Premades are responsible for failed MMOs

[DarthNiktu]

How about tanks can only guard themselves? balance around take less dmg/do less dmg....take more dmg/do more dmg

 

Maybe Healers' Healing should come directly from their own HP...let them have 31 pt skills that give them +500 endurance or 20k HP, but every time that they Heal it comes directly from their pool and they only can heal others, only dmg they do replenishes their own HP. (just a thought)

.

 

I also think that whining DPS should hit them self in the face with a sabre every second attack. Sounds fair.

[truchaos]

How often when someone posts video of a cheat, is the cheat's name in red? Why aren't people on the same side reporting the cheating player......maybe it's because it's their boy?

Or, perhaps, it is because people tend to pay far more attention to the behaviour of the enemy team over that of their own side? You are more likely to note an enemy player that is un-killable, un-stunable, or sprinting around far faster than they should than you are to notice a player on your own team exhibiting those very same qualities. It is about attention focus and perspective- and, for the record, I will report any and every player I come across that is cheating regardless of what side of the warzone they are playing on.

 

A cheater is a cheater and has no place in the game period, however- if you do not report the behaviour then you are only assisting in the problem. Players reporting exploits and cheats are a key factor in CS's fight to overcome them. Be proactive: I have personally reported players I suspected of cheating and in-game exploits. Have you reported these players at all? If not it is like watching your house burn and not calling the fire department... and then blaming the firemen for 'letting' your house burn down.

 

 

While maybe not all premades are cheats, they do "optimize" FOTM builds and exploit temporary advantages in builds til nerfs come out......all of which I find to be extremely poor sportsmanship......I guess "you people" would just classify it a opportunism. But it's less about your character and the way you play, and more about which class or class combos are naturally harder to handle that would give you an unfair advantage over others who won't reroll.

Every game is going to have its min-max'ers and its powerplayers- those who will parse and tweak and use every ingame 'feature' they can to get a leg up on their fellows. This is true in mmo's/rpg's/fps'.... it also is true in real life. I personally find it poor sportsmanship as well but understand that it is part of human nature that you make the choice to either shrug off or let get under your skin.

[TheEvilEeyore]

"Well, bye!" I quit, Premades 1-Me 0

 

 

 

Is there no way to design a game where players can play with each other w/o OP benefits from the synergy between classes?

 

Guarding healers, chain stun locks, friendly pulling, group speed burst,tandem sleep darts,..etc,etc....exploited skills.

 

Is it that hard to see how PvE skills will be abused in PvP?

 

Maybe i should just play FPS's...head shot's kill..EVERYONE..but this Jug+healer taking on 4 dps...is IMO a completely broken and abused model.

 

Excuse me, but aren't more people playing Solo (solo WZ ques) than Group ques(premade)?

 

So PVP devs design PvP where group play trumps all? Seems Bass Ackwards.

 

 

How about tanks can only guard themselves? balance around take less dmg/do less dmg....take more dmg/do more dmg

 

Maybe Healers' Healing should come directly from their own HP...let them have 31 pt skills that give them +500 endurance or 20k HP, but every time that they Heal it comes directly from their pool and they only can heal others, only dmg they do replenishes their own HP. (just a thought)

 

In my view, PvP is broken if 8 random ACs =/= 8 other random ACs

 

I don't exactly know why people say that there shouldn't' be 1 vs 1 balance without synergies, besides their own bias...But I've got too little time to waste on FOTM builds and tag teaming stunlocks.

 

see yall around..for maybe 46 more days. but I don't want to see another 2Jug/2OP healers with 4 assassins or marauders picking up the slack....from the boards, I can see I am not alone. From the ques and quits, i can see that I am not alone.

 

So go ahead and make your snide comments, how everyone from 14 to 60 y/o should be playing in premades to have "fun", or whatever ridiculous justification you have concocted to justify broken. I don't care anymore, i'm out.

 

So according to you. the only mechanics in game should be dps and heal mechanics.. so its bascially a race.. who can do more damage than healing.. sorry but your thought proccess is flawed.

 

I think i missed your healer suggestion the first time i read your post..... really...... is this seriously the answer to you? so in your mind a healer just gets to sit there and wait for a dps to kill them.

HEY .. HEY GUYS I HAVE 20K hp.. but i can't heal my friend unless i die for them. LETS CALL THIS CLASS JESUS!

Edited May 2, 2012 by TheEvilEeyore

[TheEvilEeyore]

what about older games like gauntlet? Warrior, wizard, Elf, and Valkyrie.....red,blue, green, yellow

 

did it matter really how many Wars you had, or your team's composition? Nope, pick a toon, and you get a color..play and have fun....if you suck with a Warrior, you'd suck with an Elf.

 

a premade vs PUG in the Gauntlet scenario has exactly what advantage in PvP or 4 vs 4? They communicate and maybe all hit the Elf first? Fine....but the WAR isn't getting shielded by the wizard and taking all the DPS of the PUG group....you catch my drift?

 

this is the worst analogy you could possibly use. really your comparing split screen hack and slash vs AI to an MMO? you do know what MMO stands for correct?

 

I originally had a short post on this but i feel that artards need somethings straightened out here. The reason all of you QQ'ers are getting rofl stomped by a pre-made group is pretty much 2 things.

 

(1) they are working as a team. They all dps the same person at the same time.

(2) Using CC properly. when they CC someone they don't hit him immediately after and break the cc.

(3) they have tanks that know how to guard swap and protect healers. THIS is probably the biggest one. a team that knows how to keep their healer alive while doing damage. ESPECIALLY after 1.2 is going to win 99 times out of 100.

(4) They come in with a game plan. examples: novare coast: hit south with 6, send 2 west? or rush east instead.

huttball: ranged dps runs high to let guardian leap or sage pull. I think we get this point.

(5) they are probably better geared than you due to the fact that they care enough to form pre-mades.

 

QQing that players can help each other is a stupid argument. The OP, that i think is you, stated that he should go back to playing FPS's. Apparently you don't realize how important your team is in an FPS either. i think what you need to say is "i should play tic tac toe".

 

You are QQing because other people know how to use their class better than you know how to use yours. PVP has always been about control. If you know how to control the situations and know the right reactions to make then you win.

[DarthSabreth]

Meh ive done both pre mades and solo WZ's and with out a doubt nothing will stop solo players in their tracks more is going up against pre made after pre made. in certain wz's you will be lucky to get 1 medal which will give you greatly reduced rewards thanks to BW and also creates a much greater gear gap. pre made's should either be for ranked wz's or alow players to get some type of reward if their up against qued groups.

 

dont get me wrong, everyone has a right to their own play style, but in a gear driven game that has guilds pretty much preventing players from getting the rewards to get their gear at a pace that they can get it, then there may be a design flaw afoot.

 

also i have seen in some instances where 2 groups of 4 will que at the same time and get lucky and are on the same team. also if they are on opposing teams win trading as well as one team droping out at the same time creates an unballanced WZ. and since they no longer shut down we are greatly out of luck.

[Dorpire]

think the most impt thing op said was there are more solo ppl that que up for pvp than premade grps....bw will have to cater to the solo grp or lose yet more subs.... money > than happy premades.

[Xsorus]

lol, i just went through your post history

 

You really like to jump in on anti-premade chat....any specific reason? You support Premades, tell others L2P to if they can't take out premade groups all the while talking about how you can kill 3 healers with your tank.

 

Yeah, thanks for your input.

 

Because generally people who make anti premade posts are badies who suck at the game.

 

and 3 Healers against me would result in a stalemate because, the second one starts not healing, is the second I kill the other 2 healers.

[Ravashakk]

For those of you like me that don't want to read 16 pages of mostly BS, allow me to summarize...

 

"WAH! More coordinated ppl beat my uncoordinated team."

 

I've seen coordinated pugs beat uncoordinated premades. It doesn't translate 100% of the time to a win, because in the end it is about the ppl on said premade that determine how powerful they are. If you put 8 great players that know teamwork together...regardless of how they queued, they will do well. It is just how things work, ppl like to play with like-minded ppl, so good players usually queue with other good players. End of story.

[Xsorus]

Lets design the game entirely behind one player named Ghamser who sucks at video games..

