You Jedi Need a Reality Check...

[FigeroMentel]

So poisoning slaves is what? good? are you kidding me?

 

As a Jedi I have actually routed out corruption, Stopped imperial war crimes against Evocci on narshadaa, brought allies together, and destroyed superweapons... all while you what? Murder slaves and backstab eachother ot of convienece?

 

Cause I have an Inquisitor, Bounty Hunter, and a Imperial Agent and I dont know what the hell you are posting about?

 

Because the republic isnt the united fedeation of planets, we dont have a prime directive. On tython alone both consular and both Knights strengthed the relationship between the Pilgrims and the Jedi.

 

yes some lights side decisions are based on lawful stupid good, just like some darkside decisions are based on stupid evil. Like making a flesh eating monster more powerful so it can tear @#$ around the freaking sith acadamy.

 

The difference is, if I try to commit genocide as a Sith, it's a darkside choice. When I try to help the locals, it's a lightside choice. But as a jedi, helping the locals is often a darkside choice (they need to learn their own lesson, or some idiocy like that) and rooting out corruption is often considered wrong (because they're good people at heart, or something). The Jedi are nothing but tools of an unfeeling and corrupt senate. To be a Sith is to have true freedom - I can choose not to do those things you mentioned, and in fact my characters never did. My Inquisitor fought against corruption and injustice, my bounty hunter brought justice to criminals, my Warrior fought against slavery and oppression... Meanwhile, my Jedi fights for the weak and gets darkside points for it. When I destroy a threat, it's considered wrong.

[Djspyder]

The difference is, if I try to commit genocide as a Sith, it's a darkside choice. When I try to help the locals, it's a lightside choice. But as a jedi, helping the locals is often a darkside choice (they need to learn their own lesson, or some idiocy like that) and rooting out corruption is often considered wrong (because they're good people at heart, or something). The Jedi are nothing but tools of an unfeeling and corrupt senate. To be a Sith is to have true freedom - I can choose not to do those things you mentioned, and in fact my characters never did. My Inquisitor fought against corruption and injustice, my bounty hunter brought justice to criminals, my Warrior fought against slavery and oppression... Meanwhile, my Jedi fights for the weak and gets darkside points for it. When I destroy a threat, it's considered wrong.

 

 

Like i Said before can You cite specific choices... because I've Missed All of these moments You're talking about... Having completed the JK story and getting to Hoth(almost done with chapter 2) with My JC.... and the ONLY one instance where i agree with You is, on Coruscant Early on...And its not even a class quest...its a side quest... where given the choice to steal documents from the senate and expose POSSIBLE corruption OR give the "spies"

false documents, the false documents are the light side choice...

 

Other then that one instance, Helping the locals, helping others, sacrificing self have ALWAYS been Light Side choices... I know for a fact the Republic has OFTEN gotten angry(or at least displeased) with BOTH of my Knights for picking the good of the locals over the good of the republic as a whole... Or at Their idea of what would be good anyway.

 

And I've had Qyzen Get pretty mad at me too, He has a thing about helping the weak... he always seems to want me to Make them do things themselves not to just do for them...

hell he once got made at me for giving poor homeless children Credits... They were in the way of my objective... my choices were to not finish the mission, To force them to leave, or to give them credits so they could relocate to a different area, two light side choices were leave them alone, and give them credits, the ds choice Force them to leave.. I gave them credits he got pissed.

 

 

The Only thing I can think of When You say "Destroy a threat" is Killing a captured enemy... which well You're supposed to be an enforcer of justice, NOT an executioner, Look at it like being a cop... If You capture a criminal you take them in for trial... you don't shoot them in the head after they have already been disarmed.

[MAJG]

Biggest thing I've seen, Sith are all about pure power, however it's achieved. They may lower themselves to help the Empire (in fact, A republic officer actually black mailed me into helping his son).

The Sith are all about their own power and actually almost follow along the lines of natural selection, hence the brutal trials.

Jedi on the other hand, are all about themselves as a whole. I always laugh because Jedi's say don't hate but they sure don't like the Sith. The sith on the other hand as individuals don't care about the Jedi, they just kill who's in their way.

[gilfea]

Two of the four Imperial storylines have a slave rise up to become a hero based on his or her actions.

 

The Empire allows the strong to become whatever they wish. The Republic is full of noble titles and monarchies where a bloated senate makes decissions you have basically no say in. The Republic cloaks itself in words, preeches its noble and enlightened beliefs, and then works to undermine the peace and hides behind the veil of enlightenment to justify apathy toward the suffering of others.

 

Not having played all of the four Empire storylines, I am so far only aware of the Inquisitor starting out as a slave. Also, from what I know of the Inquisitor storyline,

you, and the other candidates weren't picked out to give you an opportunity; you were picked out to be a body replacement for your Master. Of course, that meant that you were to build up your (and soon to be her) power and influence with the assistance of your master because it's easier to build power and influence as a Sith Lord than a slave with no connections.

