dps comparison between a power build and a crit build. It's not assuming crits of one build vs. non-crits of the other build. It's simply comparing damage per Shock and the resulting dps.

 

Then go and bring some damage logs of your crit build here instead of placing speculating numbers and saying "my numbers are accurate"

[Payneintherear]

Then go and bring some damage logs of your crit build here instead of placing speculating numbers and saying "my numbers are accurate"

 

What numbers in my posts do you think are arbitrary, genius?

[IronmanSS]

The question that needs to be asked is if there is a point on the curve in between the theoretical endpoints of 870 power or crit where the return from having blended both stats gives a higher dps output than maxing either endpoint alone. If there was such a point (spec dependent of course), I'm sure people would be interested in what it was.

[Flattylol]

You guys are all pretty iffy at math, but I thought I'd point out that discussing "dps" in a pvp thread is pretty asinine. I can't think of an MMO where pve dps theorycrafting translates well into pvp scenarios. Power stacking is clearly the way to go for sustained, pve-style dps. PvP scenarios are shorter, bursty-type fights in most circumstances. In pretty much every MMO, crit-stacking is more often than not going to give you "better" (and I use that term losely) results in a pvp scenario where it's "kill or be killed".

 

Furthermore, the answer to the question posted by the OP (how do yall get 4k crits) is a really simple one. Stacking crit certainly isn't going to do that... but you all got derailed talking about power stacking. To get 4k crits, get better gear and pick on weaker opponents. It's that simple. Without min/maxing slots, you can still get above 4k crits with standard amounts of surge, power, (crit), and willpower on the BM/WH pvp gear.

[Payneintherear]

You guys are all pretty iffy at math, but I thought I'd point out that discussing "dps" in a pvp thread is pretty asinine. I can't think of an MMO where pve dps theorycrafting translates well into pvp scenarios. Power stacking is clearly the way to go for sustained, pve-style dps. PvP scenarios are shorter, bursty-type fights in most circumstances. In pretty much every MMO, crit-stacking is more often than not going to give you "better" (and I use that term losely) results in a pvp scenario where it's "kill or be killed".

 

You may notice that I pointed out the clear superiority of crit in regards to burst damage in my analysis.

 

The question that needs to be asked is if there is a point on the curve in between the theoretical endpoints of 870 power or crit where the return from having blended both stats gives a higher dps output than maxing either endpoint alone. If there was such a point (spec dependent of course), I'm sure people would be interested in what it was.

 

The perfect sweet spot depends on the individual damage bonus coefficient of an ability. So you'd have to break down the distribution of your abilities by dps and then calculate the average coefficient in order to find the sweet spot.

[Kllashaa]

The question that needs to be asked is if there is a point on the curve in between the theoretical endpoints of 870 power or crit where the return from having blended both stats gives a higher dps output than maxing either endpoint alone. If there was such a point (spec dependent of course), I'm sure people would be interested in what it was.

It took 4 pages before someone could summarize the dilemma in two sentences. The amount of math and stat ignorance in this thread astounds me.

Just for your information, even at 22% crit chance for 870 crit rating, the crit build pulls ahead of the power build by 1.1% dps.

I haven't put together a model yet, but my gut instinct tells me that the crit build is superior, even if it isn't taking Force Synergy/Exploitive Strikes into consideration. Statistically speaking, with a low-crit high-power build, you'll be lucky to string together 2 or 3 crits in sequence outside of the Force Potency/Recklessness window, and it's crit strings that kill healers and low-armor targets.

 

This is particularly noteworthy given how good operatives are at healing sub-30% targets, and how people usually don't blow their defensive cds until they drop below 30-40% (making a preemptive stun followed by two crits extremely effective). If you're constantly crossing your fingers hoping to get that big crit, you have less control over your own damage, making you a less effective addition to your premade. Unless you hit like Barry Bonds, you want to decrease the variability in your performance.

 

Unless you're focusing entirely on objectives in wzs (which only applies to Huttball), high sustained dps outside of the FP/Recklessness window is extremely important. Consistent crits keep enemy healers on their toes, especially from DPS who don't tunnel vision and know how to target swap appropriately.

Edited May 19, 2012 by Kllashaa