Xsorus Posted April 21, 2012 Share Posted April 21, 2012 I solo most of my time now since my guild left this game, However I still don't want separate premade vs pug queue's for a few reasons. Most of the good players are in Premades, Which means if I want to get good, or play better players, I'd have to queue with a group most of the time (which I don't want to do) I don't want to crush pug players 24/7, You only get good at playing games by fighting people who are better then you or equal skill. My other reason for not wanting to separate the queue's is queue times... They did that in rift.. and queue's went up, It also went up a crap for Premades, My guilds premade in rift would have to sit 40-50 mins in a queue for a pop half the time...That is unacceptable... and this game would suffer the same fate. So what ended up happening when they introduced the separate queue as well, a Mass Exodus of PvPers cause no one wanted to sit in a bloody queue for a long time, and they wanted to play with their guildies, so if you can't play with guildies, you generally quit the game, which is what happened. Population ended up dropping like a rock across every server in that game because of a mistake like that. But the puggers were happy right? Nope.. soon after they started requesting separating the ranks as well, which further increased the queue times and made the game worse for even solo players. Basically most people who ***** about premades, Will never be happy unless they win the game, If they're losing, something needs to be changed in their mind.....and it's not them as a player.. nope.. it's everyone else.. you can't make terrible players like that happy.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hankart Posted April 21, 2012 Share Posted April 21, 2012 Ranked WZs is one solution. Add a timer that if a premade group sits in an empty queue for more that 10 mins they have the option to enter a pug queue. Downside is their team may get split up! Not a perfect solution but it wouldn't have people sitting on there hands all day. Another solution is the roster board system where you could show the groups queued up. That way teams could see if theres anybody out there to play. Ranked pugs should be a fairly easy implementation if ran seperately from premades. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kweassa Posted April 21, 2012 Share Posted April 21, 2012 I solo most of my time now since my guild left this game, However I still don't want separate premade vs pug queue's for a few reasons. Most of the good players are in Premades, Which means if I want to get good, or play better players, I'd have to queue with a group most of the time (which I don't want to do) I don't want to crush pug players 24/7, You only get good at playing games by fighting people who are better then you or equal skill. My other reason for not wanting to separate the queue's is queue times... They did that in rift.. and queue's went up, It also went up a crap for Premades, My guilds premade in rift would have to sit 40-50 mins in a queue for a pop half the time...That is unacceptable... and this game would suffer the same fate. So what ended up happening when they introduced the separate queue as well, a Mass Exodus of PvPers cause no one wanted to sit in a bloody queue for a long time, and they wanted to play with their guildies, so if you can't play with guildies, you generally quit the game, which is what happened. Population ended up dropping like a rock across every server in that game because of a mistake like that. But the puggers were happy right? Nope.. soon after they started requesting separating the ranks as well, which further increased the queue times and made the game worse for even solo players. Basically most people who ***** about premades, Will never be happy unless they win the game, If they're losing, something needs to be changed in their mind.....and it's not them as a player.. nope.. it's everyone else.. you can't make terrible players like that happy.. Two sides to everything. You assume casual/mediocre players will complain about everything, which in many cases is true. However, the fact they complain too much neither adds, nor subtracts from the validity of their statement. Some things they complain about has no basis at all, most usually associated with serious L2P issues concerning general combat. About 99% of PvP forum complaints would fall under that category. However, some things are valid and should be treated with concern. The complaints about premades just happens to be one of them, because frankly, individual skill level is basically irrelevant of one's odds against a well formed premade team. The advantages/disadvantages a premade brings into the game is over one's head in many cases, and the odds of a pug winning usually comes out very slim - and this is usually determined even before first contact/combat. Such odds are determined before the actual game itself, and while general complaints concerning combat in PvP can be overcome with personal practice and experience in many cases, the problems of facing premades cannot. For example, my own personal situation: I'm not really a superb player, but long years of PvPing usually carries over some personal experience and traits from one game to other, and hence, my initial response to the 'premade problem' was actually not different from the other skeptics in this thread. If anyone has seen my other posts, they would understand that I dismiss about 99% of any "balance problem" or "Bioware did it wrong" threads, as all of those complaints are strictly a L2P issue. However, since then I've changed my opinion on only one of those complaints, and that happens to be about premades. I considered it a strictly L2P issue as well - because I made the flawed assumption that the conditions are equal for everyone in both factions (which, is not true, as I've learned). My real life conditions and personal preference limits me to a limited amount of game play time, as well as time-zone differences usually put me in lower points of the daily population flux. I know a lot of the better grade players in my server, and yet I rarely have a chance to fight with them, nor am I able to participate and/or function within a regular guild. I'm usually stuck with a group of people that have lower valor rank/experience than even my latest, fresh-lv50 alt in most WZs... and to make matters worse, there is a very competitive (and a rude bunch of *****s as well...) PvP premade group which started to log on in my own timezone. Now, don't tell me that I have to be forced to become a part of a guild/group just to be able to find a winning game every now and then, and not experience 6~7 hours of straight loss, taking nearly 11 hours to even fimish 3-win daily PvP quests, because of a win-loss that is pre-determined even before the game actually begins, due to premades. I understand if I keep on losing to some people, or some person who decides to gank me or something, since that all happens within the game - as these conditions can be rectified by my own efforts to improve in gear, spec, and skill. However, there is nothing that can be done in my own circumstances, and just grabbing and forming a party with random group of players does not make a "premade" - at least along the lines of controversy we are facing right now. People should not be forced into a single option due to circumstances out of the actual combat itself, and frankly, there is nothing that can really refute the fact that a balanced match making is better for both premades and pugs, since the premades can fight someone their own size, while pugs can do the same. IMO, the only group of premades that would object to this, would be the premades that were formed specifically to enjoy the massive lopsided advantage against pugs. The sooner they are rid from the general population, the better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ebado Posted April 21, 2012 Share Posted April 21, 2012 Then why are you complaining about group vs. group queues? How in the world did you get that out of my post? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vonklaun Posted April 21, 2012 Share Posted April 21, 2012 IMO, the only group of premades that would object to this, would be the premades that were formed specifically to enjoy the massive lopsided advantage against pugs. Good post. The real problem with the lopsided situation that can occur, granted- on some servers much more than others- is the feelings of *** futility and burn out experienced by players getting 10+ wz losses in a row. This is the sort of thing that contributes to these players doing much less pvp, and even to game burnout. But frankly, on a low pop server (where this is most likely to happen), doing most anything to increase queue times for some/all seems like a bad thing- am I right? Less well geared and/or new 50s often make up 3/4s of PUG groups on my server, so even good players with maxed out gear and specs can have huge losing streaks and have trouble meeting their dailies. I've personally been pretty lucky lately in terms of PUG teams (+ I'm a top player/scorer) and haven't been stung as bad as some- but a guild mate of mine (full battlemaster atm, good player) said he had a day this week where he played for 8 hours without a single wz win. He had to log off due to having actual life obligations and missed the daily. Oh- and tell me if I am alone on this one- if I am on a team that is just DESTROYING our opponents in a wz- I feel kind of like "this is no fun...". Where is the challenge kicking a dead mule? I want to play a WZ where I kick *** against strong opponents so I feel like I am playing my best. I don't get these teams that just seem to gloat/revel in lopsided stompfest clusterf#@ks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zepidel Posted April 21, 2012 Share Posted April 21, 2012 (edited) I got an infraction in this thread for responding to the troll, apparently he is going to be allowed to take free shots at me so I won't be responding to him. The mods here are as retarded as ever I see. To respond to your post: why are queue times longer for premades? Is it because the vast majority of players solo queue rather than queue in premades? In that case, why should the game cater the the minority at the expense of the majority? If the minority is unwilling to wait and unwilling to form a large enough community for it to be viable to play against each other, they can just solo queue. I wouldn't say vast majority, but I would say that finding 16 people in a premade on any medium pop server would more often than not takes hours. They would have to introduce cross server ques before it became viable, if they did that I would greatly encourage premade v premade. The rewards would also have to be scaled appropriately. I'm just not sure I understand your mentality, your playing an MMORPG emphasis on the second M. Co-ordinated groups get an advantage at pve why should it be any different for pvp? I dont see a bunch of posts in the operations forums about how solo players are entitled to complete nightmare mode content because they're the majority and endgame raiding guilds are the minority. When rated warzones show up, they should be only 8v8 anyway, so if the community can't even support 4 man premades now it sure as hell won't be able to support a full rated warzone. Maybe that's why the rated warzones were scrapped, Bioware looked at the metrics and realized there aren't enough players, and the vast majority of premades exist only to farm PUGs and won't even play rated warzones because they'd have to actually face other premades, and they know they'd just lose all the time. Wait what? So if the vast majority of premades are going to get rolled in rated? who is it that will be doing the rolling? At any rate the way they have said their going to introduce rated warzones wont make a difference to pugs vs premades. Rateds will simply replace normal warzones and everything will be exactly the same as it is now. Why? because everyone regardless of social status will play rateds, why not? Your actual rating is entirely irrelevant and getting 80 rated commendations for a loss is still better than getting 120 normal commendations for a win. A problem only compounded by BM's terrible enhancement itemization. If premades are really formed to do what your saying they do your idea, on most servers, would be nothing more than an inconvenience. All they would do is solo Q at the exact same time. They would almost always get into the same WZ together anyway and if they didn't they could just leave and try again. Edited April 21, 2012 by Zepidel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zepidel Posted April 21, 2012 Share Posted April 21, 2012 (edited) One final thought, pvp in this game requires very little co-ordination. You dont have to time heal debuffs or mitigation debuffs, you almost never have to assist or focus fire, there's very few situations were you have to co-ordinate your groups movements with efficiency beyond that which could be achieved in ops chat. The only WZ were it makes a real difference is huttball, and nobody cares about huttball. Being in vent/TS/whatever together really doesn't give that much of an advantage like it does in other games. Premade's tend to win because those 4 players + 4 pugs are on average better than you plus 7 pugs or because they out-gear you. Edited April 21, 2012 by Zepidel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glacticus Posted April 21, 2012 Share Posted April 21, 2012 Theres a solution. Allow cross server pvp. Then it would be much easier for premades to get placed against premades. Keep the pugs seperated. Why are premades bad when placed against pugs??? Because your placing a well geared, organized and balanced team up against a rag tag half geared group that has little to no organization and likely very little healing just so the premades can feel all bad ***. Thats great if youre in the premade but not fun at all for the pug team. Cross server queuing. Get on it!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vaipyr Posted April 21, 2012 Share Posted April 21, 2012 me, for example.. i don't even consider professional sports a real version of the game... i view premades/non puggers as the elitist/professionals, and as the enemy of the pure game, or true spirit of the game.. i feel like they have ruined countless gaming environments/experiences across a number of games and feel like they hide behind a bunch of lies with their whole "we want challenge" , "we just joke around and don't even try", and on and on. I'm so baffled here that someone could be so..... bad. In general. I mean what a terrible mindset. Why would I want you on my pickup team if you're not playing to win. ***. This attitude is the antithesis to succeeding in life, in any aspect, it's mind blowing. That said, I can't tell if you're serious or laying out a long-winded troll. I mean just wow. Nerf competitive drive huh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts