1.2 Expertise Damage/Mitigation/Healing Scaling Explained

[nToxiK]

Yeah what is the value of expertise over other stats?

 

Say a Deception Assassin in full BM, is it better to go with the +41 Expertise crystal or is it better to go with Power or Crit (if not already soft capped)?

 

What about relics where my options for BM Power relic, Champ Power relic and Matrix cube? Is it better to go BM+Champ for the expertise or BM+Matrix cube for the stats but loss of expertise?

[Khoraji]

 

 

Now we come to 1.2 where the mods/enhan ONLY added expertise, nothing else changed. So part-time PvPer with Rakata, gets +50 expertise per slot by swapping those out AND without losing ANY PvE stats.

 

 

I think I see now. I was not aware that the mod/enh was the same except for expertise. So the best thing to do would be to wear campaign gear with the mods and enhancements from war hero? hmm. got some theorycrafting to do when i get home.

 

EDIT: Also, I am a healer, so I get reduced benefit from mainstat/power. I still think PvP gear is the way to go for me.

Edited April 20, 2012 by Khoraji

[L-RANDLE]

Yeah what is the value of expertise over other stats?

 

Say a Deception Assassin in full BM, is it better to go with the +41 Expertise crystal or is it better to go with Power or Crit (if not already soft capped)?

 

What about relics where my options for BM Power relic, Champ Power relic and Matrix cube? Is it better to go BM+Champ for the expertise or BM+Matrix cube for the stats but loss of expertise?

 

I laugh when I see things like this in my own teammates:

Guardian: 17K @ 20%(mitigation)

Me: 20K 12% (mitigation) + a higher damage base or crit surge.

 

Couple this with the nerf and buff train 1.2 is..... UHH!!! ***? Can we get some transparency here?

[Khoraji]

Yeah what is the value of expertise over other stats?

 

Say a Deception Assassin in full BM, is it better to go with the +41 Expertise crystal or is it better to go with Power or Crit (if not already soft capped)?

 

What about relics where my options for BM Power relic, Champ Power relic and Matrix cube? Is it better to go BM+Champ for the expertise or BM+Matrix cube for the stats but loss of expertise?

 

I don't want to give you the wrong info with your power vs expertise conundrum so I wont comment on that except to say I am using the expertise crystals as a healer.

 

As for the relics. I would say War Hero + BM relic would be the best bet(or bm + champ). There was a thread yesterday or the day before about matrix cube vs pvp relic and someone had said that they had used the test dummy extensively and the PvP relic came out on top in DMG done.

[bklynfinest]

Sentinel/Marauder...

BM set

pre 1.2 to post 1.2

 

Power increase : 186

Crit decrese : 196

Accuracy decrease : 51

Surge increase : 153

Endurance decrease : 36

Strength decrease : 18

 

It is pretty obvious to me that the stats change to Sentinel/Marauder BM set was a MASSIVE upgrade for their DPS on top of their class buff. 186 power? 153 surge? Yeah that's clearly not a buff. (103 surge = 14% crit increase, now think about how much 255 can give you? probably soft capped I'd say)

 

Expertise affect heavily thoses who did not had full BM gear. And even in full BM gear, the damage taken is much higher because of many buffs. This is why master strike/ravage hit for near 40% more. Far higher crit damage and of course more power on top of the 15% damage buff and the change in talent that makes it even more powerful. (18% increased damage from a 3 point talent in the shared tree on top of the 15% base damage buff...)

 

I believe those changes did not make it into 1.2 live i.e. our expertise in BM was buffed as was every other class but the other stats remained the same for the most part. Also, anything after 200 surge suffers massive DRs.

[L-RANDLE]

Yeah what is the value of expertise over other stats?

 

Say a Deception Assassin in full BM, is it better to go with the +41 Expertise crystal or is it better to go with Power or Crit (if not already soft capped)?

 

What about relics where my options for BM Power relic, Champ Power relic and Matrix cube? Is it better to go BM+Champ for the expertise or BM+Matrix cube for the stats but loss of expertise?

