Someone explain the LFG tool hate?

[Jederix]

Lol, the last part is funny because it's not me telling you how to play the game. It is part of the genre, you know, the MMO part?

 

MMO = Massively Multiplayer Online.

 

We have this so what are you..... Oh, I see. What you are talking about is this false assertion that MMO somehow means you need to befriend and care about the others that you play with.

 

Most of us don't care. We just want to play. I don't see the issue.

[Sammm]

I remember a couple of years ago, I was talking about the lfg tools in mmos with some friends and acquaintances. It appears to me that the mmo players who love it vs the ones who hate it have such different and nearly irreconcilable viewpoints about it.

 

Personally, if I play a mmo which doesn't have a lfg tool, I adapt or I just leave. No one's forcing me to play the game. Either I'd lfg/lfm in the general chat or I'd leave the game. Is that so complicated?

 

But of course I'm really happy that a lfg tool will be implemented in the upcoming update 1.3. It will give SWTOR players more options for grouping. Usually more options is better, right?

[GalacticKegger]

This is the only legit point I have seen in this entire thread as to the negative a LFG tool can bring.

Kudos to you sir and thank you for bringing a point of view that is tangible to the table and not the same old... "it will destroy the community" crap spouted by so many.

 

I honestly have nothing to debate with the above issue, I have seen it and experienced it myself in WoW. I have seen tons of threads on the lack of content and the ease in which you can burn through it and also the complaints of not having anything to "tide us over" till the next big content patch. I myself have started some of them over the years and been involved in most of them.

 

All I can hope is that Swtor continues to put out content every couple months and they augment existing content with events such as the plague daily's.

Thx! Blizzard president Michael Morhaime addressed this very issue right after they reported losing 300k subs in a month. His points were that (a) players are overusing the automated tools which empower them to consume content too fast, and (b) subscribership and player activity fluctuations are subject to "churnover" based on content releases. His take is that updates are becoming more about keeping up with how fast players are burning through content because of the automated tools, and less about introducing anything fresh.

 

His keynote is that players follow the new content, regardless of the game. And with the bevy of games available as well as the increased demand for in-game automation, no developer (not even Blizzard) can keep up. The Facebook & console game industries are skyrocketing because their titles are low maintenance. MMORPGs being maintenance sinkholes is also why there are no supported MMORPGs for either.

 

Welcome to the machine.

Edited May 2, 2012 by GalacticKegger

[Skidrowbro]

.

 

Most of us don't care.

 

And some people are wondering why they can't get groups

[MasterKayote]

I was and will always only speak for myself, this is why I say, "I think" or "to me" It is awesome that your server has a community that you and a few buddies can experience, I want that too. But as you so eloquently pointed out... only a few servers have this type of thing. The vast majority do not have the pops to sustain it.

You either missed the point or dismissed it. Your problem there is low populations, not that there isnt a cross server tool. While xserver LFG can fix it, it comes with its own drawbacks and it doesnt solve the fact that youre still in a low pop server. There are other effective procedures Bioware can and should take with little to no negative consequence which will put you and others like you in server like mine where grouping is very possible and (hopefully) made even easier and more convenient with an in-server LFG tool

 

Again, I ask for just one ounce of proof or anything that can be remotely construed as proof...

 

Your assertion that the people on the WOW boards is proof of anything but a vocal minority QQ fest is ludicrous at best.

 

10 million people still play that game... 1.2 million play Swtor... trying to say WoW has been ruined by anything is the biggest load of crap I have ever heard of.

It may have been ruined for YOU...

but I will use your own words... "Speak for yourself"

 

I just went and skimmed the first 15 pages of the WOW general chat thread... there is not a single topic that comes close to a discussion about LFG. Your claim that your "proof" is on the WoW boards seems to be a bit off my friend, perhaps a different misrepresentation of the truth will serve your purpose better?

 

Absence of proof proves nothing. Just because no one has made some scientific study of it doesnt mean the contrary is true. Look it up. Go ahead, claim that we all just came up with the same exact reasons out of thin air, stop implying it and say it clearly. Also you might want to take a closer look, just browsing first page theres threads about people constantly queueing in with wrong specs they dont have or arent geared for and posts about constant rudeness, ninja'd gear, the horrible quality of the community, etc ... all centered or related to the LFG tool they have. Not to mention the 2-3 times ive posted several different threads/posts from different days which have been dismissed by some as "minority" regardless of the fact its the same exact concerns we're bringing up here from the people in the very game going through the very consequences you all seem to ignore or not care about just to get your precious insta-groups. But go ahead, continue to claim these are all unbased claims we all just magically pulled from no where .. there is no problem at all with xserver LFG /sarcasm.

