Assassin deception pve dps needs big buff

[murshawursha]

All assassin dps is bad? No. Survivability is a bit low, that I agree with. DECEPTION DPS is terrible. arguably the worst spec for dps inthe game; however, madness is quite powerful. I consistently pull numbers upwards of 1400 and since I got my main hand and all BiS I'm pushing 1500 on most fights in HM EC and if I do something like Nightmare Karagga on weekends I push 1800. Is this as much as marauders or snipers? No, it's not, but it is close. And not to mention madness is INCREDIBLY powerful in pvp. Consistent damage and your DoTs heal you for 2% every time they crit? It's not as weak as the people that cant play it say it to be.

 

That's the problem though. I don't WANT to play a DoT spec. I want to hit things with my lightsaber. That's the whole damn reason I rolled an assassin, and to be told "Sorry, that tree just isn't viable, juts change specs," is not cool. The Madness playstyle doesn't appeal to me at all.

[ShadowMudkip]

Deception is tuned perfectly for PvP in the way it operates around high burst DPS.

 

However, there is a number of PvE fights favorable to high burst DPS specs like Deception. Fabricator, SOA, Tanks in EC, Kephess Bombers.

 

You cannot increase Deceptions damage, without causing issues in PvP with Deceptions turning into Pre-Nerf Operatives.

 

lol perfectly tuned for pvp. your comment might have been before 1.3 so i wont hold you accountable but with the recent nerfs to WZ adrenals and relics along wih regualr adrenals unusable in WZ's Deception assassins cant pull crap in pvp. I switched to madness and did twice as much damage in pvp so i would say madness is made for pvp. the reason operatives were OP was becasue they could defeat an opponent before they could get up. They're burst was frontloaded ours is backloaded meaning it takes a few seconds to set ours up.

Edited July 23, 2012 by ShadowMudkip

[ShadowMudkip]

I was content to just read this thread and not even bother logging in until I saw this post........

 

How many times were you dropped as a kid?......

 

So Deception WAS NOT designed for PVE dps?.......thats what your saying? So if I want to do PVE DPS I should roll MADNESS????.......thats the tree designed for PVE DPS?..........

 

Its posts like this that confirm the fact that America is spiraling into oblivion.....

 

 

FIRST OFF: The devs just went on a rant about how the Assassins were too powerful, they are supposed to be a high burst hit and run class..........we aren't......

 

our burst is low, a concealment op puts us to shame, our hit and run is non existant, I can force cloak out every 2 minutes WITH deception talents....I think the conceal operative is 1minute....

 

And how is it justified that Marauders should do insane DPS over Sins because they can only spec DPS?

 

They have INSANE defensive cool downs, Bloodlust, and a damage meter that puts every other DPS in a raid to shame.......

 

 

We DPS sins on the other hand flail a wet noodle around the raid.........oh that reminds me, your part about saying how "if you want the utility of an assassin" .............

 

 

Juggernauts cost to change from DPS stance to Tank: 0 Rage (INSTANT CAST)

Assassin cost to change from DPS to Tank stance: 100 FORCE (thats your entire bar for slow kids)

 

And even then, You dont have a shield generator in your offhand, your going to be pummeled and dead before the main tank is up (not literally, but the comparison is accurate enough, get over it)

 

 

Assassins are a JOKE, our DPS by comparison to other classes has been horrible since release, its the reason my Sin has been a daily mule and thats about it for the last 4 months. Everytime I run him through a raid or Mox meter him in fleet he goes right back to retirement status...........my Vengeance Jug even slaughters him, I wont even begin to talk about what my Sniper makes my Sin look like, as both Deception and Madness.

 

thank you for putting everything i could ever say about deception for me

Edited July 23, 2012 by ShadowMudkip

[Sarenne]

^ This

 

Why would anybody want an assassin in their raid? Squishy, no gap closer and bottom-of-the-barrel DPS. And melee to boot, let's not forget the melee-unfriendly combat mechanisms of many encounters in ops. We're worse than useless we're a liability.

[GeneralShade]

Is deception dps (compared to other classes) really that bad at top end? Does anyone have any parses from highly geared/skilled deception assassins? My assassin is in mostly columi (no augs) so I don't know what we are capable in top end gear.

