War Hero Gear vs Campaign Gear

[Doomsdaycomes]

It never fails to amaze me how people will defend an imbalanced system, when the evidence is right in their face. Over and over it's been pointed out that PvP gear can be viable in most PvE content. Of course it's not the best, but it is viable. PvE gear in PvP content is not viable. It doesn't matter which can be obtianed faster or not (as that -could- be changed), the simple fact is one is viable in both areas, and one is not. This is -not- balanced.

 

Then again, those who are being favored by the system will generally protect it, in order to not lose their disadvantage.

[iiell]

I care because our gear doesn't have the same amount of stats on it. I'm complaining because its not equal. It's not the same. I'm already a battlemaster I have the gear already I don't care about that crappy recruit gear. You need 60 Valor to have the best PvE gear anyways.

 

ROFL! Your gear has better PVE stats on it.

 

You're obviously confused about BioWare's stat allocation and itemization.

[iiell]

It never fails to amaze me how people will defend an imbalanced system, when the evidence is right in their face. Over and over it's been pointed out that PvP gear can be viable in most PvE content. Of course it's not the best, but it is viable. PvE gear in PvP content is not viable. It doesn't matter which can be obtianed faster or not (as that -could- be changed), the simple fact is one is viable in both areas, and one is not. This is -not- balanced.

 

Then again, those who are being favored by the system will generally protect it, in order to not lose their disadvantage.

 

Are you trying to say that if you had WH gear and you are doing PVE, you would pass on Campaign gear, because your WH gear "can be viable in most PVE content"? I think not! The only reason you think the system is imbalanced is because you want to "own" people in PVP, wearing your PVE gear. Face the facts bro!

Edited May 2, 2012 by iiell

[ElintSlave]

Are you trying to say that if you had WH gear and you are doing PVE, you would pass on Campaign gear, because your WH gear "can be viable in most PVE content"? I think not! The only reason you think the system is imbalanced is because you want to "own" people in PVP, wearing your PVE gear. Face the facts bro!

 

War Hero Gear is viable in all content. I wouldn't pass just because I like the way the Campaign gear looks. However I wouldn't roll on a slot if the rest of my guild needed the gear. I'm an Assassin I own people already. I just think its stupid how the different gears don't have the equivalent stat amount.

[looneybinjim]

I don't want to PvP in PvE gear. I want the extra stats that PvP gear gets made up in PvE stats for PvE. PvE gear as it is now is barely a DPS increase and only has endurance going for it which no one really cares about. What do you mean PvE scales faster than PvP? That doesn't make any sense. According to your logic then PvP gear shouldn't be able to go into operations and down stuff. The Expertise stat should do a -% damage, -% healing, and -% mitigation.

 

you dont want to be able to pvp in pve gear? i could have understood your complaint if this was the case (because you argued so much that pvp'ers can do ok in pve content) but as it is, all your asking for is more stats, so you can do pve easier. how easy do you want it? your guild has already cleared all content from what your sig says. your just whining for the sake of it.

 

in a pure pve environment expertise is worth nothing, zero, nada. therefore take that expertise stat out of the info you correlated, and add it all up again, and youll have your answer. pve gear is already a good deal better for doing pve, than pvp gear is. quit moaning.

[ElintSlave]

you dont want to be able to pvp in pve gear? i could have understood your complaint if this was the case (because you argued so much that pvp'ers can do ok in pve content) but as it is, all your asking for is more stats, so you can do pve easier. how easy do you want it? your guild has already cleared all content from what your sig says. your just whining for the sake of it.

 

in a pure pve environment expertise is worth nothing, zero, nada. therefore take that expertise stat out of the info you correlated, and add it all up again, and youll have your answer. pve gear is already a good deal better for doing pve, than pvp gear is. quit moaning.

 

I dunno.. maybe to gear up for Nightmare mode? I think it would be really stupid if you could use War Hero gear for even Nightmare mode. Maybe I'm the only one that thinks it though. Whatever..I guess you guys can have your PvP set that can do anything.

[iiell]

I dunno.. maybe to gear up for Nightmare mode? I think it would be really stupid if you could use War Hero gear for even Nightmare mode. Maybe I'm the only one that thinks it though. Whatever..I guess you guys can have your PvP set that can do anything.

 

Can do anything? I'd love to see how much more healers would struggle to keep up a tank wearing WH gear over a tank wearing Campaign gear. You can PVP in PVE gear, but you're at a disadvantage. I can PVE in PVP gear, but I'm at a disadvantage. Seems pretty equal to me...

