To the biased Sents/Maras defending their OP class

[Kayse]

what are those proof of?

 

augment gear/biochem etc and total damage. The stats are clearly there, just need to find someone to hit them with and 5k crits are easy.

[TheEvilEeyore]

what are those proof of?

 

800k damage.. it's the best i have ever seen. and that isn't accomplished without insanely high damage numbers.

[RoyFokker]

This one is aimed at all the short-sighted Marauders/Sents that are fearful of a nerf, as that would mean they'd need to re-roll again (maybe to a PT as they seem to be doing quite well)

 

I've always said marauder/sent damage is fine, i want no changes to that, they are meant to dish out some hurt.....

What they do need is to lose the Undying rage/Guarded by the force as it is far, far too OP.

 

This is where all the biased Sents/Maras seem to completely miss the point, and they may say that "oh but thats been in the game since the start"......To this i say, yes it has, and it never should have been in the first place, it has no business being on any class, let alone a DPS one, but aside from that, the recent changes to expertise drastically lowering the TTK make this ability even more out of control.

5 seconds of complete damage immunity is stupid, especially given the amount of damage being thrown out now. You say the ability hasnt been changed, and maybe it hasnt theoretically, but its effectiveness has certainly increased with recent changes.

 

I'd say you're the biased one, you haven't learned how to deal with the abilities, so you think they need a nerf. I've been killing Sent/Mara since day one. I'm still killing them. The ability has always been easy to deal with if you actually have an ounce of ability outside of randomly smashing keys.

[lectotrans]

i will .. i have posted in several other parts of this forum with individual fights.

not whole warzoens but single encoutners vs guardians. where there are 2 5k crits.

 

guardians? who the hell is talking about guardians? this thread is about sents/maras...

[Schwarzwald]

What about endure pain? And damage being healed is damage being healed, why do you think so many marauders are annihilation with heals on bleed crits? It's a whole 2% which isn't much at all but it helps.

 

No we wouldn't, go ask a marauder to duel you without use ANY defensive CD's. Straight up NONE. See how squishy he is.

 

Tank classes in this game are fine and they have a ton of survivability. 5k annihilation crits rarely happen i have to pop EVERYTHING and get lucky, trinket, expertise adrenal is a must because the power adrenal doesn't do it, and bloodthirst. I have screens of every 5k crit i've done with annihilation since i've hit 50 on december 27th... there's under 10 of them .

 

my friend frequently 5k+ anni crits every game without the use of relic/adrenals. Sorry that you are so bad at this game and cannot drop heavy armor targets to below 50% health in 2 GCD's.

 

The heal from endure pain is just a bandaid. And its only 5k health which is absolutely nothing compared to how damage works right now.

 

The entire point of my post is that their defensive CD's are way too OP and the base damage mitigation that players get really doesn't matter. Once a heavy armor class is sundered, for all intensive purposes, they will die just as fast as any other class if you ignore defensive CD's. Endure pain will keep you alive for maybe 1-2 GCD's and are only really effective if you use the EARLY before you take a lot of damage so you can maximize the health gained.

 

The marauders can just dive in over their heads, pop their what ever the **** the ability is called before they die, take no damage, then heal back up to 25% with their hots. Thats ignoring their ability to vanish out of roots/snares.

 

You are very bad at playing a marauder if you think they are as good as a juggernaut in terms of survivability.

 

Again, you think I want to remove your classes ability to play, no I don't, I just don't think your class should be able to outlive a tank archetype when they are focus firing.

Edited April 29, 2012 by Schwarzwald

[Schwarzwald]

The huttball running was an example, you don't get to score everytime you get the ball in 10-15 seconds. i've watched immortal juggs walk the ball with multiple people on him the whole time.

 

All marauders can not vanish and remove all movement impairing effects on them.

 

I have 1 on a minute cd that lasts up to 30 seconds that gives me heavy armor. You're running around in heavy armor ALL THE TIME. Another one is only good if i get low HP and if i don't have a healer around, well i'm dead, might get to take one person with me because i was on them the whole time anyways, but i'm dead. And Camo is best use for when getting focus fired, you can always intercede away to a friendly target and a lot of the people FF'ing you will just switch targets because you're simply too far away now.

 

Those people attacking your juggernaut must have some terrible DPS then if they are unable to drop him. A scoundrel and a sentinel should be able to drop an Immo jug from 100% to dead in less then then 2 GCD's. Stop lying out your ***.