[KendrickX]

Also you might want to take a closer look, just browsing first page theres threads about people constantly queueing in with wrong specs they dont have or arent geared for and posts about constant rudeness, ninja'd gear, the horrible quality of the community, etc ... all centered or related to the LFG tool they have. Not to mention the 2-3 times ive posted several different threads/posts from different days which have been dismissed by some as "minority" regardless of the fact its the same exact concerns we're bringing up here from the people in the very game going through the very consequences you all seem to ignore or not care about just to get your precious insta-groups. But go ahead, continue to claim these are all unbased claims we all just magically pulled from no where .. there is no problem at all with xserver LFG /sarcasm.

 

WoW is extra popular. Therefor a lot of morons, trolls, ninjas and such. Right now SWTOR is dying. We don't have a problem with morons and trolls - we have a problem with inability to group at all on low-pop servers. And even on decent-pop servers, when you want to do FP, and there are no tanks (heals etc) of your level on the Fleet.

[Jaxarale]

You either missed the point or dismissed it. Your problem there is low populations, not that there isnt a cross server tool. While xserver LFG can fix it, it comes with its own drawbacks and it doesnt solve the fact that youre still in a low pop server. There are other effective procedures Bioware can and should take with little to no negative consequence which will put you and others like you in server like mine where grouping is very possible and (hopefully) made even easier and more convenient with an in-server LFG tool

 

The problem here is this is entirely your opinion, I did not miss your point, I agree that low pop is a problem, we just disagree on how to solve it and if there is any negative effect on the supposed community. It is also your opinion that BW has options that they can take that have "little or no negative" consequence. Is merging servers one? That alone is a harbinger of doom in the gaming world so I doubt very seriously that it would have "little or no" consequence. Free server xfers? While this will help right now... can they afford to leave them open for months or forever to insure that all their paying customers get a chance to get off dead servers?

I do not see any easy fix for the problem as you seem to.

 

Absence of proof proves nothing.

 

Hrmm, actually it proves there is no proof... but I digress... It is you and your cronies that continue to claim LFG will destroy the game... the Pro LFG have made no claims except it will allow me to do group content while leveling... not sure what your point is.

 

Just to bow to your level... wouldn't the fact that WoW has over 10 million subs still and is almost 8 years old be a kind of proof that LFG hasn't "destroyed the game"

Seeing as the game is still up and running and has 10x's the subs that Swtor has... its pretty clear proof that the LFG did not destroy the game... LULZ

 

/looks around for WOW cause apparently it was destroyed and is no longer even a game with any servers open or a single person playing it!

 

Just because no one has made some scientific study of it doesn't mean the contrary is true.

 

So in 1492 just because no one had proof the world was round... it means it was flat??? huh?

 

Look it up.

 

I did already... about 3 hours ago...

 

Go ahead, claim that we all just came up with the same exact reasons out of thin air, stop implying it and say it clearly.

 

I am not implying anything nor saying you made up anything, I said your wrong in my opinion... that is all.

 

Also you might want to take a closer look, just browsing first page theres threads about people constantly queueing in with wrong specs they dont have or arent geared for and posts about constant rudeness, ninja'd gear, the horrible quality of the community, etc ... all centered or related to the LFG tool they have. Not to mention the 2-3 times ive posted several different threads/posts from different days which have been dismissed by some as "minority" regardless of the fact its the same exact concerns we're bringing up here from the people in the very game going through the very consequences you all seem to ignore or not care about just to get your precious insta-groups. But go ahead, continue to claim these are all unbased claims we all just magically pulled from no where .. there is no problem at all with xserver LFG /sarcasm.

 

I just took a closer look and guess what I found...

LOL just went on the forums and literally it says the below was posted 5 minute ago... so you went and posted that you have a problem with LFG because there was none posted in the first 15 pages... and then came here and said you found a post saying LFG was horrid for WoW...

 

You sire get the prize for the most ingenious use of douchebaggery on this thread!!