[ElintSlave]

Can do anything? I'd love to see how much more healers would struggle to keep up a tank wearing WH gear over a tank wearing Campaign gear. You can PVP in PVE gear, but you're at a disadvantage. I can PVE in PVP gear, but I'm at a disadvantage. Seems pretty equal to me...

 

They had to keep me up when I was wearing Rakata. War Hero is pretty much equivalent to Rakata HP wise but has way more mitigation than the stupid pos that Rakata has.

[BlazingShadow]

Can do anything? I'd love to see how much more healers would struggle to keep up a tank wearing WH gear over a tank wearing Campaign gear. You can PVP in PVE gear, but you're at a disadvantage. I can PVE in PVP gear, but I'm at a disadvantage. Seems pretty equal to me...

 

you're missing the point. completely.

 

War Hero gear isn't better than Campaign gear, OBVIOUSLY, because they're equal tiers in different areas of content.

 

HOWEVER, War Hero gear is better than RAKATA gear, thus: War hero gear is perfectly fine to PVE in. Anything that drops Campaign gear does not require campaign gear to complete, thus: war hero gear is good enough to surpass all current PVE content.

 

The same cannot be said about PVE gear in PVP. Wear full Rakata, you will barely keep up with someone in recruit gear. That's the entire problem that is being pointed out.

 

Nerf PVP gear in PVE, or make PVE gear useable in PVP?

Edited May 2, 2012 by BlazingShadow

[iiell]

 

The same cannot be said about PVE gear in PVP. Wear full Rakata, you will barely keep up with someone in recruit gear.

 

You can surpass PVP content with Rakata gear, you're just severely gimping yourself. Same could be said of wearing WH gear in end-game PVE, except to a lesser extent. Besides, PVP content is different than PVE content. There really isn't anything to "surpass" in PVP...most people PVP because it tends to be more dynamic than PVE, thus more entertaining. I know I hate running the same scripted fights over and over.

 

If you had to choose between a tank wearing full WH gear or full Rakata gear, which would you choose for your end-game PVE tank?

[PloGreen]

The point of this thread is what? Pve gear is better than war hero gear for pve. War hero gear is better for pvp. That's all there is to it.

 

Op what exactly are you arguing about? War hero might be useable in pve but it's not preferable and that's what matters.

 

Pve is alot easier than pvp anyway, since they are scripted encounters. So comparing how effective types if armor in one mode vs another is flawed anyway.

 

I doubt many pve guilds are farming raids in war hero gear on nightmare mode, since it takes ages to get war hero gear in comparison and pve gear is better anyway for pve.

Edited May 2, 2012 by PloGreen

[ElintSlave]

You can surpass PVP content with Rakata gear, you're just severely gimping yourself. Same could be said of wearing WH gear in end-game PVE, except to a lesser extent. Besides, PVP content is different than PVE content. There really isn't anything to "surpass" in PVP...most people PVP because it tends to be more dynamic than PVE, thus more entertaining. I know I hate running the same scripted fights over and over.

 

If you had to choose between a tank wearing full WH gear or full Rakata gear, which would you choose for your end-game PVE tank?

 

I'd wear the War Hero gear. The war hero gear is better for mitigation than Rakata is. End of story.

[Chesty_Jake]

I shall immediately go smack my crafter friends for their failure! ^_^

 

Thank you for pointing this out. For those who will then jump on this to prove it is "fair," the imbalance then comes in that you must obtain the pve drops, then take the 20% chance to get these shells. A PvP'er can simply buy them, and this augmented gear is "locked" by a valor ranking.

 

you can buy the shell... it's an empty shell. You still need to have gear to put into it.

 

Try again. System as is works just fine. You have from lvl 1 to 49 to pvp away in whatever gear. Get in the big's you need Expertise bottom line.

[Doomsdaycomes]

Are you trying to say that if you had WH gear and you are doing PVE, you would pass on Campaign gear, because your WH gear "can be viable in most PVE content"? I think not! The only reason you think the system is imbalanced is because you want to "own" people in PVP, wearing your PVE gear. Face the facts bro!

 

^_^ another ignorant poster. On any of my PvP toons I wear pvp gear. Unlike yourself, I can still be unbiased when making a call about what is fair and what is not. I am a gamer, I pve and pvp, wearing the appropriate gear for either. Does not make the fact WH is viable in 2 areas where as it's "equal" is only viable in one.

 

Face the facts, bro.

[Doomsdaycomes]

you can buy the shell... it's an empty shell. You still need to have gear to put into it.

 

Try again. System as is works just fine. You have from lvl 1 to 49 to pvp away in whatever gear. Get in the big's you need Expertise bottom line.

 

Please try again. This post was in reference to -augmented- gear. A person who pvp's can easily obtian the schematic for pvp only (locked by a valor level) shells, including boots and gloves. Their PvE counterparts (boots and gloves) are -much- harder to obtian. Once someone has the shell for the gear, they can then craft -augmented- gear, then switch their gear into it as well as an augment (Which will add both PvE and PvP useful stats.)

 

As to your second line, the thread is about the balance between two same tier pvp and pve gear sets, and their stat pool imbalance. Further imbalances expanded beyond that, and I was not simply talking about "not wanting to have expertise." Learn to read, bottom line.

Edited May 2, 2012 by Doomsdaycomes

[Semitote]

Here's the problem:

 

PvE: http://www.torhead.com/item/8tEYUpe/advanced-adept-enhancement-26

PvP: http://www.torhead.com/item/8pxfywz/war-heros-adept-enhancement-26

 

4 surge rating for 30 expertise.

 

PvE gear is almost worthless in PvP (aside from tank sets which benefit only vs. certain classes). PvP gear is only a slight downgrade to PvE gear.

 

The dilemma is that you can get a group geared faster by PvP'ing than by PvE'ing. PvE Operations are affected by lockouts and RNG drops (though the Campaign token change was a step in the right direction). PvP gear you get what you put in the time for. PvP is guaranteed results and can result in multiple pieces for all 16 members of your raid group each week whereas PvE content you might get one piece per member in your 16-man group if you're lucky. The difference is, individual members of your raid group are locked out where PvP'ers can continue grinding at all times - so those with more time, will get more gear. I'm not saying PvE'ers can't do the same thing (PvP whenever they are locked out of raids), but I'm saying that should not be the design. A PvE'er should not be able to benefit from PvP except in extreme cases. (I.E. - Replacing Tionese/Columi with War Hero should probably be an upgrade.. But War Hero should never be even close to an upgrade to Rakata/Campaign.)

 

The stat weights are bogus and it's also making it harder to be effective in entry level PvP because they give them so many secondary stats. They should lose 30 secondary stats for 30 expertise. The mods and enhancements are absolutely bogus since PvE'ers pretty much have to get PvP gear if they want to PvP, but PvP gear is viable in PvE.

Edited May 2, 2012 by Semitote

[skincarver]

I have no problem doing HM Flash points and operations in battle master gear.

[Illyean]

BW made a mess of this, following a fatally flawed notion. The concept of not making PvE gear viable in PvP is based on other failed implementations where the PvE gear was BETTER, it should not be better it should be equal. The reverse is true.

 

The pay off for the developer is they end up with a magic stat that they can use to manipulate PvP and PvE separately which is supposed to mean that a nerf/buff against a PvP mechanic does not impact a PvE mechanic, sorry but thats a crock, it could work but it doesn't!

 

I find the will to separate PvP'er from PvE'ers awful, the two paths separate each other based on their relative skills and play styles but for those who cross over fighting against a split is dumb.

 

In a game with populations that cant pop a warzone inside 20 minutes or get 4 (FOUR!) people of the right class together for an HM FP why of why do we want things to separate people?

 

Expertise is not a bad idea, its just not a good one

[Zocat]

Here's the problem:

 

PvE: http://www.torhead.com/item/8tEYUpe/advanced-adept-enhancement-26

PvP: http://www.torhead.com/item/8pxfywz/war-heros-adept-enhancement-26

 

4 surge rating for 30 expertise.

[...]

 

The stat weights are bogus and it's also making it harder to be effective in entry level PvP because they give them so many secondary stats. They should lose 30 secondary stats for 30 expertise. The mods and enhancements are absolutely bogus since PvE'ers pretty much have to get PvP gear if they want to PvP, but PvP gear is viable in PvE.

 

Yes the stat weights are bogus, since you arbitrarily declare a 1:1 conversion.

How about this: we change all expertise so it's 1/10th of it's original value.

Instead of 30 expertise it's now 3. Instead of 110 expertise on WH it's 11. Instead of 550 expertise on full WH compared to campaign it's 55.

Now we have - in your example - 4 surge for 3 expertise. Seems fair.

 

Please show that 1 expertise is worth 1 secondary stat if you make such a claim.

 

Oh and as I said earlier:

PvE gear is viable in PvP when rated warzones are around. You will be matched against other people in PvE gear.

You will be able to earn rated warzone comms (as in: the best available PvP gear) with your PvE gear. So it's fair that you can earn PvE gear with PvP gear.

