AP vs Pyro Parses

[droidfood]

So i've been messing around with full AP vs full Pyro spec now me ive been an avid Pyro player for a long time but my mind is starting to change. These parses are done on a training dummy with full rakata/blackhole, i do understand they are not accurate depictions of boss fights.

 

Full 31 point AP with Sorc buff and BH buff 112 aim stim

1400 dps

Full 31 point Pyro sorc buff BH buff 112 aim stim

1500 dps give or take

 

Looking at the graphs in Torparse.com AP sustained damage the graph is almost exactly a straight line as far as spikes go. Pyro in the other hand the graph spikes up and down constantly.

My question for you guys is do you think that the sustained damage in AP would eventually out do the huge spike damage of Pyro in a boss fight? what do you think?

Edited May 2, 2012 by droidfood

[exphryl]

Looking at the graphs in Torparse.com AP sustained damage the graph is almost exactly a straight line as far as spikes go. Pyro in the other hand the graph spikes up and down constantly.

My question for you guys is do you think that the sustained damage in AP would eventually out do the huge spike damage of Pyro in a boss fight? what do you think?

 

Overall damage is still overall damage regardless of spikes.

 

Plus, most of the boss fights, at least in EC, have movement added to them where AP Falters a bit due to having to be stationary with FT. I think if there was just a Patchwerk type fight AP may pull ahead of Pyro, but there isn't currently in this game. The closet you get is the one on ones in EV but that's only for 140K worth of HP you have to eat through.

Edited May 2, 2012 by exphryl

[TheOpf]

So i've been messing around with full AP vs full Pyro spec now me ive been an avid Pyro player for a long time but my mind is starting to change. These parses are done on a training dummy with full rakata/blackhole, i do understand they are not accurate depictions of boss fights.

 

Full 31 point AP with Sorc buff and BH buff 112 aim stim

1400 dps

Full 31 point Pyro sorc buff BH buff 112 aim stim

1500 dps give or take

 

Looking at the graphs in Torparse.com AP sustained damage the graph is almost exactly a straight line as far as spikes go. Pyro in the other hand the graph spikes up and down constantly.

My question for you guys is do you think that the sustained damage in AP would eventually out do the huge spike damage of Pyro in a boss fight? what do you think?

 

No, because AP is approximately 5 percent dps worse due to the scaling of CGC over HEGC. Over a 5 minute fight you will see Pyro do 5 percent more damage regardless of whether they do it spike damage or flat damage. You could probably bump your AP a little better with a tighter rotation or playing it more often. However optimally played Pyro will end up better.

 

What rotation were you using? Were you using the Max Damage AP build on the guide?

 

Personally I don't play Pyro as well and my pyro is about 2 percent worse.

[TheOpf]

Overall damage is still overall damage regardless of spikes.

 

Plus, most of the boss fights, at least in EC, have movement added to them where AP Falters a bit due to having to be stationary with FT. I think if there was just a Patchwerk type fight AP may pull ahead of Pyro, but there isn't currently in this game. The closet you get is the one on ones in EV but that's only for 140K worth of HP you have to eat through.

 

We only have 3 seconds of stationary demands. There isn't a single fight where you don't have 3 seconds of time to stand still.

[exphryl]

We only have 3 seconds of stationary demands. There isn't a single fight where you don't have 3 seconds of time to stand still.

 

No, but there are fights where having to move (ground effects etc) can make you stop your cast early which was what I was saying.

Edited May 2, 2012 by exphryl

[TheOpf]

No, but there are fights where having to move (ground effects etc) can make you stop your cast early which was what I was saying.

 

Good point! So when are you going to write the Pyro Guide ;p?

[dardack]

No, but there are fights where having to move (ground effects etc) can make you stop your cast early which was what I was saying.

 

It's why you time it. At least in EC you know when that stuff is coming or close enough, even on the first fight the red circles if you wait for one move start casting when second hits you your almost all the way through the 3 secs so you can wait and move esp with HO.

 

Also the Full AP with RS can make up for having to move to range and back to melee.

 

But like theorf said, CGC is so much better then HEGC that it doesn't matter.

[Arzoo]

Are you gearing the AP spec right? You want 0 accuracy when spec'd AP.

[BobaFaceroll]

Are you gearing the AP spec right? You want 0 accuracy when spec'd AP.

 

Even if you're regularly using Rail Shot?

[thrakkemarn]

@OP if you are going to post DPS numbers please post the actual parse with it. How long were your DPS tests? What rotation, what gear, what cooldowns etc? Just stating "I did ~1500 DPS" doesn't provide enough information.

 

I would LOVE LOVE LOVE for AP to be as much DPS as Pyro in PvE but I cannot match the DPS I do as a Pyro. If you are exceeding Pyro then please tell us how?

 

I suppose you could strip out all accuracy as AP if your used a no rail shot build of some sort, which I have seen floating around, although afaik those are PvP builds.