 

From the WOW boards posted less than 5 mins before your post here:

 

Stop giving people special rewards for nothing. The LFG system is a big part of this problem. You give people free points, mounts, pets, potions, gold, everything, just for pushing a freaking button. I get that the LFG system is there to remove the old problem of spending three days tryig to find a group for something using the LFG chat channel, but for the love of god, stop giving people free loot for doing NOTHING. It removes any sense of accomplishment in this game

.

 

ROFLMAO>.. think I am done here... this one just completely takes the cake!

By god if I can not find a post that supports my wrong headed and completely false claims I will make one and then go to a different game board and tell you there is one!!!!!!

 

You win sir, I bow to your elite sneaky sneaky skills!

 

Oh and I am still waiting on some kind of proof that LFG destroyed WOW... I have my proof your wrong... 10.2 million subs at last count on Feb 9th per the official Blizzard press release... where sir is your proof that those 10.2 million people actually are lying and not able to play WoW because "LFG destroyed it" Where is your proof that the servers are all shut down and the game no longer exists all because LFG destroyed it?

 

 

/thread

Edited May 2, 2012 by Jaxarale

[MasterKayote]

These tools are coming. Same server will be first. It will help, but be unsuccessful. Then x-server will come, and it will be hugely successful and used by a good portion of the playerbase. Stawman arguments, logical fallacies, and whatevever other mumbo-jumbo you want to throw around to appear intelligent aside.

 

Nice predictions ... let me guess ... all you have to go by is WoW's failed attempts at a same server LFG tool which had a horrible interface, bad matching system, and offered no reward? You know, the one no one even used? Or maybe Rift? Hmm, wierd, I was able to find groups in that one in my server (Alsbeth?) ... maybe not 15 minutes but 30-45 (pre-end game!).

 

Or are you using some magical power of prediction none of us have?

 

Ooo can I try!?

 

Same server LFG is coming! Along with free transfers we will all be able to find group in a timely manner and still have a thriving community even better than the one we have now and of MUCH better quality than the steaming pile a turd currently infesting WoW.

 

P.S: How about you open a thesaurus. Just because hes accurately calling out every fallacious argument youre all making doesnt make him a dbag. Dismissing claims of the negative effects the xserver has and making magical predictions about whats going to happen because things arent going your way arent effective ways to form arguments.

[Gimixes]

Did you overlook my point.."Not to the degree hardcore gamers do"...or only see the parts you wanted to see? The LFR tool in WoW lets the casual gamers do the end game content and rewards them with 384 - 390 level gear. Which is a little better than the 378 5 man heroic gear but not as good as the normal Dragon Soul raid gear ( 397 - 403) or the heroic Dragon Soul raid gear ( 403 - 411 ). I am sure this is not that hard to understand..

 

I fully understand, but....see 3 pugs and 22 guildies doing LFR...boss down. loot drops..

21 guildies rolling need for the one guildy..see my point why i am against x-server.

people are greedy, rude, selfish, annoying f.. ups.

 

And that kind of stuff keeps going and gping till next patch..why next patch?

Why no hotfix?

Those kind of people will find a new flaw they can abuse.

And you know what people say "everyone is entitled to everything when it comes to loot"

Look how people behave..

[Andryah]

The biggest gripe really isn't community...to me that's crap. You have a chance to meet more people cross server then you do in your server. The biggest gripe is it takes away the communities ability to police itself in its groups. Say bob is a huge troll. always pulls wrong stuff, gets team wiped over and over, generally just doesn't give a rip. In the system now, the community has the ability to just not invite him to a group. He learns and either changes or leaves. LFG tool basically allows bob to troll as much as he wants and just reque up. that gripe i can definitely understand.

 

Accurate, objective, and spot on.

 

Cross server LFG provides the anonymity and non-accountability that bad behaving players crave and thrive in. Sad, but true. Hence it enables a small number of people to negatively impact the in game enjoyment of a large number of other people. So, from a practical standpoint, cross-server-LFG imposes a griefing environment on players where one does not exist in same server LFG (simply because your bad rep is easy to track and communicate such that you are out of business on your griefing very quickly).