 

"QQ, PvP systems that result in multiple players result in Synergy, Boo Hoo"

 

Seriously, the second you add DPS, Heals, and a Snare into at MMO, you have Synergy.

[Kontraz]

I know the argument "well, those in premades are just better" is overused, but think of it this way: You are going into a warzone where you are potentially going against premades and you have no idea who your teammates are. You don't know what class, skill, or gear your teammates are going to wear. And there is a nifty option within the game mechanics that allows you to choose 3 of your teammates, meaning you automatically know who HALF of your team is.

 

Are you going to just choose 3 random people who are sitting on the fleet? probably not. You are going to either choose people you are friends with (for the social aspect) or you are going to choose people that you KNOW are good players and aren't going to continually make poor decisions while in the warzone.

 

So no, I'm not implying that people who use premades are better than a random player BECAUSE they are a good player, its in fact the opposite. Terrible players usually dont get invited to premades (and if they do, its probably a sloppy premade anyway, which a group of randoms can beat just as easily).

 

As far s the suggestion to throw out the option for premades? I think that's a terrible idea. Not because I am elitist and enjoy winning (which who doesn't?) but I like being able to play with people that are competent. It's extremely annoying getting grouped with a bunch of idiots that do not (or choose not to) understand the basic concepts of the various warzones. My blood pressure skyrockets whenever we are winning by a large variance, then the random people we're grouped with decide to go chase butterflies and we end up losing.

 

If my ONLY option was to queu solo and pray that at least 2/3 of my team is halfway decent, I probably would never pvp. Thank God bioware lets me group with my friends who enjoy the game, as well as with people I've met in game that understand the basics at a minimal level.

 

For those who think this is unfair, why not play a few wzs and take note of who tends to be pretty good. shoot them some messages and see if they want to group up and eventually - like magic - even you could have your very own premade going!

 

if nobody on your server wants to group with you, it just means you are either terribad, a whiny QQer, or an a**, and then you have a whole new set of problems.

[Astarica]

If after every WZ you take the top 4 medal getters and put them on a team, that's probably a team that's at least better than the average. It's almost certainly going to be better than a team form by the other 4 guys you didn't pick. Is that a premade? No, but it's certainly strong and depending on who you get, you can potentially have a very strong team formed this way.

 

Actually in a lot of premades, you've one guy doing most of the work and rest riding his coattails. Instead of one guy getting 18 medals and topping the chart in every category, you instead get a premade of 4 where each guy has 14 medals and a more even distribution of numbers. But if the top guy doesn't mind other guys coming along for the ride who are you to argue? In fact often it'd be worse if the best player in a premade simply queue solo because there's a very good chance the other guys in his premades are actually pretty bad, which means the PUGs this guy gets into is likely to be stronger than his premade.

[Kontraz]

Lets design the game entirely behind one player named Ghamser who sucks at video games..

 

"QQ, PvP systems that result in multiple players result in Synergy, Boo Hoo"

 

Seriously, the second you add DPS, Heals, and a Snare into at MMO, you have Synergy.

 

the second you add two classes - ANY two - you have synergy.

 

heals + dps = kill before either is killed

heals + tank = survive and slowly kill the enemy

tank + dps = kill before guard breaks

 

hell, take it a step beyond that and any two PEOPLE can create synergy by simply focusing on the same target or delaying an enemy while one caps a point.

 

earlier the OP made a long post about how the classic trilogy centered around 1 v 1 battles and thats what feels epic. cool. then go /duel somewhere. warzones would not be nearly as fun if everytime you qeued you wound up in a boxing ring against one other person.

[Motav]

Even if queues were solo ONLY people would chill in voice and queue all at once. It's not our fault you don't have friends! God forbid we all know how to play and we play together! I play with people I met on this game, why can't you?

[Astarica]

Even if queues were solo ONLY people would chill in voice and queue all at once. It's not our fault you don't have friends! God forbid we all know how to play and we play together! I play with people I met on this game, why can't you?

 

Actually in that case you're just as likely to queue against your own faction (given the lack of Reps, same faction games are common), though I've seen guys who simply give up if their friends are on the other side so their friends can win.

