Optimising Your PvP Gear

[L-RANDLE]

It would be nice if you justified why you were stacking Surge and Crit so high, most of the math done prior to 1.2 suggested that the break-point to switch to Power was considerably lower than you're suggesting. It would be nice to see an explanation of why those are the magic numbers instead of just stating that they are.

 

The break point is in the 200 to 300 range..

http://www.jedilace.com/2012/02/01/when-is-too-much-surge-bad-for-digestion/

 

The break point for crit is much higher.. I would say the 800-1000 range, but is hard to get to without a ton of useless stats.

http://www.jedilace.com/2012/02/03/calculating-critical-hit-chance/

 

 

Overall POWER is the end all, be all for my class(DPS/HEAL) because we have a crit talent, and the damage scale is linear. So for a DPS, stack power, then surge(to a 300 range due to cap), and get trinks/ use talents to improve crit percentage(as max chance is around 40%, which is not much different from 20%-30% due to cap and talents), then defensive.

Edited May 1, 2012 by L-RANDLE

[Rabbitfoot]

Hey Guys,

 

I have a new feature up at mmo-mechanics.com on how to optimise your PvP gear using the mods available in the gear for your class and the enhancements from any other class' gear. Head over and check it out. Let me know what you think, and, as always, questions and comments are welcome. Enjoy!

 

--Starr

 

Thanks for post! Can you please show the math behind these numbers? pre 1.2 it was 200 surge and 400 crit rating. What has changed? (Yes I know more of every stat but still be interesting to see numbers.)

Edited May 1, 2012 by Rabbitfoot

[Omnistarr]

One of the assertions you make is that "more endurance is always better than less." Can you elaborate on this? I would think that there could be value to trading off some HP for even more damage output.

 

Also: nothing wrong with being mathy. Be mathy if you feel mathy. You can always write a tl;dr version after.

 

The idea behind that one is really to discourage the "IMMA MAX MY DPS BRO!" sort of approach one finds in PvE. Because in PvP, that approach really isn't optimal. Sure, you can do it if you want, but you'll be putting yourself at a disadvantage. The idea being that even if you're not doing max DPS, you're alive longer, giving your opponent the time to make a mistake, or your healer the time to get some love headed your way. More than anything, though, how much HP you're comfortable with has to do with your playstyle. But, as a general rule, if you can get more HP, you should. Because, generally, you don't have to give up much in the way of other stats for it. I hope that made sense. Thanks for reading!

[Omnistarr]

The break point is in the 200 to 300 range..

http://www.jedilace.com/2012/02/01/when-is-too-much-surge-bad-for-digestion/

 

The break point for crit is much higher.. I would say the 800-1000 range, but is hard to get to without a ton of useless stats.

http://www.jedilace.com/2012/02/03/calculating-critical-hit-chance/

 

 

Overall POWER is the end all, be all for my class(DPS/HEAL) because we have a crit talent, and the damage scale is linear. So for a DPS, stack power, then surge(to a 300 range due to cap), and get trinks/ use talents to improve crit percentage(as max chance is around 40%, which is not much different from 20%-30% due to cap and talents), then defensive.

 

Well put. I should probably comment on this, though since I've been asked to a few times lol.

 

GRAPH

 

Here's the deal: we stop at ≈300 Surge because it's at the very tippy-top of the benefit return curve. If we put any more into it, it wouldn't yield enough to justify doing so. We stop at ≈450 Crit (if not less) because the point is more or less in the middle of the "bow" of the function. Now, what do you notice about Power and MainStat Power and Critical? That's right, they're linear. Meaning that once you've achieved an "optimal" amount of stats whose benefit functions increase exponentially, you switch to the linear stuff. In this case, that's Power, MainStat, and Endurance (although I didn't include it in the graph). I think that should just about do it

[Hotbox]

Look all you do is modify the gear so you sit at about :

 

450-500 power

32-35% crit

74-76% surge

Expertise at about 500 or so with a burst using adrenals.