[MasterKayote]

WoW is extra popular. Therefor a lot of morons, trolls, ninjas and such. Right now SWTOR is dying. We don't have a problem with morons and trolls - we have a problem with inability to group at all on low-pop servers. And even on decent-pop servers, when you want to do FP, and there are no tanks (heals etc) of your level on the Fleet.

 

Those are:

Population problems of not having enough players in game to do anything. Incoming free transfers and/or (hopefully soon after) server merges will solve this issue.

Convenience/boredom problems of having to sit still in Fleet to spam General. Same server LFG which autogroups fixes this.

Location problems trying to find players which could be in many different locations, some possibly not even paying attention to the chat channels while they are questing. Same server LFG which autogroups fixes this.

 

None of those require an xserver LFG tool. Community stays in tact.

[DarthTHC]

Accurate, objective, and spot on.

 

Cross server LFG provides the anonymity and non-accountability that bad behaving players crave and thrive in. Sad, but true. Hence it enables a small number of people to negatively impact the in game enjoyment of a large number of other people. So, from a practical standpoint, cross-server-LFG imposes a griefing environment on players where one does not exist in same server LFG (simply because your bad rep is easy to track and communicate such that you are out of business on your griefing very quickly).

 

If you think griefing doesn't exist in groups in SWTOR today, you are either extraordinarily lucky or you don't group.

[DarthTHC]

Community stays in tact.

 

What community?

 

I play on an RP server. Every once in a while I see a couple people role-playing.

 

I see guilds doing their own thing.

 

I see people spamming item sales pretty rarely.

 

I see people spamming for group occasionally.

 

The role-players and guilds are cliques - small groups doing their own thing. That's not a community.

 

The spammers are spammers. That's not a community.

 

Where is this magical "community" you are so concerned about being broken?

[Ignobull]

If you are looking to be social, roll a tank and say "tank lfg anything" in general, you will make lots of friends. There is also an option of joining a guild, but joining the right guild is important, try asking in general "looking for active social guild".

 

For the LFG tool I would like to see an ability to vote for MVP, this MVP will get something extra. This encourages good social behavior and people trying a bit harder without socially stigmatizing them.

 

I understand that some people think that a lfg tool will destroy community. The problem with this argument is that it is not considering the type of people that use the LFG tool. The lfg tool is for people who are not social, these people are the majority and are currently not enjoying the content in the game. Currently there is only a small community of players who regularly group up, for the majority of players who do not actively play to be social lfg tool will improve game enjoyment.

[BoneEater]

OP needs a medal.

[Andryah]

If you think griefing doesn't exist in groups in SWTOR today, you are either extraordinarily lucky or you don't group.

 

Silly boy. I never said that. What I said was that cross server LFG is a haven for griefers, NOT that it is the only form of griefing in groups.

 

The point is, some of the worst forms of persistent in group griefing comes to groups through the cross server feature of an LFG system. It's candy for sociopaths.

Edited May 2, 2012 by Andryah

[Underverce]

WoW is extra popular. Therefor a lot of morons, trolls, ninjas and such. Right now SWTOR is dying. We don't have a problem with morons and trolls - we have a problem with inability to group at all on low-pop servers. And even on decent-pop servers, when you want to do FP, and there are no tanks (heals etc) of your level on the Fleet.

 

Exactly how I feel. I'm NOT a fan of cross-server anything, with the exception of rated PVP, and I'm not an avid PVPer until there is absolutely NO PVE content left to do. However, I'm also not a fan of seeing an MMO I was hyped up over for 3+ years turn out to be EA's new cash cow instead of Bioware's amazing MMO. Capitalism is evil. (So is The Sims. What were you thinking Bioware?)

 

Having tried 3 servers now, I am currently on Harbinger for the almost decent population. After about level 20-25, you won't be grouping for much of anything even there. On MULTIPLE occasions, while looking for groups on various planets, literal hate conversations have popped up in general about how grouping and heroics are useless and a horrible waste of time and to basically shut up and go about my business. This is the "community" we have now in a nutshell.

 

I've been gaming since Atari came out. I remember waiting in line at K-Mart for hours as a child the day it came out. I've played every major MMO ever made. Yes, until Wrath I was an avid WOWer and even after I disbanded my raiding guild in early Cata I continued to TRY to play. For all it's ups and downs, the LFG tool definitely kept me around longer than I would have stayed during that fail.