[Bloberts]

Awesome. I could use one less mute headless chicken in my WZ's.

[Draflorin]

yeah good one mate - people get together and work out exploits between classes....

 

others would describe it as ...

 

• Optimising synergistic skill sets.
  
• Developing strategy.
  
• Effective communication using Ventrillo or team-speak.
  
• Learning each others play styles.
  
• Having the benefit of the same team mates who are all on the same page and not having to teach your strat to new people in the 60 second lead up to your match.
  
• Having all 8 players do Their job and not running off doing random things.
  

 

Yup definitely game breaking and unfair - except that... you only have to make 8 friends to be able to do this yourself - Skype if free if you want poor-mans VOIP, the rest is dependant on whatever intelligence the good lord has gifted you with and I have made my own assumption on that from your original post.

 

You might even find that Team work produces even more game time satisfaction than getting a random win with a pug.

 

The playing field IS level - if you choose to hobble yourself and continue with pugs its on you mate...

[Ghamsar]

the second you add two classes - ANY two - you have synergy.

 

heals + dps = kill before either is killed

heals + tank = survive and slowly kill the enemy

tank + dps = kill before guard breaks

 

Think about what you just put down

 

Tank/Sins and other DPSTanks are what exactly? They are manipulated exploits that the premades are specifically running to escalate imbalance.

 

So 2 players Heals+DPS/Tank become 2.5 or 3 players....a premade group running 2 Jugs in DPS gear with 4 marauders and 2 Operheals become like 12 players versus 8 due to the imbalances exploited.

 

That composition of 8 players is not = to a composition of 8 random classes (say 8 snipers)...showing that there is an imbalance within classes, synergies exploited, and premades purposefully do this which causes the problems of people getting fed up and quitting.

 

As another poster said " it's human nature" to min/max....maybe so. I guess MMOs are relegated to the lowest common denominator....is that the trash exploiters or is the the trash development with no foresight into how build will be exploited?

 

See the forums...am I the only one crying foul over certain builds? Why are we all picking on certain ACs?

[Ghamsar]

The playing field IS level - if you choose to hobble yourself and continue with pugs its on you mate...

 

yeah, so you are saying that because I won't re-roll and sell my soul to exploit builds and team up with like minded min/maxers...it's on me....okay

 

Women, there is no glass ceiling because you can have gender reassignment surgery

Minorities, there is no racism, because you can have your skin bleached

 

what a wonderful world

 

No expectation that the Makers of the game, that I am Paying for, should produce something without exploits or hacks....nah..that's too much to ask.

Edited May 2, 2012 by Ghamsar

[Kontraz]

Think about what you just put down

 

Tank/Sins and other DPSTanks are what exactly? They are manipulated exploits that the premades are specifically running to escalate imbalance.

 

So 2 players Heals+DPS/Tank become 2.5 or 3 players....a premade group running 2 Jugs in DPS gear with 4 marauders and 2 Operheals become like 12 players versus 8 due to the imbalances exploited.

 

That composition of 8 players is not = to a composition of 8 random classes (say 8 snipers)...showing that there is an imbalance within classes, synergies exploited, and premades purposefully do this which causes the problems of people getting fed up and quitting.

 

As another poster said " it's human nature" to min/max....maybe so. I guess MMOs are relegated to the lowest common denominator....is that the trash exploiters or is the the trash development with no foresight into how build will be exploited?

 

See the forums...am I the only one crying foul over certain builds? Why are we all picking on certain ACs?

 

you are 100% correct. two mules working together never in the real world are able to pull more weight in total than two mules would separately. Oh. wait. yes they do.

 

tell ya what? why not rule a tank assassin since you claim they are such a godsend, and maybe one of the other 7 people in your group is a healer so you could become this magical 2.5 player total that makes you lose all of your warzones. Then, just like what happens to most classes that are FOTM, you will again be nerfed.

 

if that fails, lets try to make warzones more like you suggest: healing a tank is too synergetic, so we need to eliminate tanks. Healers also give edge to dps, because we dont want the other team communicating so they can burn down the healer, so lets eliminate healers as well. Now we have stealth dps which isn't fair because my commando can't stealth and that gives an unfair advantage, so lets take out stealth. Oh, but Jedi dont have guns, so lets just make it all jedi with no stealth, no heals, and no tanks. While we're at it, lets just keep it to one saber and everyone gets the same armor. Those who play more shouldn't be at an advantage.