 

Do that and you'll melt anyone, no matter the spec, gear or class. You can use any mix of gear or buffs so its all problematic. Once you get one stat at the 'sweet spot' then start building mods into the next gear for the next stat.

[Omnistarr]

Look all you do is modify the gear so you sit at about :

 

450-500 power

32-35% crit

74-76% surge

Expertise at about 500 or so with a burst using adrenals.

 

Do that and you'll melt anyone, no matter the spec, gear or class. You can use any mix of gear or buffs so its all problematic. Once you get one stat at the 'sweet spot' then start building mods into the next gear for the next stat.

 

450-500 Power = irrelevant; it's linear and should be piled on once non-linear stats are optimised.

32-35% Crit ≈ 450 Critical Rating.

74-76% Surge ≈ 300 Surge Rating.

Expertise at 500 = irrelevant; if you're in PvP you take as much of this as you can get.

 

I appreciate you're reading my column (if you did), but I'd like to keep posts moving forward. I can make a redux on my own to reiterate my work if I want to. But, thank you for trying.

[Hotbox]

450-500 Power = irrelevant; it's linear and should be piled on once non-linear stats are optimised.

32-35% Crit ≈ 450 Critical Rating.

74-76% Surge ≈ 300 Surge Rating.

Expertise at 500 = irrelevant; if you're in PvP you take as much of this as you can get.

 

I appreciate you're reading my column (if you did), but I'd like to keep posts moving forward. I can make a redux on my own to reiterate my work if I want to. But, thank you for trying.

 

My point is that after about these stats you start to sacrifice one for another. If you go to 1000 or more expertise you are going to gimp your crit or power and frankly its best not to do that-- considering PVP expertise adrenals will pump up the number enormously and have a much larger impact than a crit or power adrenal. Jump that crit to 40% and youll gimp something else for example.

 

Bottom line is that if you go into PVP with more than 500-600 expertise base, you almost certainly gimped yourself somewhere else since the mods with expertise on them typically are stacking accuracy and are spread out across the spectrum in mods. Those stats I posted are good base stats for anyone-- and anyone can use those PVP adrenals, whereas others might be using Rakata adrenals instead of the PVP ones.

 

The devs knew this too-- notice how PVP sets have LOWER endurance on them to offset the increased protection from expertise to help balance it out and prevent unkillable toons. It's why many guys swap out some mods on BM and WH PVP sets.

 

The key to good PVP is not maxxing expertise totally but maximizing the OVERALL effect of your toon.

 

Can you stack more expertise than 600 and still hit those numbers-- yah with some careful modding and augmenting I'm sure its possible. I'm talking about on the average.

 

The rest is skill, baby.

[EbonFade]

So there are a few problems/subtleties with the original post and link. First of all, b/c it only considers battlemaster gear and not warhero gear, and the problems min/maxing with warhero gear are quite different.

 

In general the trade off is between surge and alacrity/accuracy/somethingelse (depending the class), which means in practise that you can find enhancements or mods that are identical except with one replaced by the other. Since eg alacrity is useless to me in rated pvp, I stack surge which brings it to levels that are much higher than advertised (eg I have 477 surge on my wishlist toon).

 

The primary hardship with warhero gear, is in getting crit over 300, much less to 400! Which means trading off endurance (for instance assault enhancement 26 trades off endurance for crit relative to efficient enhancement 26).

 

You can also trade off your primary stat for crit. (I believe this is always a bad idea, no matter when).. So for instance keen mod 26 vs keen mod 26a is always best served by picking the 'a' version

[EbonFade]

Bottom line is that if you go into PVP with more than 500-600 expertise base, you almost certainly gimped yourself somewhere else since the mods with expertise on them typically are stacking accuracy and are spread out across the spectrum in mods.

 

The rest is skill, baby.

 

In PvP, you always want the expertise higher than anything else. Its more important even than your primary stat. You definitely want to shoot close to ~1200.

 

This was proven on the sith warrior forums mathematically, and its not even close.

[Swarna]

What does "optimizing gear" actually mean?