 

Also, you can cover the same amount of distance with force camo as you can with an interecede, stop being so bad at this game. The advantage with yours is that you can use it while rooted and we cannot. The only huge advantage intercede has is in huttball, but really, most good players won't let you get away if you are at low health, thats why there is this thing called ranged classes in a game. Meanwhile a marauder can go hide behind something and no one knows where he went until he is spotted again.

Edited April 29, 2012 by Schwarzwald

[Apocalypse-]

....

The marauders can just dive in over their heads, pop their what ever the **** the ability is called before they die, take no damage, then heal back up to 25% with their hots. Thats ignoring their ability to vanish out of roots/snares.

...

Ladies and gentlemen, the 31/31/31 build is OP argument. It can't be beat, because it defies reason!

[Schwarzwald]

Love posts like this. We have 4 defensive cooldowns, all of which are so easily countered by anyone with half a brain... Pop our 99% immunity? It's called CC..Cloak of pain? Don't hit for 6 seconds and just snare them. Saber ward? Use tech/force..Obsecure, notmuch you can do about it but be blind or spam force/tech attacks. Without our defensive cooldowns the class would die far too fast to even do dps. Regardless if we gt focused or cc'ed it doesnt matter how many CD's we have, we will die. Undying rage is no different, it's called knowing your enemies skillls and knowing how to counter them. Tired of seeing all the baddies qqing at those who know how to play their class..This is almost as bad as the "make tracer missile have a 15 sec cooldown" thread..

 

Oh yeah, also, one point I'm trying to make that I forgot. I wasn't talking about them being able to live while doing damage.

 

I already do those things, such as stuns, any body with a brain should be doing them. But that doesn't undo the fact that those CD's still keep them alive longer then a juggernaut.

 

in 1 1v2 situation 1 Marauder can solo defend a node in Alderaan much longer then a juggernaut would in the same situation. If you try to argue this fact you are simply a bad marauder who doesn't manage CD's properly.

[Apocalypse-]

Oh yeah, also, one point I'm trying to make that I forgot. I wasn't talking about them being able to live while doing damage.

 

I already do those things, such as stuns, any body with a brain should be doing them. But that doesn't undo the fact that those CD's still keep them alive longer then a juggernaut.

 

in 1 1v2 situation 1 Marauder can solo defend a node in Alderaan much longer then a juggernaut would in the same situation. If you try to argue this fact you are simply a bad marauder who doesn't manage CD's properly.

 

And an assassin will last twice as long as the marauder would. Your point?

[Zunayson]

If you take away our GBTF/Undying rage, then give us Taunt and AOE taunt. Other DPS Classes enjoy this ability, and I feel that it would oly be fair, since it's the difference between us and say a PT/Jugg/Shadow.

 

I'll gladly give up GBTF for the ability to taunt.

 

(most) snipers have none of your damage (Close to it), and definately NOT your survivability. Marauder damage is okay. Survivability isn't. You have a snare and a gap closer, others have snares and gap makers. Yours is even on half a cooldown (3/4, if you're talking about the sorc KB), and doesn't affect resolve. Stop talking like the fact that you're melee does anything. You already do more damage. Your survivability is too high.

 

The only thing snipers have is range and that entrench CC immunity thing. I'll glady give those up to get the insane damage of a marauder. I have a marauder, and I constantly top damage charts, but it gets annoying with the 10-49 brackets filled with FOTM Marauder rerolls, and the 50s bracket filled with assassins.

[Schwarzwald]

Ladies and gentlemen, the 31/31/31 build is OP argument. It can't be beat, because it defies reason!

 

Yes, they can vanish through roots and snares. keep denying reality. There is nothing in rage that offers then survivability besides payback, and honestly, you are a really bad marauder if you are even considering rolling Rage.

 

So please tell me, where are these skills that would require 31/31/31? Seems like you are just a bad player who doesn't think their class is OP because they are not good enough to be OP.

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#100dIrRMRbfsZGMM.1 In terms of defensive CD's The only thing this build doesn't have is the removal of snares and roots, but you can still vanish out of it, disengage from combat for a long period of time and get massive amounts of self heals. If you are not having your dot upkeep all the time then you are simply bad at your class.

 

Sort of like how I argued constantly that Rage was OP pre-1.2, which it was. But all the bad players seemed to think that the spec was still trash pre-1.2.

 

The willful ignorance here is mind blowing.

