Someone explain the LFG tool hate?

[DarthTHC]

So why are you here?

 

If you are running four raid nights a week, using the LFG (supposedly on alternate nights), how is it that you have time to play another game? Why would you even want to if you enjoy that so much.

 

Like much of the hyperbole here, I'm calling this one as yet another that just blindly seeks an LFG and will promulgate any falsehood to support the argument.

 

BTW, what guild. I'd like to armory them and check the numbers because we all know how guild membership reflects actual active players.

 

I'm going to go ahead and guess that he's here in this thread because he enjoys doing group content and wants a better way to experience it, rather than experiencing chat spam while standing around on Fleet.

 

I might also go out on a limb and say that he wants other people who aren't lucky enough to live on a server populated enough to support large guilds to be able to experience group content.

[Timesjoke]

We all have the right to our opinions, but as I stated, stop painting the LFG as a panacea, it is far from such, very far.

Stop taking a couple posts out of millions to try and make your case.

 

I see some idiot spamming garbage in chast right now, does that mean they represent every other SWTOR player?

 

The LFG tool is needed because even with a guild it is impossible to get people on the game at the same time to fill out runs. This is a fact WoW had to face and deal with to preserve players.

 

 

This is margeted as a MMO, but where is the MM?

 

On only a narrow span of 2 to 4 hours a day on just a couple servers does this game fit the MMO description, the rest of the 20+ hours of the day it is more like a single player shooter. The lack of players during the day (even the fatman shows low during the day sometimes) is the the paying player's fault. Not being able to group has nothing to do with community, nothing to do with good or bad behaviors, the only factor is the lack of other players on at the same time to find other players to fill out a balanced party.

 

Even if we divide the number of servers in half, we will still have the exact same problem of not enough people (or not the right people) to fill out groups......just like WoW had before they added the LFG tool.

[wyvernmonarch]

there's little to argue about. it's almost impossible to find any group for pve on my server, and warzones only fire regularly during peak hours.

 

a lfg tool isn't gonna hurt anyone because currently its basically impossible to find a group anyways

[Blackardin]

Based on his writing alone, I'm going to go ahead and assume he probably richly deserved a vote-kick. Not the best example of the system working poorly.

 

Did a fly-by, did I? ;p

 

The point was not to exemplify the system at work, but to demonstrate the type of player that it breeds, that many of us got tired of dealing with but were randomly tossed into dungeons with. It is why there was a tank shortage and we, on the tanking boards saw so many posts from new tanks refusing to do dungeons, seeking alternate means by which to gear.

 

However, if one wanted to speak of the system at work, the very fact that these two individuals can continue to queue time after time, disrupt other's runs time after time with no determinant accountability does demonstrate its further failure. Accountability, like the gratification sought, is instant and short lived. The crux of the problem.

 

That is exactly why it is so easy to support in discussion such as this, because on paper it appears to be a panacea, in practice it is a dismal failure....especially when there are far better alternatives that will both solve the problem and avoid the debacle.

 

Either way, we can argue this to infinity folks, its already been voted against and will not be in this game. Thank the maker. ;p

[vincent-]

The problem for me isn't the LFG queueing system, it's the cross server system that sucks. MMORPG's are about meeting players, grouping and developing a community, how is this possible if you are grouping with players on other servers who you will never see again?

 

I have made a lot of friends over the years, many im still in contact with, quite a few i still game with, all i met through gaming and most through grouping.

 

If they implement the cross server system anyone joining a guild will do so cold, your chances of meeting a nice guild through grouping with them and joining that way is pretty much nil.

 

The community in swtor is bad enough as it is, this is just another nail in the coffin.

 

Pretty much this.

A community should stay with it's own. I rather be on one whole server than have a hop over to one for one stupid mission and discover that there a holes or awesome people. That and I rather call out good guilds and bad people on servers to make a point.

[DarthTHC]

So you're telling us that vote-kick doesn't work to remove idiots from the groups?

 

If that's truly the case, that is a flaw to be rectified in the implementation of the tool. It doesn't mean X-LFG is bad. It means the tool needs better features to ensure idiots can be dealt with properly.

[marseluswallace]

Hoping someone can explain why the hate for the LFG tool that seems to abound on these forums, and if my thinking is so way off mark! Having played MMOs since Ultima Online, through SWG, WOW, RIFT, EQ, STO, LOTRO etc, I have seen various implementations of the above tool, and can honestly say, the tool improves MY gaming experience massively, just wondering why the hate, and how it has such a negative impact on others

 

So far the common arguments I have seen, which dont seem to hold any weight are:

 

'It ruins the community' - really? I fail to see how general chat spam of "LF2M Healer and Tank" over and over quantifies as community (and normally in caps)!! Those who argue you should make your own friends and guild mates, well then clearly you are very fortunate to have so many friends playing SWTOR at the same time who are wanting to instance at the same time that you wont need the LFG Tool, so again, I fail to see why the hate.