 

In every parse I have done Pyro has far outdone AP. I say this not to argue "Pyro is better than AP" but to ask "how can I make AP as good as or better than Pyro"?

[TheOpf]

@OP if you are going to post DPS numbers please post the actual parse with it. How long were your DPS tests? What rotation, what gear, what cooldowns etc? Just stating "I did ~1500 DPS" doesn't provide enough information.

 

I would LOVE LOVE LOVE for AP to be as much DPS as Pyro in PvE but I cannot match the DPS I do as a Pyro. If you are exceeding Pyro then please tell us how?

 

I suppose you could strip out all accuracy as AP if your used a no rail shot build of some sort, which I have seen floating around, although afaik those are PvP builds.

 

In every parse I have done Pyro has far outdone AP. I say this not to argue "Pyro is better than AP" but to ask "how can I make AP as good as or better than Pyro"?

 

I stated that Pyro does 5 percent more dps than AP. I cannot do more damage as Pyro than AP, because I tend to overheat too often at Pyro. The Norse build is a PVP build that can be used in pve, but it's about 10-11 percent behind Pyro.

 

Even then you don't need accuracy. Why waste the mods for an attack we can only use every 15 seconds, and is a guaranteed Crit besides, running multiple 1000 sim tests comes out with 0 accuracy the miss rate on rail shots is less than 2 percent on Rail Shot Crits.

Edited May 3, 2012 by TheOpf

[TheOpf]

Are you gearing the AP spec right? You want 0 accuracy when spec'd AP.

 

Pyro doesnt' really need accuracy either. And in order to get 0 accuracy it would take you forever to get the right gear and mods. All Rakata gear is stacked with accuracy. You have to get the daily gear and unmod it.

 

Even if you're regularly using Rail Shot?

 

No need every 15 seconds is all you need it.

[thrakkemarn]

Wait really, Pyro doesn't need accuracy? Raid bosses have 10% dodge.

 

http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/combatlog/b71af3c7-8f8c-4322-9819-51d56df5b57e/player/4#d=0,b=1

 

In that parse I am at 110% Accuracy. As you can see I have ~10% misses on my rapid shots. At 0 accuracy you will miss 10% of your Rail Shots. Rail shot makes up over 20% of my DPS. Missing a Rail Shot is a horrible blow to your DPS. In fact, anytime I try to reduce accuracy in favor of something else (say, surge) in the Powertech Simulator my DPS goes down.

 

I would actually appreciate it if someone would do the math and explain how much accuracy is actually worth, but from all I can tell having 110% accuracy is very important for Pyro. Am I wrong on this?

[TheOpf]

Wait really, Pyro doesn't need accuracy? Raid bosses have 10% dodge.

 

http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/combatlog/b71af3c7-8f8c-4322-9819-51d56df5b57e/player/4#d=0,b=1

 

In that parse I am at 110% Accuracy. As you can see I have ~10% misses on my rapid shots. At 0 accuracy you will miss 10% of your Rail Shots. Rail shot makes up over 20% of my DPS. Missing a Rail Shot is a horrible blow to your DPS. In fact, anytime I try to reduce accuracy in favor of something else (say, surge) in the Powertech Simulator my DPS goes down.

 

I would actually appreciate it if someone would do the math and explain how much accuracy is actually worth, but from all I can tell having 110% accuracy is very important for Pyro. Am I wrong on this?

 

I am using Kray's spreadsheet parser. In Rakata BIS gear - 8/2/31 pyro dps - 1516.50

 

With Accuracy producing a total of .53 per point and being only better than Surge. BTW, you should never dump accuracy for surge. We already have 30 percent surge bonus. Aim and Power will always be top.

 

With 0 in accuracy your total dps is 1472.55 so a net loss of 30 dps which is less than 3 percent. Anyways, this doesn't mean Accuracy is unimportant . Rapid shot misses actually accounted for the largest loss of dps. Getting a 0 in Accuracy is next to impossible though. And the 0 in accuracy is without putting the bonus in everything else that you would gain the benefit from.

 

So if it's only a 30 dps loss with all stats being the same and having no accuracy. I think the power/aim/crit you gain from losing accuracy would make up the difference.

[exphryl]

I am using Kray's spreadsheet parser. In Rakata BIS gear - 8/2/31 pyro dps - 1516.50

.

 

I said this before, but I think the issue with Sims is going to start to show through as actual Parses become more widely available.

[TheOpf]

I said this before, but I think the issue with Sims is going to start to show through as actual Parses become more widely available.

 

I have already stated the spreadsheet has some issues. It used the wrong priority, but almost all of the information that it uses to calculate possible dps has been in the game since launch. 1500 isn't hard to get on Pyro. Heck, I know some really geared guys pushing 1700 on a parser. They dropped their accuracy down to about 100, and buffed up their aim and power.

 

The truth is that we have only two attacks that benefit from Accuracy, Rail and Rapid Shots. While accuracy is more important for Pyro than AP, it's still one of the least important abilities.Granted your dependence on Accuracy really depends on your gear level.