 

And since a slave has no power nor influence, and so, no strength, who in the Empire cares what happens to them anyway?

 

Also, the Empire doesn't 'allow' anyone to become whatever they wish. Power in the Empire is not given, it's taken from someone who already has it, usually by secretive and/or lethal methods. And the power/influence that you're 'given' by your Master was actually a loan with an intent to collect with a surprise interest rate.

The senate has representatives from their respective worlds who, ideally, does what they believe best for their world and for the Republic. And it seems as though many worlds have nobles and monarchies from which those representatives are selected. But even ideally, a world's representative does not have unamious support as their population does not have a homogenous mindset.

And as you said, the Republic preaches noble and enlightened beliefs; those are the goals, but the various worlds' representatives in the Senate are not homogenous either. There would be those who want to carve out a bigger piece of the pie for their world, or just for themselves. There would also be those who don't do so for the greater interest of the Republic. And since all worlds are supposed to have a voice in the Senate, to reduce the 'bloat', as you call it, would mean that some worlds would lose their voice.

On the other hand, the Empire preaches the power of strength.

Those at the bottom have no say, no freedom, no hope, subject to other's whims.

Those higher up have no say, little freedom, little hope, subject to the whims of those stronger.

 

Remember that quest on Drommund Kass where a bounty hunter was 'marking' people who then disappeared, and one of the Empire's peons wanted law, order, and justice dealt out to the bounty hunter ... except that it turned out that the bounty hunter was hired to mark random people for bored Sith to hunt?

 

Even higher up, you have those who have very little say, as much freedom and hope as meets the needs of the tasks of those stronger.

And into the Sith ranks, freedom of say (among non-Sith), and varing levels of say in matters, depending on sith rank among other sith, and as much freedom and hope as you've scared others into letting you have (for the moment).

 

Like the quest on the Sith starter world, where you interrogate a person, on behalf of the local inquisitor, for information on an unauthorized murder, only to find out that the murderer is the apprentice of a Darth more powerful than the local inquisitor, and said inquisitor initally decides that he will do nothing about the unauthorized murder, not even lay an accusation against the apprentice? And yet, the inquisitor is powerful enough to decide on a whim what happens to many there ... including whether you get his approval for your trial or death for failure.

 

So far, in my limited exposier to senate politics, I've seen a senator taking bribes from criminals,

 

Who, needed the money to finance a campaign against the previous senator who didn't care what happened to those who he was supposed to be representing. The bribed senator is also very popular among the people for the way she represents those who she's suppoed to represent. Also, when you find out, is in the process of trying to exterminate the very criminal group that funded her election campaign ... who are also creating misery for those whom she was elected to represent. Noble in intent, noble in action, corrupt in the method of acquiring her position.

 

a senator who wanted to impose slavery,

 

Who figures that slavery is needed to increase the Republic's production capacity to match the Empire's own slave driven production capacity. Who also figures that if the Republic does not increase production capacity, then they'll lose to the Empire (through attrition). In the fear of losing to the Empire, that senator lost sight of the reason he was there.

 

the forced relocation (see: deportation) of refugees

 

I don't remember this. I'll have to play one of my lowbies to see/remember this one.

 

and a political party trying to sabotage peace talks with The Empire...

 

Wrong. A small, politically motivated group that's trying to sabotage a senator's plan to have the Republic break ties with the Jedi Order, and make ties to the Sith Order. They do not have any representatives in the Senate since they're a group of individuals, not spokespeople for a world.

 

And let's not even mention the fact that the poor struggle underground while the nobels squabble in their ridiculously overblown palace.

 

A few points on this one:

The current conditions are the result of the Empire's Sacking of Corusant. While not ideal before the Sacking, it was better than the current situation.

Corusant forces are in conflict with criminal forces (who have Empire help) to secure various sections

Most of the 'squabbling' nobles are not from Corusant, who are 'squabbling' to get Republic assistance for the worlds that they are at the Senate to represent.

The Senate Building IS (in my opinion) ridiculously overblown ... but was built long ago; to blame the current senators for a building that was there before they were born, is misguided.

 

When corruption is out in the open, it's easy to see who to support and what you can do. When it's cloaked in a pretty facade, it's impossible to know who is fighting for you and who is fighting against you. At its best, it's grey and grey, at its worst The Empire is the good guy.

 

When corruption is out in the open in the Republic, and you understand the details of the situation, it's grey vs grey to see who to support and what to do. When you gloss over the details, it's impossible to know who's fighting for you, against you, or fighting on their own.

Corruption is out in the open in the Empire, but action depends less on what the right thing to do is, and more on your relative strength. And it's never clear who's fighting for you, against you, just appearing to fight for you, fighting against you just because you're in the way, or fighting on their own. Well, until you get past the agenda that they tell you about, and learn their secret agenda.