 

'All that is needed is a Global General Chat' - this would be great, but again would just be filled with spam, and also all the idiotic chatter about chuck norris, or how someone did something to someone elses mom, and actually have very little impact on LFG due to your message being lost in nonsense, not to mention that you have to watch the chat closely incase you miss your option.

 

'It ruins immersion' - normally from pvpers who like to gank people onroute to instance, or from people who want to see peeps travelling. Seems as all the instances are on the Fleets, then again, a LFG tool, even with insta telepor, would hardly ruin this?

 

'People can ninja with immunity' - probably the only valid argument i can see so far, but seems as most items are usable bny anyone and their companion, and people already role on items for their companions, it again looses weight.

 

As I see it the LFG tool means I dont have to spend Ages trying to find a group by sitting in Imperial fleet watching the drivel in general chat, I can play the game, with friends, whilst waiting for my group to assemble. Those who are violently opposed to this dont have to use it afterall, and can continue to spam, or play with their friends. The only valid reason I can think of is that maybe those who oppose it so much are such terrible players, they are afraid their 'friends' will abandon them if it is easier to get a group?!!!

 

Those of you who take time to post constructive posts, thanks, hope it will help to educate/Develop my understanding. Those who just flame, OMG LFG tool is terribad with no justification, please save it for one of the other million threads about LFG tools!

 

In some games, like lets take STO for instance, this function works like a charm. Why? No griefing due to Ninja Looting. LFG Tool sets you up with anyone. I would rather put together a raid group with people I know, or have been suggested to group with, rather than some unknown that will ninja loot the gear myself or others are trying to get. Or, in TOR's case. You're doing a Heroic or FP, and an Item for you class drops and you need it, the person you with that is the opposite class, will need the item and take it from you.

 

Thats is pretty much my biggest beef with it. If people could be more honest and not so crappy, ya right, then this function would work alot better.

[DarthTHC]

In some games, like lets take STO for instance, this function works like a charm. Why? No griefing due to Ninja Looting. LFG Tool sets you up with anyone. I would rather put together a raid group with people I know, or have been suggested to group with, rather than some unknown that will ninja loot the gear myself or others are trying to get. Or, in TOR's case. You're doing a Heroic or FP, and an Item for you class drops and you need it, the person you with that is the opposite class, will need the item and take it from you.

 

Thats is pretty much my biggest beef with it. If people could be more honest and not so crappy, ya right, then this function would work alot better.

 

The problem with your thought process is that you've based it entirely upon the notion of "Ninja Looting". BioWare developers have said that it's fine for people to roll Need even if they just need the credits they'll get from vendoring the item. (I don't agree with that, but it's what the devs said, so it is what it is.)

 

There is no Ninja Looting in this game.

[DawnAskham]

This is all a moot point. Bioware will implement an LFG tool, and for technical / 'let the community adapt' reasons it will be single server at first, but eventually it will go cross server.

 

It is NOT a matter of IF, it is a matter of WHEN.

 

And you can quote whatever you like from whatever developer you want saying otherwise, but it won't make the above any less true.

 

And the reason is simple. Every major competitor out there either has or will have cross server grouping abilities. The 'suits' at Bioware will not handicap their game by not offering features that are in high demand with today's player base that other games have, regardless of any individual developer's personal feelings.

[Blackardin]

Stop taking a couple posts out of millions to try and make your case.

 

I see some idiot spamming garbage in chast right now, does that mean they represent every other SWTOR player?

 

Another fly-by. Maybe I should come in lower. LOL

 

sorry, no offense there. Just kidding a bit.

 

The difference is that your example will not force his way into my group through some random chance. The one in mine will, time and time again. Your can be held accountable, mine cannot. Stop trying to dance this discussion all over the place with visceral reactive replies and concentrate rather on the reasoning being explained.

Edited May 3, 2012 by Blackardin

[RexxThundarr]

holy hells, 41 pages of blah. the answer to the question is very simple: no matter what BW implements, a large number of people will hate it, either for valid reasons or just because they have to yell about something. hell, BW could give everyone free puppies & rainbows, and people would file lawsuits due to allergies to dog hair and the color purple.

 

good luck with that "arguing on the Innerwebz" thing.

[Skidrowbro]

For the people on very low populated servers I feel for you but you have a choice to play on other servers and once transfers kick in you can move your toon. As for the LFG hate, it's not so much the tool but what it brings out in players. In the fun days when there was no LFG douche bags were held accountable for their actions. They either had to buck up and quit action.g like morons or they never got into groups but one the X-LFG came into play they had free reign again to be the douche that they are.