 

I laugh when I see things like this in my own teammates:

Guardian: 17K @ 20%(mitigation)

Me: 20K 12% (mitigation) + a higher damage base or crit surge.

 

Couple this with the nerf and buff train 1.2 is..... UHH!!! ***? Can we get some transparency here?

[Dosvidaniya]

Good post.

 

My thoughts.

 

The change in battle time due to expertise disparities will be non-existent when everyone is same/similar gear. I don't know why they reduced endurance from PvP gear pretty much across the board. As for augment slots, most of these have 10-12 endurance each so I don't think augments are part of the TTK problem.

 

Agreed that class changes are the main issue in TTK

 

Alot of classes abilities are not reduced by armor at all. Sorcs force lightning for example is no different when hitting a boss or a clothie. Snipers on the other hand gain a big advantage against cloth wearers. Just part of the rock/paper/scissors deal I think.

 

I can definitely see where PvE gear could surpass PvP gear in burst damage due to crit chance and surge increased. But as for overall throughput, 23% dmg bonus is hard to beat. And PvE gear has more endurance but you are giving up 18% blanket mitigation. I think giving PvP gear a nice endurance buff will make absolutely sure that PvP gear > PvE in pretty much any pvp situation.

 

That bold portion of the post is the largest fabrication ever to grace pvp theorycrafting. It's just not true.

 

Force lightning is, in fact, impacted by armor. It's an energy attack. Every sorc spec in existence will have at least 50% of its damage mitigated by armor. Elemental and Internal damage are the ones that bypass armor. Those largely come from dots (and certain talented abilities).

 

More data on it:

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=350113

 

The majority of pvp stuff is impacted by armor. All of those increase in damage as soon as you start pvping. The end result is that damage really doesn't go down much when you transition from pve ops bosses to players. This holds true even though you actually lose damage by losing damage stats to gain expertise; which nullifies itself.

 

Combine it with the levels of dps, crits, powerups, and resource abuse and it leads to people dying rather quickly. Now, people do need to die fairly quickly. However, it's just a bit too long. 2 seconds is a lot in pvp. 8 seconds is an eternity. They need to look at mitigation / HP and balance it so classes aren't losing 50% of their HP within 1 stun when up against a sole player.

 

Special Note: This doesn't really hold true for operatives/scoundrels. I play a sorc (my operative is level 12) and can tell you that they only get one gimmick; that burst damage. It's offset by the fact that they have terrible sustained damage and can easily be countered with CCs (and have low armor). They need that burst.

 

TLDR: Buff HP on pvp gear; add a few thousand (2k to 3k HP across the board). Slightly buff ops/scoundrel burst to compensate.

Edited April 20, 2012 by Dosvidaniya

[Kil-Gorbane]

The armor mitigates Kinetic and Energy damage, but not Elemental or Internal damage.

--- So when expertise's buff to damage nearly doubles, it doesn't matter how they buffed expertise's mitigation. Most of the PvP'ers use elemental/internal damage either way. All this patch really did was buff damage while leaving mitigation useless. So unless I missed some changes to mitigation, I doubt that because my bully BM gear makes me feel like paper in the new PvP patch, then the new changes to expertise are a HUGE change for PvP.

[Celebrus]

If my calculations are correct, and I believe that they are, what the OP is really saying is that all of this crying about insane DPS and about how tanks and healers simply aren't useful anymore compared to DPS is abunch of whiny BS.

 

Yep. Pretty sure that just about sums it up.

 

Special Note: This doesn't really hold true for operatives/scoundrels. I play a sorc (my operative is level 12) and can tell you that they only get one gimmick; that burst damage. It's offset by the fact that they have terrible sustained damage and can easily be countered with CCs (and have low armor). They need that burst.

 

I'm not going to argue that ops could use a VERY, VERY, VERY SMALL burst buff.

 

But ffs. Since when does being level 12 on a class qualify you to comment on anything about it? You're basically just regurgitating what you've heard whiny Ops complain about on these forums, with absolutely no proof of it for yourself.

Edited April 20, 2012 by Celebrus

[Khoraji]

That bold portion of the post is the largest fabrication ever to grace pvp theorycrafting. It's just not true.