 

In fact, lets make it better and have all players be jedi with the same skills, abilities, and armor. The only difference is light saber color. Blue for republic and Red for empire. And make sure to add a system that detects any sort of teamspeak going on, so IF you and your friends manage to get in the same group together (eliminate premades, of course) you can't communicate and the system will kick both of you for using 3rd party software.

 

Also, here's a box of tissues. Not for QQing, but because you have no friends to play with....

 

... if you know what I mean.

[Xsorus]

Think about what you just put down

 

Tank/Sins and other DPSTanks are what exactly? They are manipulated exploits that the premades are specifically running to escalate imbalance.

 

So 2 players Heals+DPS/Tank become 2.5 or 3 players....a premade group running 2 Jugs in DPS gear with 4 marauders and 2 Operheals become like 12 players versus 8 due to the imbalances exploited.

 

That composition of 8 players is not = to a composition of 8 random classes (say 8 snipers)...showing that there is an imbalance within classes, synergies exploited, and premades purposefully do this which causes the problems of people getting fed up and quitting.

 

As another poster said " it's human nature" to min/max....maybe so. I guess MMOs are relegated to the lowest common denominator....is that the trash exploiters or is the the trash development with no foresight into how build will be exploited?

 

See the forums...am I the only one crying foul over certain builds? Why are we all picking on certain ACs?

 

You seem to think that having a Tanksin + heal or Juggy tank with DPS gear + Heals means a whole lot in this game.

 

2 Marauders or two Pyro PT's would kill both of those setups...

 

As for why people run Tanksins or Juggies, It really has zero to do with guarding a Healer, and entirely to do with one Match and One match alone, Huttball.

 

Those 2 classes are the best ball runners in the game..

[dirtyboxer]

Sounds like your complaining about teamwork and strategy, and the the claasses compliment each other. Everyone is given an 8 or 4 man team with the same classes to choose from. How you make use of that is up to you.

[Ghamsar]

Everyone is given an 8 or 4 man team with the same classes to choose from. How you make use of that is up to you.

 

nope, not that at all. I can't choose what I want to play each match

[iiell]

People want to play with other people in an MMO? Imagine that!

[Draflorin]

yeah, so you are saying that because I won't re-roll and sell my soul to exploit builds and team up with like minded min/maxers...it's on me....okay

 

Women, there is no glass ceiling because you can have gender reassignment surgery

Minorities, there is no racism, because you can have your skin bleached

 

what a wonderful world

 

so.... your saying that you don't want to adapt... did you even read and comprehend the other stuff in my post?

 

organising, optimising, developing strategy, effectively communicating, learning and adapting are not exploits.

 

Actually reading your skill development tree and working out how to get the best from your class is not exploitive either.

 

Having a little think to yourself "hmmmm how can I work better with other classes" is not exploitive - its the core of how team based games are supposed to work!

 

Many many posters in this thread have told you how to counter an opposing team that is intelligent - organised - optimised and highly motorvated to win.

 

You are choosing to see these type of opponents as cheaters, blaming them and Bioware for allowing such horrendous exploits.

 

Explain how evaluating your skill tree and making a few changes to compensate for current conditions = selling your soul?

 

You cant have it both ways if you want to muddle along with your blinkers on in mediocrity or less than... and refuse to adapt then you will be getting exactly what you ARE getting and that is... ROLLED again and again.

[Kontraz]

nope, not that at all. I can't choose what I want to play each match

 

yes you can. find 3 others that are the class or spec you want to team with and join up with them.

 

this is probably my last response in this thread. At this point you are either trolling hard or really just too stubborn to try to play the game as intended. If you don't like the idea of teamwork, then **** and play a single player game. Like you mentioned in your original post, maybe FPS's suit you better, but teams tend to do better in those as well. I'd recommend chess but you have to "exploit" your pieces with strategy that involves different types of pieces - you can't win with just your pawns. Maybe checkers? is that simplified enough for you?