 

I'm doing about 1100k dps on my ship dummy, but my similarly geared arsenal merc and vigilance guardian do about the same amount of damage. I would really like to see some parses from some geared a assassins to see if maybe it is just a scaling thing, because at my gear level deception is on par with 2 of my other classes.

[Hvezdy]

I have fully remoded campaign gear and Deception is really I mean REALLY weak compared to Madness or Darkness/Madness hybrid specc. And even those speccs are REALLY weak compared to my rakata/campaign marauder which parses 300-400 dps more.

[ShadowMudkip]

^ This

 

Why would anybody want an assassin in their raid? Squishy, no gap closer and bottom-of-the-barrel DPS. And melee to boot, let's not forget the melee-unfriendly combat mechanisms of many encounters in ops. We're worse than useless we're a liability.

 

I agree partially, we do have a gap closer (force speed), but i wouldnt call us a liability. We do have bad dps currently, but we arent bad enough to be called a liability. But that is my opinion.

[Hard_Head]

So what's Bioware's take on this? Do they feel that the assassin (deception) is right where they want it to be or are they going to balance it and make my toon worth playing?

[Xinika]

So what's Bioware's take on this? Do they feel that the assassin (deception) is right where they want it to be or are they going to balance it and make my toon worth playing?

 

Some people "get it" and others don't. Apparently all of you qqing about Deception need to "L2p".

 

- Developer's words.

[Astarica]

Some people "get it" and others don't. Apparently all of you qqing about Deception need to "L2p".

 

- Developer's words.

 

It's more like "Not everyone can be a winner in life. Someone has to be the loser".

[Rhaphael]

The easiest way to fix Deception is to change the talent Charge Mastery from giving 9% Armor Penetration to 20% Armor Penetration. That should increase damage by enough without needing to change any other talents/skills.

 

Marauders have 20% AP with the talent Shii-Cho Mastery, so there's no reason not to allow it for Deception too.

[Werdan]

The easiest way to fix Deception is to change the talent Charge Mastery from giving 9% Armor Penetration to 20% Armor Penetration. That should increase damage by enough without needing to change any other talents/skills.

 

Marauders have 20% AP with the talent Shii-Cho Mastery, so there's no reason not to allow it for Deception too.

 

Armor pen, in and of itself, isn't enough. Even going from 9-20% would only net about a 3% damage boost in total. IMO the spec isn't all that terrible save for some odd skills that could be moved around (to other trees perhaps) and others that need to be reworked. Some examples could be:

 

-Deception is a fairly "speedy" spec. I'd like to see the Force Speed skills from Lightning Recovery and Disjunction moved over from the Darkness tree to reinforce that sense of speed.

 

-Insulation needs a buff period. Enough to get us to ~30% damage reduction before picking up Sith Defiance. For an off tank we are extremely squishy. My Mercenary can probably off tank better than Deception spec and he has 31ish% in heavy armor.

 

-Duplicity needs a total overhaul. First off, the proc chance could use a boost to perhaps 15/30/45%. Secondly, instead of the proc giving half cost and 50% armor pen on the next Maul, change it so that it's good for EVERY Maul used within the proc timer (currently 10s). Reduce the proc duration to 6-7.5s and keep the time between procs at 10s.

 

-Along those same lines, it would be nice to have a skill that gives a chance to remove the directional requirement for Maul for a short period. More on this later.

 

-Darkswell and Deceptive power can probably be combined into one skill for the same cost. If made into a 2pt skill have it also increase Dark Embrace to last 8-9s.

 

-Saber Conduit has a pretty hefty price for a mediocre skill. 100% chance to gain force on an attack that has a 25% proc chance and only every 10s. Make this a 2 point skill (50/100% chance) and reduce the time between procs to every 6s.

 

-Entropic Field...what a waste of points IMO. What makes it worse is that it's so high up the tree. I'd just as soon trade this for Unearthed Knowledge from the Madness tree which fits better with Deception style of play (mostly melee).

 

-Resourcefulness just doesn't make any sense for Deception. Lacerate is used more in Darkness spec (to proc Energize) and Overcharge Saber (OS) still relies on Surging Charge low proc rate. I'd like to see this changed to a 5/10 point reduction for Maul and probably a better OS buff. A nice buff would be to remove the directional requirement of Maul while OS is active but remove the CD reduction of OS.