Edited May 2, 2012 by Zocat

[DarthKhaos]

You know what's funny?

 

The OP is upset that you can use War Hero gear and complete PvE content to get rewarded in the PvE content. But you cannot use the top end Raiding gear (To be honest I got no idea what the name of that gear is) to complete PvP content and get rewarded in the PvP content.

 

Can anyone else see the flaw in what he's saying?

[mystbladex]

You "Can" pvp in pve gear

You "Can pve in pvp gear

 

Pve = scripted boss fights, they never change, same thing happens. It is one big sync of a dance party.

 

If you know what you are doing, know where to stand, what to hit, what it interrupt, what not do dps, what to dps, what to heal, ect The gear for PvE you can do in PvP gear. Is it ideal? No its not and might have issues with burn phases.

 

PvP = non scripted fights, every fight is unique.

 

Again if you know what you are doing in PvE gear you can do well in PvP, I have seen it first hand. A sniper in mixed 140/146 pve gear no pvp gear did over 350k in civil war against well known pvp players on the other side.

The pve healer was able to keep me up most of the time and they capture points and had fun, we won.

 

But yes it should be separated, if you PvE you get PvE reward to help you progress with PvE content.

If you PvP you get PvP rewards to help you progress with PvP content

 

The gap should be huge

[Semitote]

Yes the stat weights are bogus, since you arbitrarily declare a 1:1 conversion.

How about this: we change all expertise so it's 1/10th of it's original value.

Instead of 30 expertise it's now 3. Instead of 110 expertise on WH it's 11. Instead of 550 expertise on full WH compared to campaign it's 55.

Now we have - in your example - 4 surge for 3 expertise. Seems fair.

 

Please show that 1 expertise is worth 1 secondary stat if you make such a claim.

 

Oh and as I said earlier:

PvE gear is viable in PvP when rated warzones are around. You will be matched against other people in PvE gear.

You will be able to earn rated warzone comms (as in: the best available PvP gear) with your PvE gear. So it's fair that you can earn PvE gear with PvP gear.

 

1 expertise is worth more than 1 secondary stat, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure it out. If you disagree with my math, provide some math of your own.

[wessik]

Thank you for posting this.

 

As the OP notes, the two sets are suppose to be of equal tiers, yet the pvp set has a much larger stat pool. One of the battle cries of the PvP exclusive gear crowd has been "They take off primary stats to add expertise" yet they are taking off less stats point then they are adding in expertise points. Aka, imbalance.

 

As someone else pointed out, expertise is a stat that effects 3 major things at once. Point wise, it is a heavier stat. As for the person saying "Do you know how long it takes to get WH?" It takes a long time to gain Campaign gear as well, not to mention WH's grind was set long because it was meant to be gained through Rate warzones.

 

WH is viable in most PvE content. None of the PvE sets are viable in warzones. Imbalance, there is no other way to see it.

 

wth are you talking about? expertise DOES NOT WORK in pve....

 

using the example given previously:

 

Marauder 5 piece set

 

War Hero Gear = 2106 Stat Points - 550 = 1556 stat pool in PVE

Strength = 461 (-141)

Endurance = 537 (-108)

Expertise = 550 (+550)

Power = 61 (-2)

Critical Rating = 232 (0)

Accuracy = 106 (+49)

Surge = 159 (-69)

 

Campaign Gear = 1827 Stat Points

Strength = 602 (+141)

Endurance = 645 (+108)

Expertise = 0 (-550)

Power = 63 (+2)

 

in PVE, 1827 > 1556, therefore campaign > WH (as it should be)

in PVP, 2106 > 1827, therefore WH > campaign (as it should be)

Edited May 2, 2012 by wessik

[Illyean]

The gap should be huge

 

Why? how does it improve the game for anyone to exclude rather than include, its a genuine question. I completely agree that a PvP'er should not be geared better than a PvE'er (and vice versa) given equal 'gaming', no one wants to have a PvE'er walk over everyone in PvP, but I do not see why exclusion is the right way to fix it, nor see it even as the simplest as clearly even in this greatly dumbed down MMO it isn't working

[Zocat]

1 expertise is worth more than 1 secondary stat, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure it out. If you disagree with my math, provide some math of your own.

 

You have shown no math - therefore I cannot disagree with your math.

You just made an assumption - I said you should show something which supports that assumption.

You fail to do that.

 

My math:

0 * x = 0

y * x > 0 with y > 0

Therefore secondary stats are worth more than expertise.