Edited April 29, 2012 by Schwarzwald

[Serrowherrow]

The marauders can just dive in over their heads, pop their what ever the **** the ability is called before they die, take no damage, then heal back up to 25% with their hots. Thats ignoring their ability to vanish out of roots/snares.

 

Ah yes, the ability to heal from annihilation, the ability to vanish out of roots from carnage, and the ability to do aoe damage from rage.

 

Yes, I agree. Nerf 31/31/31 maras!

Edited April 29, 2012 by Serrowherrow

[Schwarzwald]

Ah yes, the ability to heal from annihilation, the ability to vanish out of roots from carnage, and the ability to do aoe damage from rage.

 

Yes, I agree. Nerf 31/31/31 maras!

 

What are you talking about?

 

Care to name the Skills that would require such a distribution of points?

[Schwarzwald]

And an assassin will last twice as long as the marauder would. Your point?

 

An assassin is a tank class. /facepalm

Edited April 29, 2012 by Schwarzwald

[Apocalypse-]

Yes, they can vanish through roots and snares. keep denying reality. There is nothing in rage that offers then survivability besides payback, and honestly, you are a really bad marauder if you are even considering rolling Rage.

 

So please tell me, where are these skills that would require 31/31/31? Seems like you are just a bad player who doesn't think their class is OP because they are not good enough to be OP.

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#100dIrRMRbfsZGMM.1 In terms of defensive CD's The only thing this build doesn't have is the removal of snares and roots, but you can still vanish out of it, disengage from combat for a long period of time and get massive amounts of self heals. If you are not having your dot upkeep all the time then you are simply bad at your class.

 

Sort of like how I argued constantly that Rage was OP pre-1.2, which it was. But all the bad players seemed to think that the spec was still trash pre-1.2.

Uhh... Take that link that you just gave me. Look at the "Carnage" tree. Left talent, 3rd row from top. What's that say?

 

The willful ignorance here is mind blowing.

Oh, I agree. I definitely agree.

[Schwarzwald]

Uhh... Take that link that you just gave me. Look at the "Carnage" tree. Left talent, 3rd row from top. What's that say?

 

 

Oh, I agree. I definitely agree.

 

I said you can vanish through roots and snares. If you are going to think that my semantic error of out and through are the pinnacle of your argument as to why Sent/Mara are not OP, then I have lost all hope for humanity.

 

Not out of them. You can still vanish, remove yourself from being targeted, do your self heal.

 

Go and even attempt to intereced as a jug while rooted, see what happens.

Edited April 29, 2012 by Schwarzwald

[TetraCleric]

I laugh at people that don't use Force Camo to interrupt sniper/gunslingers. They root you 20m away, and you just stand there like an idiot getting freecasted on? Camo doesn't need to remove immobilizing effects to be effective, and if you can't comprehend that, then why do you feel you have a say in pvp discussions?

 

No wonder you can't break 200k consistently, let alone 300k often.

[Apocalypse-]

An assassin is a tank class. /facepalm

 

So? A healing op is also going to last longer than a jugg. A Sniper is going to last longer than a jugg. A smart sorc will last longer than a jugg. Your logic is illogical to base OP on ability to hold a node alone.

[Apocalypse-]

I said you can vanish through roots and snares. If you are going to think that my semantic error of out and through are the pinnacle of your argument as to why Sent/Mara are not OP, then I have lost all hope for humanity.

Not out of them. You can still vanish, remove yourself from being targeted, do your self heal.

You're not immune to AOE damage, and you know exactly where they were rooted.

 

The self heals are small, and completely removed by any decent healer cleansing dots.

 

Go and even attempt to intereced as a jug while rooted, see what happens.

Protip: Assassin, Operative, Sorc, Mara. All 4 are more capable of escaping than 2/3 tanks, as the 3rd tank is in that group. Newsflash, ESCAPE and TANK aren't a logical pairing.

[TetraCleric]

You're not immune to AOE damage, and you know exactly where they were rooted.

 

The self heals are small, and completely removed by any decent healer cleansing dots.

 

 

Protip: Assassin, Operative, Sorc, Mara. All 4 are more capable of escaping than 2/3 tanks, as the 3rd tank is in that group. Newsflash, ESCAPE and TANK aren't a logical pairing.

 

Just going to point out that Mara has more than two dots, and in a warzone, more than one person are applying dots, meaning the chances of those dots being removed from a purge are pretty slim. And with the way healing vs damage is right now, wasting multiple GCD's on a chance at getting the right dot's removed, is just going to get you killed faster.

