Could you finally nerf marauders?

[Ganjavus]

Please nerf Marauders to hell.

 

I want to be special again

[whatthefett]

Undying Rage post I' did a while ago.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=441715

[whatthefett]

When people cry about over powered classes it kills me, like the developers threw a bunch of things into a hat with no rhyme or reason. *I can't count how many times I hear a forum spew about how many 50s someone has but doesn't understand, fundamental class balance.

 

There are 3 basic types of dps class: front burt, back burst, and steady burst.

 

Front burst classes like a Carnage dps hit you hard and early- the strategy is to survive that onslaught because once he's out, he's dead.

 

Annihilation Marauder are dot melee and do damage over time, so they need to be around at the end. *They are back loaded. We have force powers just for this reason.

 

Both of these, however, need to be within melee range so guess what? *They get Force Jump. *That is why the have this power. *Every class has an assortment of powers relating to how they need to be played.

 

Likewise, an Anni Mara depends on a power like Undying Rage (see my post link above post) to sustain that back end dps. *It's how we are built and why they gave it to us. *And in my experience it works perfectly. *Sometimes I win and sometimes I lose- it all depends on the team and players opposing me. *Plenty of people know what to do about it because they understand how my class works.

 

Yet you get these forum gods who think all marauders work the same, on all servers, in all matches, and cry they can't beat it. *Then they want to scramble the whole class, unknowingly. *And when I try to explain, like my post link previous, they cry more.

 

Bioware has experience, metrics, real time stats, and more. *They put these powers in there as is for a reason. *Yes, class balance can get altered and need correction, but posters should apply a little more thought before raging about a warzone where they are just having bad experiences. *Try to consider how else to deal with it or what you can do.

 

There is not one class I would consider OP or want to change. *

[Niil]

You raise a valid point, based on the map a marauder can offer reasonable advantages to a group. I still feel as though it's a weak position that they can only really offer such utility on a map-dependent basis however, whereas no matter where you are, you'll always find a use for guard, pull, taunts, cc, and AoE.

 

This particular side tangent is very subjective. We could argue the merits of the utility of every AC and have wildly different opinions.

 

This is probably the most complained about ability within my own guild, and frankly, I concur that it depends on what Bioware is intending to do with the TTK. You hit the nail on the head - before six seconds was rarely enough to actually finish someone off. With the expertise scaling and damage changes, it's more than enough time if he's got his CC-breaker ready and a full resolve bar.

 

In regards to your suggestion, I believe if they were to maintain around this margin for TTK, I would agree on the reduction of incoming heals and actually raise the cooldown by 45 seconds, but I believe the duration should either be kept the same or raised to six seconds. 3 Seconds is a mere two global cooldowns, which essentially turns this ability from 'last-stand' to 'Mash execute button and try to force-cloak away.' To me, it seems to degrade the intent of the ability, or at least how I perceive the intent to be.

 

I'd be okay with the duration staying the same as long as the cooldown was increased dramatically. In the 3 minute range at least. Even at 3 minutes there is no other single cooldown that any class has that has the impact of this one ability.

 

This one's tricky, in my opinion Cloak of Pain is the only thing that enables me to function in a pug-setting, and gives me a sense of survivability in premadesvspremades where focus-fire is common. Changing the damage types reduced to elemental and internal would make the ability useless I believe, as very few classes actually use those types. (Powertechs and annihilation marauders, not sure about others off the top of my head.)

 

Otherwise, I agree, change the time it lasts up without an attack to three seconds so it -can- be mitigated if you're good. Eating two global cooldowns won't (shouldn't) kill the average person or even harm them that much. That said, I believe the overall duration should be lowered to 25 seconds or not touched at all.

 

I can understand that you feel it would be useless, however you still have Saber Ward and Force Camo and Undying Rage on top of Obfuscate. Internal/Elemental damage is done by many classes. Every dot in the game that I can think of is either elemental or internal. That's lethality for operatives/snipers, pyrotech for mercs/powertechs, madness sorcs, annihilation marauders, and vengeance jugs all have heavy internal or elemental damage. That's what, half the specs in the game heavily rely on those specific damage types. The skill would be in using it when it mattered.

[Serrowherrow]

I don't understand what all the fuss is about.

 

If you have equal/better gear, all you CDs, know your class inside out, know their class inside out, play flawlessly and get some lucky crits/procs, you have a 50/50 chance of beating the Mara who was bought from eBay an hour ago.

 

Stop being baddies!

 

If you're being beat by someone who's only been playing their class for an hour you may wish to consider reviewing your rotation.

[gattiman]

Please play mercenary then come back and delete your silly post.

 

Edit: and why do marauders always refer to a team needing to take them down and thinking that is balance? Your own argument is literally brimming with flaws if you can always chew through atleast 1 Guy that's not balance. Newsflash if a team needs to strategize to kill you they are losing the wz already. It breaks the game. And i agree marauders are so imbalanced they do require team attention which is game breaking. They are severely in need of a nerf glad you could spell that out for us.

 

When people cry about over powered classes it kills me, like the developers threw a bunch of things into a hat with no rhyme or reason. *I can't count how many times I hear a forum spew about how many 50s someone has but doesn't understand, fundamental class balance.

 

There are 3 basic types of dps class: front burt, back burst, and steady burst.

 

Front burst classes like a Carnage dps hit you hard and early- the strategy is to survive that onslaught because once he's out, he's dead.

 

Annihilation Marauder are dot melee and do damage over time, so they need to be around at the end. *They are back loaded. We have force powers just for this reason.

 

Both of these, however, need to be within melee range so guess what? *They get Force Jump. *That is why the have this power. *Every class has an assortment of powers relating to how they need to be played.

 

Likewise, an Anni Mara depends on a power like Undying Rage (see my post link above post) to sustain that back end dps. *It's how we are built and why they gave it to us. *And in my experience it works perfectly. *Sometimes I win and sometimes I lose- it all depends on the team and players opposing me. *Plenty of people know what to do about it because they understand how my class works.

 

Yet you get these forum gods who think all marauders work the same, on all servers, in all matches, and cry they can't beat it. *Then they want to scramble the whole class, unknowingly. *And when I try to explain, like my post link previous, they cry more.

 

Bioware has experience, metrics, real time stats, and more. *They put these powers in there as is for a reason. *Yes, class balance can get altered and need correction, but posters should apply a little more thought before raging about a warzone where they are just having bad experiences. *Try to consider how else to deal with it or what you can do.

 

There is not one class I would consider OP or want to change. *

Edited May 7, 2012 by gattiman

[whatthefett]

Please play mercenary then come back and delete your silly post.

 

Very constructive. And again useless to any positive result.

[Serrowherrow]

This particular side tangent is very subjective. We could argue the merits of the utility of every AC and have wildly different opinions.

 

 

True, it's probably best to leave the utility argument behind for now, as it'll just lead to us going in circles.

I'd be okay with the duration staying the same as long as the cooldown was increased dramatically. In the 3 minute range at least. Even at 3 minutes there is no other single cooldown that any class has that has the impact of this one ability.

 

Totally agreeable. I feel as though this ability should be more akin to Bloodthirst, a great cooldown that only shows itself a few times, but it has a very meaningful impact when executed properly.

 

That said, would this list be agreeable based on our last few posts?

 

- 50% Incoming healing.

- Cooldown increased to 3 minutes. (Give 10-20 seconds, perhaps reduce-able by talents? Not sure.)

- Duration remains the same.

- No change to damage output during this period.

 

 

I can understand that you feel it would be useless, however you still have Saber Ward and Force Camo and Undying Rage on top of Obfuscate. Internal/Elemental damage is done by many classes. Every dot in the game that I can think of is either elemental or internal. That's lethality for operatives/snipers, pyrotech for mercs/powertechs, madness sorcs, annihilation marauders, and vengeance jugs all have heavy internal or elemental damage. That's what, half the specs in the game heavily rely on those specific damage types. The skill would be in using it when it mattered.

 

I suppose it was a bit extreme to say it'd be useless, but I believe the change would warrant a small reduction on the CD of saber ward in that instance.

 

Think of it this way, you're a marauder, you storm into the fray in the middle node of alderaan civil war, pop your saber ward, CoP and go to town. Great time, damage reduction and deflects all around, sure you take some more damage than you used to, but at least you had saber ward!

 

Saber ward's on cooldown for the next three minutes though, from this point on you are a squishy melee-bound class that has survivability on par with gunslingers, and arguably less than sorcerers given the lack of a bubble. Obfuscate and force camo are nice, but they don't make up for the lack of actual damage reduction. Obfsucate only works on abilities that can miss or be parried, force or tech attacks automatically hit, filtering out an entire slew of classes.

 

And with the change to undying rage, after you popped that too your only remaining tricks are cloak of pain (which would be situational used only to combat dots, that represent a very small portion of overall damage in a pvp setting.) Obfsucate (As mentioned, only affects some abilities.) And force camo. (Which lets you either run, wait for a CD to end, or try to get the jump on the person you're fighting.)

 

To my eyes, this makes the Marauder operate more like a rogue, except he lacks real stealth, and doesn't have the front-ended burst. Survivability becomes that of an operative or scoundrel, with only a paltry few seconds of stealth and no other way to survive.

 

Tl;dr, I have trouble picturing how a medium-armor class without stealth is going to survive in this type of pvp environment. Sure if cooldowns are up, you can go on a wrecking spree like you do now, but otherwise you'd be relegated to praying that someone doesn't actually attack you, or run with a pocket healer/guard to perform effectively. Which, while not a problem for me, would negatively affect many people's pug experience.

[Serrowherrow]

Please play mercenary then come back and delete your silly post.

 

I play a mercenary and a marauder. There's a lot more to operating well as a merc in the 50s bracket than people give credit for sure, but it doesn't mean marauders are broken by comparing them to that experience.

[gattiman]

Very constructive. And again useless to any positive result.

 

You talk about plan ans design that every class has balanced abilities I posted a response that destroys your argument. If you don't know that (which you obviously don't) take my advice and play merc so you know your own error.

[Rayzen]

Damn Bioware, could please nerf us? Like, right now? Please, i can´t stand all the little whiners anymore. ****, i owned with my Marauder pre 1.2, i own now and i will own after a nerf.....i dont care, just make this crying stop! Edited May 7, 2012 by Rayzen

[gattiman]

I play a mercenary and a marauder. There's a lot more to operating well as a merc in the 50s bracket than people give credit for sure, but it doesn't mean marauders are broken by comparing them to that experience.

 

Implying there is some master plan of abilities and utilities and that marauders just have their fair share is laughable. Anyone that argues that when comparing them to a merc i just can't take seriously. The best mercs know their AC is broken and so do the best marauders just on opposite ends of the spectrum.

[EugeneYap]

Damn Bioware, could please nerf us? Like, right now? Please, i can´t stand all the little whiners anymore. ****, i owned with my Marauder pre 1.2, i own now and i will own after a nerf.....i dont care, just make this crying stop!

Or better yet lock this damn Thread and remove Mara/Sent from this game

Edited May 7, 2012 by EugeneYap

[gattiman]

Damn Bioware, could please nurf us? Like, right now? Please, i can´t stand all the little whiners anymore. ****, i owned with my Marauder pre 1.2, i own now and i will own after a nurf.....i dont care, just make this crying stop!

 

You needed a nerf pre 1.2 as well just too many baddies and pve'ers crying about a class that's harder to play. Now that people are learning the class its incredibly op. Then others copycat and its no longer hard so we have tons of op players mixed in with crapy fotm players. But i will save this post bc your nerf is coming.

[EugeneYap]

When people cry about over powered classes it kills me, like the developers threw a bunch of things into a hat with no rhyme or reason. *I can't count how many times I hear a forum spew about how many 50s someone has but doesn't understand, fundamental class balance.

 

There are 3 basic types of dps class: front burt, back burst, and steady burst.

 

Front burst classes like a Carnage dps hit you hard and early- the strategy is to survive that onslaught because once he's out, he's dead.

 

Annihilation Marauder are dot melee and do damage over time, so they need to be around at the end. *They are back loaded. We have force powers just for this reason.

 

Both of these, however, need to be within melee range so guess what? *They get Force Jump. *That is why the have this power. *Every class has an assortment of powers relating to how they need to be played.

 

Likewise, an Anni Mara depends on a power like Undying Rage (see my post link above post) to sustain that back end dps. *It's how we are built and why they gave it to us. *And in my experience it works perfectly. *Sometimes I win and sometimes I lose- it all depends on the team and players opposing me. *Plenty of people know what to do about it because they understand how my class works.

 

Yet you get these forum gods who think all marauders work the same, on all servers, in all matches, and cry they can't beat it. *Then they want to scramble the whole class, unknowingly. *And when I try to explain, like my post link previous, they cry more.

 

Bioware has experience, metrics, real time stats, and more. *They put these powers in there as is for a reason. *Yes, class balance can get altered and need correction, but posters should apply a little more thought before raging about a warzone where they are just having bad experiences. *Try to consider how else to deal with it or what you can do.

 

There is not one class I would consider OP or want to change. *

 

It's simple, there are baddies players who refuse to learn, choose to be losers, prefer QQ/Whine/Bit*h in the forums and will choose any topic or shift to any topic to QQ about that class instead of L2P.

And those people are normally the face rolling players. And why they are this? Because they are too freaking lazy, they soo lazy that even to think and learn is too much hard work for them. QQ/Whine/Bit*hing/cry is a much easier path to walk.

They won't stop till they can pwn with favor class by smashing 4 buttons.

Edited May 7, 2012 by EugeneYap

[gattiman]

It simple there baddies players who refuse to learn, choose to be losers and start QQ/Whine/Bit*h in the forums and will choose any topic or shift to any topic to QQ about that class.

And those people are normally the face rolling players, And why they are this? Because they are too freaking lazy, they soo lazy that even to think and learn is too much hard work for them. QQ/Whine/Bit*hing/cry is a much easier path to walk.

 

Anyone with any amount of high end wz's under his belt can tell mar /sent is op. No amount of l2p or other excuses change that. I've said this before I'm the highest dps merc on my server I know how to play they are op.

[Serrowherrow]

Anyone with any amount of high end wz's under his belt can tell mar /sent is op. No amount of l2p or other excuses change that. I've said this before I'm the highest dps merc on my server I know how to play they are op.

 

The last bit of your post would be the equivalent to me saying "I'm the highest dps operative on my server I know how to play, mercs are op."

[gattiman]

The last bit of your post would be the equivalent to me saying "I'm the highest dps operative on my server I know how to play, mercs are op."

 

No bc one is true and one is not. I'm saying I know how to play its just a plain truth marauders are op. Saying mercs are op will get you laughed off the forums. I'm just responding to the whole baddies being bad l2p troll marauder responses to their class needing a nerf.

Edited May 7, 2012 by gattiman

[EugeneYap]

No bc one is true and one is not. I'm saying I know how to play its just a plain truth marauders are op. Saying mercs are op will get you laughed off the forums. I'm just responding to the whole baddies being bad l2p troll marauder responses to their class needing a nerf.

 

Moar PvP whine?

 

Yep same ol' same ol'

 

You lost = the class that beat you requires nerfing

 

You won = your class is still not balanced but you can live with it

[Niil]

Totally agreeable. I feel as though this ability should be more akin to Bloodthirst, a great cooldown that only shows itself a few times, but it has a very meaningful impact when executed properly.

 

That said, would this list be agreeable based on our last few posts?

 

- 50% Incoming healing.

- Cooldown increased to 3 minutes. (Give 10-20 seconds, perhaps reduce-able by talents? Not sure.)

- Duration remains the same.

- No change to damage output during this period.

 

I think that would be an acceptable starting point. As far as reducing outgoing damage that people talk about, that seems silly to me. In particular I think the statement you made above that I bolded is exactly where I feel this ability should be. Right now it just happens way too often.