 

Is it the same as maximizing damage output? If this is what you're trying to do, then where's the actual math that shows that your suggested threshold values for critical and surge rating are the ones that will allow you to reach the theoretical maximum damage with your slotting options? In the article and in this entire thread, I have not seen a shred of a mathematical approach to gearing. Everything so far looks like an entirely subjective account based on where a certain stat "feels like it starts to drop off".

 

Can you elaborate more on HOW you went about coming up with these values?

 

I'm mainly inquiring because comprehensive calculations(spreadsheets and all that) and tests done on dummies done by myself directly disagree with a few of your pointers (specifically with regards to your suggested critical rating threshold before power stacking). I've found that with BM gear options each point of power actually increases expected damage dealt to a standard non-shield tank target more than critical rating after a very low threshold of critical rating (much MUCH lower than the suggested 450) and that when you factor in anything that increase your critical chance passively or account for guaranteed crit mechanics that this "threshold" goes further down. But I'll hold off on sharing because I'm not entirely sure that maximizing expected damage is what you mean to accomplish by "optimizing gear".

Edited May 2, 2012 by Swarna

[EbonFade]

What does "optimizing gear" actually mean?

Can you elaborate more on HOW you went about coming up with these values?

 

Its a standard calculation that has been done several times over, see sith warrior forums (google) and the theorycrafting sections.

 

There isn't a sharp consensus on the exact point of DR, but its closeish to the numbers the OP listed.

[exphryl]

I think the article is a good ground work for stats. Although I disagree with Crit being where it's at. I have always preferred lower crit in favor for higher power any chance I get. But that's my play-style.

[itsmymillertime]

People who think that expertise caps at 500 for dr did not read the patch notes nor did they read up on the new gear. Almost every moddable piece has expertise except for crystals so you really cant take less expertise in favor of another stat. Seems like an unsub needs to l2p.

[AKfourtyseven]

 

 

Marauders:

I'm skipping over this one because it is completely asinine. Marauders tear through every class with varying degrees of effectiveness. The only difference between a DPS and Tank geared player is the length of time it takes the Marauder/Sentinel to kill them.

 

 

 

I have to disagree with just this based on my experience.

 

Tank spec gear is arguably at its most effective when facing a marauder, because they are almost entirely dependent on that white, weapon damage. Being able to survive and make it a war of attrition is exactly what a marauder does not want- they want to DPS you down quickly and if forced to use cd's, they dont want you alive at the end of them.

 

When i was full def spec and had tank spec gear, i saw the biggest jump in survivability when facing marauders, snipers and mercs.

 

However, i have yet to play tank spec for any length of time since 1.2, so this may be different currently.

[Omnistarr]

I really can't even answer this. I have already addressed these questions in previous posts herein, or in the column itself. I suggest you reread the column and this thread for the answer that you seek.

 

Rest assured, though, real math is at the foundation of the article. Whether one is capable of comprehending the implication of it through written word is, however, a different matter entirely.

 

What does "optimizing gear" actually mean?

 

Is it the same as maximizing damage output? If this is what you're trying to do, then where's the actual math that shows that your suggested threshold values for critical and surge rating are the ones that will allow you to reach the theoretical maximum damage with your slotting options? In the article and in this entire thread, I have not seen a shred of a mathematical approach to gearing. Everything so far looks like an entirely subjective account based on where a certain stat "feels like it starts to drop off".

 

Can you elaborate more on HOW you went about coming up with these values?

 

I'm mainly inquiring because comprehensive calculations(spreadsheets and all that) and tests done on dummies done by myself directly disagree with a few of your pointers (specifically with regards to your suggested critical rating threshold before power stacking). I've found that with BM gear options each point of power actually increases expected damage dealt to a standard non-shield tank target more than critical rating after a very low threshold of critical rating (much MUCH lower than the suggested 450) and that when you factor in anything that increase your critical chance passively or account for guaranteed crit mechanics that this "threshold" goes further down. But I'll hold off on sharing because I'm not entirely sure that maximizing expected damage is what you mean to accomplish by "optimizing gear".