 

A member of the Empire can fight against corruption, injustice, and oppression, but they're going to step on many people's toes and make lots of enemies. That Empire member would need to be quite powerful to work against the nature of the Empire, and to fight off or scare off the enemies that they make ... I guess it's a good thing that the characters played by the players get a super fast-track to the upper echelons of power.

Edited April 30, 2012 by gilfea

[QiwiLisolet]

From what I've seen, the Jedi vs. Sith distinction (in the movies and even the Extended Universe) is less a matter of good vs. evil than it would be a matter of Locke vs. Rousseau. Jedi recognize that their Force powers do not give them any sort of moral authority over the rest of the galaxy and instead just impose that moral authority on themselves. While the SIth presume that Force powers give them the right to impose their morality on everyone else.

[Saseav]

Of course she had to fight for every opportunity - Just like anyone needs to in real life. That's not oppression, that's life.

 

The fact that a slave could rise to a seat on the Sith Council is a pretty strong case for The Sith rewarding excellence in all its forms. The Sith may keep slaves, but they allow those slaves the chance to be citizens. The Jedi on the other hand, just turn a blind eye to slavery and allow it to happen while publicly decrying it.

 

The big difference as I see it is that The Sith understand that there is good and evil, and they decide whether or not to follow either path, or a hybrid thereof. The Jedi also claim to understand good and evil... Only their understanding is that they're good, reguardless of the consequences, and their opponents are evil.

 

I think my big problem with The Jedi is that they pat themselves on the back for their ideals, even as those ideals lead to suffering. They hide behind their ideals reguardless of who gets hurt, whereas a Sith has the power to do as he or she chooses.

 

not really.

, by endgame the dark council is in ruinsthe emperor dead, at least 3 dead on corellia, without counting the ones that die in class stories, 'jadus' etc. what i mean is that anyways, Imperial leadership is now filled with enough holes that anyone could get in. Let's not forget that a lack of recruits is also why the inquisitor begins his rise to power in the first place

 

Jedi don't allow slavery, not in the republic itself at least. They however can't just start wars with the Hutt Cartel, and other empires. Arguably the only time a slave rises out of his position within the empire, is when theirs a death in the ranks above them , and they have special talents(ie. force sensitivity)

Also you have a tendency to give the sith too much credit, whom are as quick to destroy light siders within their own rank as Jedi are feareful of Dark siders in their own ranks

Dromund Kaas, your instructed to destroy a light side sith's teachings

 

Edited April 30, 2012 by Saseav

[ragamer]

Good thread but...

 

...Quoting Agent Smith: "It's inevitable"...

 

...Innevitable that the unstable nature of the Sith society destroys them... Without Jedi having to move a finger against them. Sith need an enemy to remain cohesive... So achieving their goals will ultimately be their demise...

 

...That's why they are always on the loosing side... It's just a matter of time that bored Sith turn into Empire Citizens and then, by simple number factors, the Empire will simply try to get rid of the Sith Elite.

 

I think the OP has misunderstood the finer details of the Inquisitor Storyline... Along it you see how weak the Sith relation with the Empire is (You are basically the phsical representation of how much the Sith phylosophy fails them... Their superiority myth is shattered by a random slave, potentially even not "pureblooded")... It's normal, you can't extend your ruling over your vassals if ppl of equal power just seeks to destroy you. The Sith try to believe that wielding ultimate power will make them free from the consequences of their decissions but... They systematically try to hide to the general public the atrocities they commit, most of them just random acts of passion... They are implicitely scared to loose control over the average empire joe.

 

 

I have played my Consular strictly caring about the average Republic Citizen... And that has earned me a good bunch of Dark Side points but overally I have more chances to do "Good things"... Sadly, the Jedi Council code is too strict by the fear the average Jedi has about the Dark Side... My Consular is free from that fear and I have found the actions/reactions of my version of the storyline quite satisfying...

 

...Stricly speaking about moral decissions in the game... The Consular storyline has offered me the hardest moral situation I have been on this kind of games (On Taris) and was not even a "galactic-wide" cataclysmic decission... The Empire equivalents are simply too "caricaturesque" for my taste (Something similar happens with the Jedi Knight "Galactic Superhero" Storyline... Too radical).

Edited April 30, 2012 by ragamer

[Antipodes]

Empire looked more interesting to me, but my friends chose to roll on the Republic side. That being said, I played through the starter planet of the Inquisitor and it didn't appeal to me as much as the Rep stories. As much as the Jedi side can be boring for being too good, the inquisitor story was trying way too hard to be evil. The constant insults, killing off weak students, torture, red and black color scheme, etc. Ugh, I get it already.

 

Best part of the Empire is the accents are damn cool.

Edited May 1, 2012 by Antipodes