 

Tl;dr, I have trouble picturing how a medium-armor class without stealth is going to survive in this type of pvp environment. Sure if cooldowns are up, you can go on a wrecking spree like you do now, but otherwise you'd be relegated to praying that someone doesn't actually attack you, or run with a pocket healer/guard to perform effectively. Which, while not a problem for me, would negatively affect many people's pug experience.

 

The difference between medium armor and heavy armor is negligible. It adds up over the course of a warzone, but having heavy versus medium armor isn't going to sway a fight. It's defensive cooldowns that do that. And Cloak of Pain is superior to most damage reduction cooldowns in that it has dramatically higher uptime than other comparable cooldowns due to the increased duration and the much shorter cooldown. Stealth is great for getting an opener, but it does nothing to mitigate damage once exposed. And operatives have almost nothing in the way of an in combat gap closer where they're exposed but not dealing damage, whereas a marauder has numerous ways to counter that via force camo and charge. Something has to give here.

[gattiman]

Moar PvP whine?

 

Yep same ol' same ol'

 

You lost = the class that beat you requires nerfing

 

You won = your class is still not balanced but you can live with it

So you think mercs are balanced? I'm dying to here your opinion on that.

 

I don't lose often and I'm not a bad player. Just stating facts as I see them on Keller's void playing the best on the server. Most marauders and dents know they are op and will say so just not on these forums. If they weren't op why are they fotm? Honestly everyone sees it, the fact that you say I have an agenda is simply projection.

[defrostx]

If mara/sent are so good, then why, when I play PvP, the smuggler is always the better, especially in damage delt.

[whatthefett]

You talk about plan ans design that every class has balanced abilities I posted a response that destroys your argument. If you don't know that (which you obviously don't) take my advice and play merc so you know your own error.

 

No ones talking about Merc. That's another forum. I'll kill you later.

[whatthefett]

Please play mercenary then come back and delete your silly post.

 

Edit: and why do marauders always refer to a team needing to take them down and thinking that is balance? Your own argument is literally brimming with flaws if you can always chew through atleast 1 Guy that's not balance. Newsflash if a team needs to strategize to kill you they are losing the wz already. It breaks the game. And i agree marauders are so imbalanced they do require team attention which is game breaking. They are severely in need of a nerf glad you could spell that out for us.

 

You must also lose a lot. Warzones are a team effort- not 1v1. Just like any dps can't burn a healer 1v1 worth their salt- its a stalemate.

 

I loathe when people say L2P because it isn't constructive and accomplishes nothing, but it's posts like this that almost make me want to say it.

 

So let me get this straight. When you see UR and you know the player is invincible, you do what? Keep swinging? Listen it's pretty simple. If you see UR you make a basic pvp decision: can I hold out 5 seconds and get this sun of a gun, or will he get me? Guess what? You can walk away and add value to your team effort! And if it's an Anni Mara you better apologize before walking away because the hurt bucket is coming. But I doubt you would even know if it was.

 

Ever hear of Guard? It's a tank spell put generally on healers that takes 40% of their damage and transfers it back to the tank. I bet you sit there all day and hit a healer thinking, "Oh, what a nice bubble!", throwing away 40% of your damage to the best damage mitigator in the game.

 

I guess that means nothing to you because that is intra-class mechanics and you can't even deal with UR on one class, but I am not done with you yet. I am going to tell you what to do.

 

UR can be stunned, rooted, and mezzed! If you have a 5 second stun guess what? You just nullified it! Jeezus.

 

Woof.

Edited May 7, 2012 by whatthefett

[gattiman]

If mara/sent are so good, then why, when I play PvP, the smuggler is always the better, especially in damage delt.

 

Damage dealt is a misleading metric. As Pyro i can post insane dps and not kill anything. I really don't know what to say i haven't seen a smuggler get over 400k dps in a long time. I've seen sents and marauders routinely get over that after 1.2 before 1.2 i saw some get over 600k.

 

I'm sure if a smuggler was playing a bunch of new players he could really wrap up but they aren't a hard class to handle unless your CC break is on cooldown. With marauders there is honestly very little you can do 1v1. Unless you have help its game over and that isn't balanced.