[lectotrans]

Just going to point out that Mara has more than two dots, and in a warzone, more than one person are applying dots, meaning the chances of those dots being removed from a purge are pretty slim. And with the way healing vs damage is right now, wasting multiple GCD's on a chance at getting the right dot's removed, is just going to get you killed faster.

 

more than two dots? really? i count exactly two...rupture and deadly saber.

EDIT: that's annihilation spec by the way.

ok i just checked to make sure i wasn't missing something since i play annih spec and not carnage or rage, and there's no way to spec for more than 2 seperate dots.

Edited April 29, 2012 by lectotrans

[Schwarzwald]

So? A healing op is also going to last longer than a jugg. A Sniper is going to last longer than a jugg. A smart sorc will last longer than a jugg. Your logic is illogical to base OP on ability to hold a node alone.

 

Bioware stated (when speaking about class design) that the difference between jugs and marauders would be that Marauders would have 5% more damage output while juggernauts would have 5% more survivability.

 

This simply isn't true in the games current state. It was actually close to being true in beta, but things have changed a lot since then.

 

My point is that between the two AC's of warriors, Marauders have more damage and more survivability. I would say that jugs have better utility when properly utilized, but you can't be using it if you are a joke of a class when it comes to mitigation.

Edited April 29, 2012 by Schwarzwald

[Apocalypse-]

Bioware stated (when speaking about class design) that the difference between jugs and marauders would be that Marauders would have 5% more damage output while juggernauts would have 5% more survivability.

 

This simply isn't true in the games current state. It was actually close to being true in beta, but things have changed a lot since then.

 

My point is that between the two AC's of warriors, Marauders have more damage and more survivability. I would say that jugs have better utility when properly utilized, but you can't be using it if you are a joke of a class when it comes to mitigation.

 

So... Juggernauts are a " joke of a class", and because of this, sent/mara is overpowered? What? Mercs are underpowered therefore powertechs are overpowered? What?

 

Also, there are 3 dots, but one is a 31 point talent and another is an 11 point talent in a different tree. Please, understand the class before ranting about it. Granted, if you understood it, you wouldn't be ranting... /shrug

[Kayse]

I laugh at people that don't use Force Camo to interrupt sniper/gunslingers. They root you 20m away, and you just stand there like an idiot getting freecasted on? Camo doesn't need to remove immobilizing effects to be effective, and if you can't comprehend that, then why do you feel you have a say in pvp discussions?

 

No wonder you can't break 200k consistently, let alone 300k often.

 

is 500k consistently accepted?

 

no but really, ppl just l2p and stop complaining..every class has its weaknesses.

[Schwarzwald]

You're not immune to AOE damage, and you know exactly where they were rooted.

 

The self heals are small, and completely removed by any decent healer cleansing dots.

 

 

Protip: Assassin, Operative, Sorc, Mara. All 4 are more capable of escaping than 2/3 tanks, as the 3rd tank is in that group. Newsflash, ESCAPE and TANK aren't a logical pairing.

 

But the vanish can be used to interrupt ranged attacks on you.

 

 

Also, Stop bringing up other classes. I am comparing Maras to Jugs. Also, newsflash. I never stated that Juggernauts should have more escapes. I said they need to be better at mitigation and damage reducing abilities, and right now, Marauders abilities top anything that Jugs have.

 

Undying Rage Spends 50% of current health to grant 99% damage reduction for 5 seconds. 90s CD

 

That sounds like it can be used in every engagement and the ability is even better when you have a healer to get you back up.

 

Invincible Reduces all damage taken by 40% for 10 seconds. 180s CD

 

This can only be used a few times in a warzone, half the amount that Undying Rage could potentially be spent. And while it is nice, you will not survive focus fire from a bunch of people, unlike you would with Undying Rage.

 

 

The point I am trying to make is that when properly used marauder damage mitigating abilities are 'better' then juggernauts, and ontop of that they have really good escapes that can be activated through roots. While Juggernaut mobility/'escapes' require teammates that are in line of site and that you are not rooted. Also that Marauder damage output 100% trumps that of Juggernauts.

 

So pretty much it boils down to that Juggernauts are only more mobile when things are ideally set up and have more utility. I'm not trying to say that jugs are underpowered. I think our class is in a really good spot right now, besides the lack of damage mitigation that we have always had. Rage used to be overpowered, but that was fixed. Its time to fix Marauder abilities.