[Omnistarr]

I respect your opinion although I don't share it. The cases that you've pointed out are, in fact, the reason that I chose to call tank gear "two shades shy of useless". It isn't completely useless, it just has very few uses when compared to DPS gear. This is due almost entirely to the metagame, though, and may change with time.

 

As to your experience, your claim is that your gear set is effective against 3 of 8 possible classes — that's only 37.5%. I won't doubt your claims, but I still don't see the benefit in preparing to face < 50% of the classes that you might encounter. Though, I'll admit that this may be a purely normative matter. Regarless, thank you for posting and reading!

 

 

I have to disagree with just this based on my experience.

 

Tank spec gear is arguably at its most effective when facing a marauder, because they are almost entirely dependent on that white, weapon damage. Being able to survive and make it a war of attrition is exactly what a marauder does not want- they want to DPS you down quickly and if forced to use cd's, they dont want you alive at the end of them.

 

When i was full def spec and had tank spec gear, i saw the biggest jump in survivability when facing marauders, snipers and mercs.

 

However, i have yet to play tank spec for any length of time since 1.2, so this may be different currently.

[Omnistarr]

I'm really glad that you've decided to post this! I really want players to see my article as more of a "starting point" for optimising gear. I am in no way saying that everything that I'm suggesting is the only correct way to do it. But, I am saying that I think it's a bloody good place to start. If your playstyle favors lower crit and more power, do what works for you! Good luck in Warzones and with your gear. Thanks for posting and reading.

 

I think the article is a good ground work for stats. Although I disagree with Crit being where it's at. I have always preferred lower crit in favor for higher power any chance I get. But that's my play-style.

[Swarna]

Its a standard calculation that has been done several times over, see sith warrior forums (google) and the theorycrafting sections.

 

There isn't a sharp consensus on the exact point of DR, but its closeish to the numbers the OP listed.

 

I frequent SithWarrior, alot, but have not come across any such thing. If you would care to link me to a discussion I would be much obliged.

 

The thing is, trying out different DPS simulators/spreadsheets made by members on that site for various classes has really made me wary of high crit rating thresholds. They favor power over crit at very low levels of crits.

Edited May 2, 2012 by Swarna

[AKfourtyseven]

I respect your opinion although I don't share it. The cases that you've pointed out are, in fact, the reason that I chose to call tank gear "two shades shy of useless". It isn't completely useless, it just has very few uses when compared to DPS gear. This is due almost entirely to the metagame, though, and may change with time.

 

As to your experience, your claim is that your gear set is effective against 3 of 8 possible classes — that's only 37.5%. I won't doubt your claims, but I still don't see the benefit in preparing to face < 50% of the classes that you might encounter. Though, I'll admit that this may be a purely normative matter. Regarless, thank you for posting and reading!

 

Np.

 

I'd like to add i found your links very useful personally in helping me with my current gear optimisation. Im now playing my DPS spec Guardian since my tank spec Jugg is on a dead server. I actually dont disagree with your overall view that tank spec gear isnt nearly as effective as it should be (which is why i often wore a DPS set on my Jugg).

 

I just feel tank gear may have a place in the current climate of PvP where marauders are the big bully on the block. A case of arming yourself against the most potent threat (but i strongly believe a GRD/Jugg still needs to carry a DPS set).

[Omnistarr]

An absolutely fair point about the War Hero gear. I decided to do Battlemaster now because I think that there are a lot of people that are grinding for their War Hero gear and it will serve as a good source for fresh 50s (or alts) just getting in to their BM gear. I do plan on doing a similar sort of post for War Hero gear, but at this point it's not looking like it will be necessary. Since, BioWare seems to have put all of their "good itemisation mojo" into War Hero lol. But, as it becomes more common in PvP, I'll revisit the idea and see where it goes.

 

I completely agree with your other two points. Again, if you find that something works better for you, use it. My article is more of a "starting point" for optimisation since what is "better" can be subjective to a degree. Thank you for reading and posting!

 

So there are a few problems/subtleties with the original post and link. First of all, b/c it only considers battlemaster gear and not warhero gear, and the problems min/maxing with warhero gear are quite different.

 

In general the trade off is between surge and alacrity/accuracy/somethingelse (depending the class), which means in practise that you can find enhancements or mods that are identical except with one replaced by the other. Since eg alacrity is useless to me in rated pvp, I stack surge which brings it to levels that are much higher than advertised (eg I have 477 surge on my wishlist toon).

 

The primary hardship with warhero gear, is in getting crit over 300, much less to 400! Which means trading off endurance (for instance assault enhancement 26 trades off endurance for crit relative to efficient enhancement 26).

 

You can also trade off your primary stat for crit. (I believe this is always a bad idea, no matter when).. So for instance keen mod 26 vs keen mod 26a is always best served by picking the 'a' version

[Omnistarr]

Now this, I completely agree with. I wish that tank gear had as much potency in PvP as DPS gear does. What's more, I think that it's a shame that PvP tanks (in tank gear) are relegated to "counter-bullies", as it were. I do agree with you on the topic of Marauders/Sentinels. Tank gear certainly doesn't counter them (and I don't think that you were insinuating that it did), but it can slow them down.

 

I suppose that my big beef with tank PvP gear is that it turns the player into something of a one-trick pony, if you like. That is, all they're going to be good for is soaking up damage and taunting. Whereas, wearing DPS gear, one can accomplish the same thing with strikingly similar effectiveness whilst retaining the ability to deal substantially more outgoing damage. I hope that made sense; it's about bedtime for me and I tend to get a bit discombobulated when I'm sleepy lol. Thanks again for discussing and reading. I think that you've helped me understand my own position on tank gear a bit better and I'll be sure to change the article accordingly.

 

Np.

 

I'd like to add i found your links very useful personally in helping me with my current gear optimisation. Im now playing my DPS spec Guardian since my tank spec Jugg is on a dead server. I actually dont disagree with your overall view that tank spec gear isnt nearly as effective as it should be (which is why i often wore a DPS set on my Jugg).

 

I just feel tank gear may have a place in the current climate of PvP where marauders are the big bully on the block. A case of arming yourself against the most potent threat (but i strongly believe a GRD/Jugg still needs to carry a DPS set).

Edited May 2, 2012 by Omnistarr

[Omnistarr]

I would suggest that you stop looking for the answers and find your own, mate. That is, find what you're comfortable with as crit rating is concerned. What do you think is too little, too much, or just enough? That's what I really want players to do after reading my article. You don't have to agree with me (and many seem not to ), but I hope to provide the first stepping stone, as it were. After that, each player has to decide what he/she is comfortable with.

 

So, I'm going to ask you: what do you think is too much or too little crit?

 

I frequent SithWarrior, alot, but have not come across any such thing. If you would care to link me to a discussion I would be much obliged.

 

The thing is, trying out different DPS simulators/spreadsheets made by members on that site for various classes has really made me wary of high crit rating thresholds. They favor power over crit at very low levels of crits.

[Swarna]

Rest assured, though, real math is at the foundation of the article. Whether one is capable of comprehending the implication of it through written word is, however, a different matter entirely.

 

I don't doubt that you have a mathematical basis for your values, but you haven't clearly shown work or posts with discussion on them. It's hard to just "rest assured." Even if I was a beginner Battlemaster, I'd still want to see EXACTLY where you drew your numbers from. Maybe it's just me, though. The SW forums have a lot of stuff in it that I look at regularly. I don't see where you got such a high suggested value for crit rating from, especially when nearly all DPS simulators I tried out made by members on that site yield better results when stacking power even at very low levels of crit in BM gear. Not that I use simulators those as my only basis for itemization (I do my own personal work).

 

Your general tips and stat priorities are definitely good guidelines for players, it's just the crit vs power rating aspect that baffles me when everything I've observed up until this point contradicts that (even simulators from SW.com!). I'm NOT trying to be an ******e, I'm just curious. >.>

 

Edit: I'm slow at posting. lol

 

Alright, I understand that you're only creating a first "stepping stone" for players and that in no way these numbers are exact for each and every player/class/spec for maximum damage.

 

As for how much crit rating I think is too much or too little: it really depends. I'll use my most recent mathcrafting endeavor for full War Hero gear on an Annihilation Marauder (taking as much expertise as I could for every piece of gear to lower complications as I haven't tested expertise vs raw stats, yet) as an example.

 

I've concluded that I'm actually going to have 39 crit rating in full War Hero gear. The 39 is coming from the WH belt only. Crit rating directly shares a "stat slot" with power in enhancement/mod slots and additionally primary/surge in augment slots. I made a personal spreadsheet that outputs expected damage for various types of my abilities (weapon, weapon dual-wielded, force, etc) and gives them proper weightings deduced from warzone parses (bleeds make up roughly 40% of my overall damage and count as force damage, for example) to get an overall ratio for expected damage dealt for a certain gear/stat configuration. The weightings aren't concrete and are tailored to my personal gameplay but is probably similar for most Marauders. The configuration that yielded the highest expected damage ratio was the one with 2 crit enhancements/mods(rest being power ones) without accounting for passive bleed crit chance in Juyp form and guaranteed crit ticks from Berserk. After accounting for the above 2 (using Berserk off CD always), it became the configuration with no crit rating at all. I should also mention that this spreadsheet uses a standard Sage/Sorcerer as the target and not a shield-wielding tank (in which case crit would get a little more favorable as critical hits take precedence over shield procs).

 

By no means is this example of an extremely low crit rating optimal for everyone and every spec (it's also limited to gearing only with War Hero accessories/mods/enhancements and absolutely no mixing with crafted/PVE stuff) but I've seen a common pattern when utilizing DPS simulators for both Marauders and other classes with similar gearing conditions. The importance of crit rating varies, but not by much. It's always low (which is what made me bat an eye at the suggested 450). One of the classes that favor crit rating more than some others is the Marksmanship Sniper, probably due to having a low amount of passive crit-enhancement and because Ambush procs being reliant on crits. I heavily doubt that 450 crit would in any way be optimal for it, though.

Edited May 2, 2012 by Swarna

[Rabbitfoot]

I would suggest that you stop looking for the answers and find your own, mate. That is, find what you're comfortable with as crit rating is concerned. What do you think is too little, too much, or just enough? That's what I really want players to do after reading my article. You don't have to agree with me (and many seem not to ), but I hope to provide the first stepping stone, as it were. After that, each player has to decide what he/she is comfortable with.

 

So, I'm going to ask you: what do you think is too much or too little crit?

 

Yea Id like some links as well cause I cant find them and I have looked.

 

"Rest assured, though, real math is at the foundation of the article. Whether one is capable of comprehending the implication of it through written word is, however, a different matter entirely."

- Yes you are right we are too stupid to understand.

Edited May 2, 2012 by Rabbitfoot

[Hotbox]

In PvP, you always want the expertise higher than anything else. Its more important even than your primary stat. You definitely want to shoot close to ~1200.

 

This was proven on the sith warrior forums mathematically, and its not even close.

 

It's wrong- UNLESS you are totally stacking tank. Why? Because the 'defense' stat is mathematically under-powered, hence the reason stacking the hell out of it doesn't work all that well. Shields and absorb is limited by the percentage of the proc. With DPS or CC the game changes substantially since ALL the other stats come into play and combine to make a much more powerful toon.

 

Although statistically it's correct, you're role in PVP as a tank is quite different than any other class,-- essentially surviveability and protection of other players. If you are going one vs one with another player eventually you run out of cooldowns (this is doubly true now that you can only use one health pack per fight), whereas in WZ's eventually a second or third player will come along to cap the guy you are fighting.

 

You can, in theory, optimize a toon a lot of different ways, but the key is to optimize it to your class/playstyle. Stacking the hell out of expertise on a healing Operative means either your heals won't off as fast, or won't 'pop' with enough power to offset the massive burst damage of some toons.

 

I'm to trying to say this: it's not always all about expertise stacked to the moon.