 

Personally, I hate not being able to screen players at end game, but during leveling I don't really care if the guys I group with are morons. 95% of humans tend to be morons for at least a few moments every day anyway, and it isn't endgame so who cares. I DO, however, LOVE to see content and experience great immersion. I see two major problems, though.

 

First is the immersion level itself. Rather, the lack of immersion. Space barring cut scenes is not immersion. Taking a small group into enemy territory to dungeon crawl through a twisting maze of castle or cave, after it took you 20 minutes to even get there, while getting your *** kicked every step of the way, IS immersion. Open worlds without rails where there are benefits to exploring IS immersion. A wall of mountains that stretches from one end of the zone to the other with paths in between IS NOT immersion. But I digress.

 

The other is the elitist coming out of me. There just is NOT any real sense of accomplishment to doing the group material. The rewards are mediocre at best. Commendations can be acquired while soloing. The group content itself is stupid easy. This is what happens when a company like EA, who cares only about the bottom line and not the game itself, invades your RPG company. Stop blaming Blizzard and give credit where credit is due. Read some of the crap EA has posted about player base, surveys, and forums. It all comes back to WHAT MAKES THEM THE MOST MONEY, not what keeps a game ENJOYABLE and CHALLENGING.

 

Why do we need a cross server LFG? Because EA is run by accountants and not game developers. Plain and simple. (And also because the general population, who honestly SUCK at video gaming, all wanted to be cool raiders until they found out it was HARD WORK and whined until "gamer" content became "people" content. I'm no good at basketball, rather than demand they make it easier I just don't play...) With the profit view in mind, the above two issues will never be addressed, and there will not be enough interest in doing multi-player content to fill a group even on a densely populated server with any reliability. Which leaves you with the LFG tool.

 

Now you can see where the hate comes from. We SHOULDN'T need one and we really don't WANT one, but we want to experience the game we payed for, and experience it intelligently.

[Lokai]

i dont think people hate the tool as much as cross server tool, and it basically comes down to the following.

 

1: if i dont have to see these people again, why should i care about them? why should i give two @!$ about them? i can act like a tool and no one will care... because 9/10 i will never see these people again.

 

2: Cross server lfg creates a unity gap...back in the old days you created friends, and guilds sometimes sheerly based on interactions you had in a pug. This was mostly because you had to be nice, make friends, and work together to get though a zone. This created " unity " within a community.

 

3: it causes a disconnection in the community, where people no longer speak or talk(unless it is to troll) and basically just hit lfg do there daily and log off... this disconnection often times creates what appears like a dead server when it is often pretty active....

 

It isn't the tool itself as much as cross server tools that create disconnections, and can destroy a community. I know some people are like " but my server is small" then reroll or transfer...cross server is and will be death of this game.

[ferroz]

You your "your cronies" are constantly dismissing the effects the xserver has as if we all just came together and fabricated this out of thin air

The top 3 religions in the world all have 900 billion or more followers each (.9, 1.5 and 2.1 followers, respectively), and they have antithetical beliefs. Having a lot of people believe a particular delusion doesn't make it true.

 

the fact is: there are a lot of people who believe the cross server grouping is responsible for problems, even though the reality is that those issues predate cross server grouping by as much as a decade and had been trending worse immediately prior to the introduction of the lfd tool...

 

So far, you've given 0 actual evidence to support that. You need to provide an actual explanation... just saying "lots of us are deluded" isn't helping your case.

 

No one on our side is saying it wont allow you to do "group content while leveling" we're saying you can also do it with same server.

No, the reality is that the content will become unused over time; the midlevel flashpoints are almost totally unused on all but the top couple of servers, for example.

 

Xserver is not just the best answer... it's the only answer.

Edited May 2, 2012 by ferroz

[ferroz]

Silly boy. I never said that. What I said was that cross server LFG is a haven for griefers,

So is single server lfg. And single server grouping through chat without an lfg system.

 

You either missed the point or dismissed it. Your problem there is low populations, not that there isnt a cross server tool. While xserver LFG can fix it, it comes with its own drawbacks and it doesnt solve the fact that youre still in a low pop server.

No, properly implemented it fixes all of the problems of having a low pop server that bother me. I'm able to group, do raids, meet new friends, chat with people I know, and have fun with friends any time of day or night.

 

What exact problems do you think still remain?