 

Another thing about blizzard is that Activision bought them out and what big game does Activision make? That's right CoD. So their view on the MMO world was to bring console players who have no concept of real group play so now they need something.g to get these guys into the game and voila, X-LFG is born. Oh but these guys have no idea how to play? Ok simple, lets lower the difficulty of the dudungeons so the fps players can complete them.

[Blackardin]

This is all a moot point. Bioware will implement an LFG tool, and for technical / 'let the community adapt' reasons it will be single server at first, but eventually it will go cross server.

 

It is NOT a matter of IF, it is a matter of WHEN.

 

Actually it will be server wide only. That is what they stated. They stated that they would not be making it cross server just as they stated (again, thank the maker) that meters would never be in game.

 

For the record, that coupled with server merges, transport to and from dungeons, greater reward motivation for leveling groups are all items that I fully support as they are a far, far better, far more effective tool with far less negative side effects then a random cross server LFG.

 

This entire discussion is moot, but centered around a few posters that simply will not allow themselves to explore any alternate beyond what they have convinced themselves is a panacea even in light of boatloads of evidence that it is not, not for this type of game. If a cross server LFG was the best and only option (which the dev team of wow believed at the time), I would support it, but its not. Its a dinosaur. There is a better way.

 

Note: If you have found anything that suggests that there will eventually be a cross server LFG, please post it and I will stand corrected in that regard. I've yet to find so it will be interesting to read. Appreciate it. ;p).

[Blackardin]

holy hells, 41 pages of blah. the answer to the question is very simple: no matter what BW implements, a large number of people will hate it, either for valid reasons or just because they have to yell about something. hell, BW could give everyone free puppies & rainbows, and people would file lawsuits due to allergies to dog hair and the color purple.

 

good luck with that "arguing on the Innerwebz" thing.

 

LOL. so very true. ;p

[Blackardin]

For the people on very low populated servers I feel for you but you have a choice to play on other servers and once transfers kick in you can move your toon. As for the LFG hate, it's not so much the tool but what it brings out in players. In the fun days when there was no LFG douche bags were held accountable for their actions. They either had to buck up and quit action.g like morons or they never got into groups but one the X-LFG came into play they had free reign again to be the douche that they are.

 

Exactly. The entirety of the thread reduced to a single paragraph.

 

I'll depart the thread on that note.

 

Thank you good sir.

[DigitalPrime]

This thread is going round and round. The pro X-server group seem to miss over the points brought forward, blind that other alternatives work and have worked for nearly 2 decades. Then they start making assumptions to why we dont want x-server. BW feel the same, im sure they are assuming aswell ey?

 

X-server allows people to find a group - So does the current system

 

It allows players to find players at anytime - So does a server merg, you will always find players who game around the same time you do. Its how MMOs have worked for years, Way before your presious WoW.

 

So, if all bases are covered with other systems which are incoming and have been addressed. Why are you making up reasons for X server? because wow has it.... TOR isnt wow, BW are not Bliz.

[Timesjoke]

Another fly-by. Maybe I should come in lower. LOL

 

sorry, no offense there. Just kidding a bit.

 

The difference is that your example will not force his way into my group through some random chance. The one in mine will, time and time again. Your can be held accountable, mine cannot. Stop trying to dance this discussion all over the place with visceral reactive replies and concentrate rather on the reasoning being explained.

 

You are the one dancing all over the place, you 'claim' that a LFG tool will destroy a MMO but the facts are something else.

 

I have been in thousands of LFG runs and a pure idiot being able to stay is an extreme rarity. Go to WoWprogress and look up guilds by realms, you will see many thousands of strong guild having large memberships and guild achievements for completing endgame content. If what you say is true, in that a LFG tool completely erases all community, how do you explain so many powerful guild completing endgame content in WoW?

 

The truth is, there is no harm in the slightest with a LFG tool, the only thing that the LFG tool does is break the stranglehold the few Elitists have over the content.

[DigitalPrime]

The truth is, there is no harm in the slightest with a LFG tool, the only thing that the LFG tool does is break the stranglehold the few Elitists have over the content.

 

We have a new one, they just get better and better.

 

Subbed to thread.

[Paretheus]

Why don't we try using the LFG utility built in to the "Who" function that already exists? Very few people use that, from my experience, even though it could be extremely useful.

[Darth_Bond]

Some people think it's social to spam LFG on the chat and never get a group of people to actually spend time with lol

 

you sir....are awsome, stealing that for my sig.

[Timesjoke]

This thread is going round and round. The pro X-server group seem to miss over the points brought forward, blind that other alternatives work and have worked for nearly 2 decades. Then they start making assumptions to why we dont want x-server. BW feel the same, im sure they are assuming aswell ey?

 

No, the points being made are made up false claims, period. As I told one of your fellow elitsts, go look up WoWprogress and see how mahny thousands of guilds are thriving and downing content, if a LFG tool was all destructive, how do you explain more guilds, and more successful guilds?