 

-Static Charge needs to have its description fixed as it does not increase Surging Charge damage (it increases Discharge damage while in the SC stance). If you were looking to buff it I'd include SC damage as well. Otherwise it's a very good skill.

 

-Low Slash and Voltaic Slash aren't bad but they are weapon damage. Perhaps modify the crit multiplier behind the scenes to try and increase crit damage or make it a skill along the lines of Induction and Claws of Decay (Madness tree).

 

If beggars were choosers I'd want it all. I know it's not goign to happen, but even a few of the above would be nice to see.

[Griad]

Argue all you want each and every spec should be viable in both PVE and PVP and only be a matter of the way you like to play your toon.

 

That is what BW needs to change, make every spec viable for all classes.

[ShadowMudkip]

Armor pen, in and of itself, isn't enough. Even going from 9-20% would only net about a 3% damage boost in total. IMO the spec isn't all that terrible save for some odd skills that could be moved around (to other trees perhaps) and others that need to be reworked. Some examples could be:

 

-Deception is a fairly "speedy" spec. I'd like to see the Force Speed skills from Lightning Recovery and Disjunction moved over from the Darkness tree to reinforce that sense of speed.

 

-Insulation needs a buff period. Enough to get us to ~30% damage reduction before picking up Sith Defiance. For an off tank we are extremely squishy. My Mercenary can probably off tank better than Deception spec and he has 31ish% in heavy armor.

 

-Duplicity needs a total overhaul. First off, the proc chance could use a boost to perhaps 15/30/45%. Secondly, instead of the proc giving half cost and 50% armor pen on the next Maul, change it so that it's good for EVERY Maul used within the proc timer (currently 10s). Reduce the proc duration to 6-7.5s and keep the time between procs at 10s.

 

-Along those same lines, it would be nice to have a skill that gives a chance to remove the directional requirement for Maul for a short period. More on this later.

 

-Darkswell and Deceptive power can probably be combined into one skill for the same cost. If made into a 2pt skill have it also increase Dark Embrace to last 8-9s.

 

-Saber Conduit has a pretty hefty price for a mediocre skill. 100% chance to gain force on an attack that has a 25% proc chance and only every 10s. Make this a 2 point skill (50/100% chance) and reduce the time between procs to every 6s.

 

-Entropic Field...what a waste of points IMO. What makes it worse is that it's so high up the tree. I'd just as soon trade this for Unearthed Knowledge from the Madness tree which fits better with Deception style of play (mostly melee).

 

-Resourcefulness just doesn't make any sense for Deception. Lacerate is used more in Darkness spec (to proc Energize) and Overcharge Saber (OS) still relies on Surging Charge low proc rate. I'd like to see this changed to a 5/10 point reduction for Maul and probably a better OS buff. A nice buff would be to remove the directional requirement of Maul while OS is active but remove the CD reduction of OS.

 

-Static Charge needs to have its description fixed as it does not increase Surging Charge damage (it increases Discharge damage while in the SC stance). If you were looking to buff it I'd include SC damage as well. Otherwise it's a very good skill.

 

-Low Slash and Voltaic Slash aren't bad but they are weapon damage. Perhaps modify the crit multiplier behind the scenes to try and increase crit damage or make it a skill along the lines of Induction and Claws of Decay (Madness tree).

 

If beggars were choosers I'd want it all. I know it's not goign to happen, but even a few of the above would be nice to see.

 

Very good suggestions. I think BW should take entropic field and change it so it increases crit chance by 5/10%. It would be far up enought to keep it out of the hands of darkness and if madness people want to make a weak hybrid build by sacrificing most of their abilities for the extra 10% so be it. Nice changes. But and the maul proc might want to be up higher or darkness tanks in pvp will take advantage and then we will be fotm.....again

[Werdan]

Very good suggestions. I think BW should take entropic field and change it so it increases crit chance by 5/10%. It would be far up enought to keep it out of the hands of darkness and if madness people want to make a weak hybrid build by sacrificing most of their abilities for the extra 10% so be it. Nice changes. But and the maul proc might want to be up higher or darkness tanks in pvp will take advantage and then we will be fotm.....again

 

TY and yes I should have mentioned that the Maul proc changes should be higher up with a change like this.