 

And some people are wondering why they can't get groups

No, most people know why they can't get groups... it's lack of people. For example: you're simply not going to get a group for Taral V normal together if there isn't a healer on the server who's of the level range to do it.

 

Personally, I find it kind of laughable that someone who's had posts in this thread removed for blatant trolling and insults (I actually saw several get removed as I went to report them... you get an error because the post doesn't exist at that point) is pretending that the people he's arguing with are the ones with some sort of social problem ...

Edited May 2, 2012 by ferroz

[Flain]

The biggest reason the people against a cross server LFG tool will tell you is that it ruins communities, however there is no factual basis to this opinion. Because of this, it's invalid.

 

The big question you have to ask yourself is why should a person that is not in an active guild or on an active server and one who tries and tries to get a party just so he/she can play the current content continue to subscribe to the game? It's through no fault of their own, so how do we address this problem if not with a X-LFG tool?

Edited May 2, 2012 by Flain

[KendrickX]

First is the immersion level itself. Rather, the lack of immersion. Space barring cut scenes is not immersion. Taking a small group into enemy territory to dungeon crawl through a twisting maze of castle or cave, after it took you 20 minutes to even get there, while getting your *** kicked every step of the way, IS immersion. Open worlds without rails where there are benefits to exploring IS immersion. A wall of mountains that stretches from one end of the zone to the other with paths in between IS NOT immersion. But I digress.

 

The other is the elitist coming out of me. There just is NOT any real sense of accomplishment to doing the group material. The rewards are mediocre at best. Commendations can be acquired while soloing. The group content itself is stupid easy. This is what happens when a company like EA, who cares only about the bottom line and not the game itself, invades your RPG company. Stop blaming Blizzard and give credit where credit is due. Read some of the crap EA has posted about player base, surveys, and forums. It all comes back to WHAT MAKES THEM THE MOST MONEY, not what keeps a game ENJOYABLE and CHALLENGING.

 

Yeah. Let's make 3-hour missions. Let's alienate everyone except hardcore losers, who have all the time in the world to grind through something like that. And to "explore" huge zones of nothing to find a valuable needle.

 

BTW, there is exploration in SWTOR. Search for holocrons without maps or tips. And if you are not challenged by enemies, fight several groups at once. You can create hardships for yourself, if you want them.

 

As for group material, there are nice rewards (new gear - new looks). And for me "Mission complete" is accomplishment enough. Also, I don't like to "rule in a land of heather and lack the Heather Ale."

[westraz]

my thoughts or two fold 1 it dont work, like for real it don't work, how it spoce to work is you type in your quest name and any one on that quest and has it set in there LFG tool should come up, what it do's... is not that and 2 even if it did work no one use it.. like at all so you do end up going LFG pls god some one join me

 

the first part Bio has too fix SOON! the 2 part WE have to fix WE have to use it to get it too work

[DarthTHC]

Silly boy. I never said that. What I said was that cross server LFG is a haven for griefers, NOT that it is the only form of griefing in groups.

 

The point is, some of the worst forms of persistent in group griefing comes to groups through the cross server feature of an LFG system. It's candy for sociopaths.

 

It doesn't create sociopaths. Sociopaths are in the game or not now. Right now. And they're sociopathing right now.

 

The only thing X-LFG will do WRT sociopaths is get you into groups with them more frequently. But it will also get you into groups with really good, friendly people more frequently, too.

 

The percentage of sociopaths to good people will remain the same. Only the frequency with which you encounter them will change, because you'll get more groups more often.

 

If you're afraid of encountering a few sociopaths, maybe you shouldn't MMO?

Edited May 2, 2012 by DarthTHC

[Darkulous]

It doesn't create sociopaths. Sociopaths are in the game or not now. Right now. And they're sociopathing right now.

 

The only thing X-LFG will do WRT sociopaths is get you into groups with them more frequently. But it will also get you into groups with really good, friendly people more frequently, too.

 

The percentage of sociopaths to good people will remain the same. Only the frequency with which you encounter them will change, because you'll get more groups more often.

 

If you're afraid of encountering a few sociopaths, maybe you shouldn't MMO?

 

Exactly.

 

The X-LFD tool does one thing, bring people who want to group up together. That's a fact, not an opinion. Also, if people fear interacting with so called "sociopaths," than don't use the Tool.