X-server allows people to find a group - So does the current system

 

What?

 

Why do you think so many people are here talking about? There is nobody to group with on the servers, even the fatman is at low population many times during the day, how do you call nobody to play with a success?

 

It allows players to find players at anytime - So does a server merg, you will always find players who game around the same time you do. Its how MMOs have worked for years, Way before your presious WoW.

 

Again.....what?

 

WoW started the LFG system because their data showed that fewer than 20% of the players were able to find groups. The community was complainaing that there simply were not enough people on at the same time and from those who were there was a issue with getting gear to get ready for runs for the same reason of not enough other players to fill out runs.

 

 

So, if all bases are covered with other systems which are incoming and have been addressed. Why are you making up reasons for X server? because wow has it.... TOR isnt wow, BW are not Bliz.

It is people like you creatlng false fears against X server that baffle me to be honest.

 

There is no evidence at all that the LFG toll will have any negative effect. The largest and most successful MMO in history has been using it for a long time and they are getting bigger, not dying.

 

I got into a HM 4 man the other day where one of the guys took an item for a helper when I needed it for me, the guy quoted the staff of this game saying taking gear for helpers is perfectly okay, so where is the community action against a Ninja when even the staff say being a Ninja is okay? You have no basis for saying a LFG tool is bad, only empty claims that sound like fear of letting a 'casual' player get a chance at seeing endgame content and making the Elitists less "special".

Edited May 3, 2012 by Timesjoke

[Muskaan]

A cross server LFG tool is a psychological experiment in human nature. It comprehensively proves that given the lack of accountability and the safe haven of anonymity, human beings are grade A jerks in nature.

 

That being said, purely from a gameplay standpoint, the pros outweigh the cons by a LOT by simply increasing the player pool to form your 4 man groups from. Result -- quicker turn around time for PvE and PvP queue.

Edited May 3, 2012 by Muskaan

[Skidrowbro]

A cross server LFG tool is a psychological experiment in human nature. It comprehensively proves that given the lack of accountability and the safe haven of anonymity, human beings are grade A jerks in nature.

 

That being said, purely from a gameplay standpoint, the pros outweigh the cons by a LOT by simply increasing the player pool to form your 4 man groups from. Result -- quicker turn around time for PvE and PvP queue.

 

Dungeons were ever designed to be a chain run only game. That's the concept the pro LFG folks haven't grasped. There is more to an MMO than running dungeons/FP's or whatever you want to call them. Learn the RPG part.

[Muskaan]

Dungeons were ever designed to be a chain run only game. That's the concept the pro LFG folks haven't grasped. There is more to an MMO than running dungeons/FP's or whatever you want to call them. Learn the RPG part.

 

Nothing in the LFG tool is preventing you from enjoying the non dungeon aspect of the game. You are free to enjoy the RPG aspect equally as much with or without the LFG tool.

 

LFG stands for "Looking For Group" -- it's a feature exclusively designed to target that segment of the playerbase who likes to group and wants to group.

 

Kindly explain how an LFG tool will negatively impact your solo gameplay experience?

[Timesjoke]

For the people on very low populated servers I feel for you but you have a choice to play on other servers and once transfers kick in you can move your toon. As for the LFG hate, it's not so much the tool but what it brings out in players. In the fun days when there was no LFG douche bags were held accountable for their actions. They either had to buck up and quit action.g like morons or they never got into groups but one the X-LFG came into play they had free reign again to be the douche that they are.

 

I really feel bad that so many of you feel it necessary to come here and say such wrong things over and over as if it was true, but of course you have no actual proof or facts to back up your claims.

 

If the LFG tool was so bad, why did WoW get stronger after they added it? If the tool eliminated guilds, why are there so many successful guilds on every WoW server? If everyone just runs crazy in the LFG raids why is it so many people do them and are so happy with them they keep paying their $15 a month?

 

The success of WoW directly proves you wrong.

 

Another thing about blizzard is that Activision bought them out and what big game does Activision make? That's right CoD. So their view on the MMO world was to bring console players who have no concept of real group play so now they need something.g to get these guys into the game and voila, X-LFG is born. Oh but these guys have no idea how to play? Ok simple, lets lower the difficulty of the dudungeons so the fps players can complete them.

 

UM........nice fantacy there, I guess it helps to support your false beliefs of how things are in WoW but the sad truth is the LFG tools came before activision, so sad for you to be so horribly wrong.

 

I have played WoW from vanilla and watched the LFG discussion from it's start and the reason they turned to it is the same reasons most of us are asking for it, nobody to group up with.

 

Other than a narrow 2 to 4 hour window on a couple servers, this game is barren. 20+ hours a day, 8 man groups are all but impossible to find.

 

So the issue is not that people are lazy, or that they want to ninja everything, or that they hate other people, the issue is about having enough people to run with outside that 2 to 4 hour window.