[ProKsnNwk]

All assassin dps is bad? No. Survivability is a bit low, that I agree with. DECEPTION DPS is terrible. arguably the worst spec for dps inthe game; however, madness is quite powerful. I consistently pull numbers upwards of 1400 and since I got my main hand and all BiS I'm pushing 1500 on most fights in HM EC and if I do something like Nightmare Karagga on weekends I push 1800. Is this as much as marauders or snipers? No, it's not, but it is close. And not to mention madness is INCREDIBLY powerful in pvp. Consistent damage and your DoTs heal you for 2% every time they crit? It's not as weak as the people that cant play it say it to be.

 

Yes, but Deception is also a DPS spec, but it lack a PVE abilities, that f. example MArauder has.

To boost Marauders abilites also works for PVP!!!!!!!!!!

 

Deception needs a Survivability buff both in PVP and PVE!!!!!!

 

PVP - Deception is TO SQUISHY!!!!

Make something like cleaning the DoTs with Force Cloak, etc....

 

PVE - Lack of utility abilities, and DPS!!!

More Force, and group abilities, for PVE!!!

 

Marauders have endlees Rage, and abilties which work for both PVE and PVP!!!

 

 

Marauders Cloak is SO MUCH better than Assasins!!!!

It has

- ONLY 45 SEC, CD !!!!

- 50% damage reduction!!!!

- DOES NOT BREAK ON DMG!!!!

(last 6 sec, but enough time to hide behind something,.... after that you can just use the ability that Reduc DMG for 5 sec by 99%)!!!!

 

Marauders:

have sustained (burst) DPS, Survivability, Leap! (12 sec cd), Utility (Group wise and 1 vs 1 wise), they have 2 stunns (aoe, choke), 1 root.

 

Shadows Deception:

hmm burst DPS, Squishy, Force Speed (30 sec cd) (compared to Leap it has longer CD), Utility only 1 vs 1 (no group utility), many Single Target stunns (no aoe stunns).

 

Marauders>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Shadow Deception

Camoflauge>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Force Cloak

Edited August 5, 2012 by ProKsnNwk

[ProKsnNwk]

Armor pen, in and of itself, isn't enough. Even going from 9-20% would only net about a 3% damage boost in total. IMO the spec isn't all that terrible save for some odd skills that could be moved around (to other trees perhaps) and others that need to be reworked. Some examples could be:

 

-Deception is a fairly "speedy" spec. I'd like to see the Force Speed skills from Lightning Recovery and Disjunction moved over from the Darkness tree to reinforce that sense of speed.

 

-Insulation needs a buff period. Enough to get us to ~30% damage reduction before picking up Sith Defiance. For an off tank we are extremely squishy. My Mercenary can probably off tank better than Deception spec and he has 31ish% in heavy armor.

 

-Duplicity needs a total overhaul. First off, the proc chance could use a boost to perhaps 15/30/45%. Secondly, instead of the proc giving half cost and 50% armor pen on the next Maul, change it so that it's good for EVERY Maul used within the proc timer (currently 10s). Reduce the proc duration to 6-7.5s and keep the time between procs at 10s.

 

-Along those same lines, it would be nice to have a skill that gives a chance to remove the directional requirement for Maul for a short period. More on this later.

 

-Darkswell and Deceptive power can probably be combined into one skill for the same cost. If made into a 2pt skill have it also increase Dark Embrace to last 8-9s.

 

-Saber Conduit has a pretty hefty price for a mediocre skill. 100% chance to gain force on an attack that has a 25% proc chance and only every 10s. Make this a 2 point skill (50/100% chance) and reduce the time between procs to every 6s.

 

-Entropic Field...what a waste of points IMO. What makes it worse is that it's so high up the tree. I'd just as soon trade this for Unearthed Knowledge from the Madness tree which fits better with Deception style of play (mostly melee).

 

-Resourcefulness just doesn't make any sense for Deception. Lacerate is used more in Darkness spec (to proc Energize) and Overcharge Saber (OS) still relies on Surging Charge low proc rate. I'd like to see this changed to a 5/10 point reduction for Maul and probably a better OS buff. A nice buff would be to remove the directional requirement of Maul while OS is active but remove the CD reduction of OS.

 

-Static Charge needs to have its description fixed as it does not increase Surging Charge damage (it increases Discharge damage while in the SC stance). If you were looking to buff it I'd include SC damage as well. Otherwise it's a very good skill.

 

-Low Slash and Voltaic Slash aren't bad but they are weapon damage. Perhaps modify the crit multiplier behind the scenes to try and increase crit damage or make it a skill along the lines of Induction and Claws of Decay (Madness tree).

 

If beggars were choosers I'd want it all. I know it's not goign to happen, but even a few of the above would be nice to see.

 

I think that your idea is awesome!!!

[spond]

It's funny, I've taken a couple month hiatus from this game (4) because of this issue. This is the spec I want to play, yet it just doesn't seem worth it.

 

I hope something happens soon. But with everything that's going on, maybe I just need to try a different class and get over it.

[Ravand]

Okay lets get a few things straight here, Marauders are a pure DPS class. They have only DPS specs. Only one of their specs pulls really high dps in comparison to everything else.

 

Your playing the weakest PvE spec, and asking for buffs. Really? Learn to play Madness if you want maximum PvE DPS. Deception isn't designed for that.

 

A Marauder should do more DPS then you, it's all he's got. He can't taunt and offtank, he can't stealth resurrect. He just stands there an deals damage.

 

You want all the versatility that Assassin brings, and the highest DPS available?

 

Our DPS is right in line with all other hybrids(Sorcs/Mercs/Ops) etc. If your getting outdps'd by everyone, the issue lies between the chair and the computer not the class.

 

Ok lets get ready for some troll bashing.

 

First of all, DPS spec compared with DPS spec They should be equal. Stupid arguments like You have tank spec so you should not do as much damage are invalid.

You Join a raid as DPS, people expect you to DPS.

 

Secondly, marauders have way more utility in raids than a DPS assassin. Great Group DPS buffs greater survivability. For real now... Mr Trolly You think a DPS spec assassin will taunt and off tank ? what are you smoking ?

 

Lastly Deception is not a hybrid DPS spec. Its a pure DPS spec, and if you parse you will see that it does roughly equal damage to madness. +-2%

( opposed to Assassin DPS vs Bounty hunter or marauder DPS difference of 30-50% )

 

I don't believe for a second, that your main is an assassin, most likely you are a kid, who thinks buffing this class will harm him in some way.

[spond]

Ok lets get ready for some troll bashing.

 

First of all, DPS spec compared with DPS spec They should be equal. Stupid arguments like You have tank spec so you should not do as much damage are invalid.

You Join a raid as DPS, people expect you to DPS.

 

Secondly, marauders have way more utility in raids than a DPS assassin. Great Group DPS buffs greater survivability. For real now... Mr Trolly You think a DPS spec assassin will taunt and off tank ? what are you smoking ?

 

Lastly Deception is not a hybrid DPS spec. Its a pure DPS spec, and if you parse you will see that it does roughly equal damage to madness. +-2%

( opposed to Assassin DPS vs Bounty hunter or marauder DPS difference of 30-50% )

 

I don't believe for a second, that your main is an assassin, most likely you are a kid, who thinks buffing this class will harm him in some way.

 

Wow, my main is a Sith Assassin Dec spec and it's an optimized (TESTED) build and there is NO way this class is somehow more versatile than a marauder. The only advantage a deception spec has over anyone else...... wait, wait, at least one other class has a unique trait of the assassin less all it's weakness'.

 

I only play this as my main because I want too. If I want to DPS and wreak things I use my Operative Sniper. If I want to tank, I use my Jug. Each perform the role far more effectively than the assassin (maybe darkness can hold its own on offtanking). The fact is, this class needs to have something changed for the better before people stop groaning when they see you enter the group.

 

The one positive the Dec spec assassin had was open world PVP raids with a bunch of other assassins. Group gank without anyone seeing you coming; however, this isn't really viable right now.

 

My personal suggestion for a buff would not be a very tough thing to do and would keep this class balanced:

- Reduce cooldown on Blackout by 20 - 30%

- Reduce cooldown on Force Cloak by 50% (maybe even more)

 

Why - you become the hit and run class you were supposed to and if you know how to use blackout, it solves most of the DPS issues.