 

Force lightning is, in fact, impacted by armor. It's an energy attack. Every sorc spec in existence will have at least 50% of its damage mitigated by armor. Elemental and Internal damage are the ones that bypass armor. Those largely come from dots (and certain talented abilities).

 

More data on it:

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=350113

oops.. sorry, edited my original post so I am not giving out bad info. Thanks

[Khoraji]

Also, this was brought up in another thread so I figured I would post it here as well. If anyone has an answer to this let me know.

 

 

 

When are the "PvE" mitigation stats calculated compared to when Expertise mitigation is calculated or are they added together?

 

 

If PvE mitigation is calculated before expertise mitigation then an example would look like this:

ATTACKER does 2000 dmg to DEFENDER

Add in +22% bonus dmg

ATTACKER does 2440 dmg to DEFENDER

Add in PvE mitigation (too many variables for an exact number here but lets say 10% for a general idea)

ATTACKER does 2186 dmg to DEFENDER

And finally add in expertise Mitigation at 18%

ATTACKER does 1793 dmg to DEFENDER

207 DMG Mitigated in the end

 

If Mitigation from expertise is calculated first:

ATTACKER does 2000 dmg to DEFENDER

Add in +22% bonus dmg

ATTACKER does 2440 dmg to DEFENDER

18% mitigation from expertise

ATTACKER does 2000 dmg to DEFENDER

And finally 10% mitigation from "PvE" stats

ATTACKER does 1800 dmg to DEFENDER

200 DMG mitigated in the end

 

If the two types of mitigation are added together before calculations:

ATTACKER does 2000 dmg to DEFENDER

Add in 22% dmg bonus

ATTACKER does 2440 dmg to DEFENDER

28% mitigation from all defensive stats

ATTACKER does 1757 dmg to DEFENDER

243 dmg mitigated in the end.

 

Anyone know?

[Endlight]

So I'm looking at my commando right now. 651 expertise. According to the mouse over tool tip this means:

 

14.01 % bonus damage in PvP

12.29% Damage reduction in PvP

7.65% bonus healing in PvP

 

In addition to trauma from PvP combat there's no way healing will ever match DPS.

Edited April 20, 2012 by Wekeltes

[FuulishOne]

So I'm looking at my commando right now. 651 expertise. According to the mouse over tool tip this means:

 

14.01 % bonus damage in PvP

12.29% Damage reduction in PvP

7.65% bonus healing in PvP

 

In addition to trauma from PvP combat there's no way healing will ever match DPS.

 

I believe the OP was talking about max/capped expertise levels. Your percentages clearly show they are not at max, but it does introduce something. Perhaps there's an issue with the DR curve that's in play. Has anyone had a chance to map that?

Edited April 20, 2012 by Wekeltes

[L-RANDLE]

I believe the OP was talking about max/capped expertise levels. Your percentages clearly show they are not at max, but it does introduce something. Perhaps there's an issue with the DR curve that's in play. Has anyone had a chance to map that?

 

BW needs to answer: DOES EXPERTISE AFFECT A PLAYERS DAMAGE BOOST STAT ALONE OR DOES IT AFFECT THE ATTACK BASED ON THE TOOLTIP READING?

 

 

Simple answer would help clarify what expertise actually does, but the almost refuse to answer it...WHY?

[Rouncer]

Sentinel/Marauder...

BM set

pre 1.2 to post 1.2

 

Power increase : 186

Crit decrese : 196

Accuracy decrease : 51

Surge increase : 153

Endurance decrease : 36

Strength decrease : 18

 

It is pretty obvious to me that the stats change to Sentinel/Marauder BM set was a MASSIVE upgrade for their DPS on top of their class buff. 186 power? 153 surge? Yeah that's clearly not a buff. (103 surge = 14% crit increase, now think about how much 255 can give you? probably soft capped I'd say)

 

Expertise affect heavily thoses who did not had full BM gear. And even in full BM gear, the damage taken is much higher because of many buffs. This is why master strike/ravage hit for near 40% more. Far higher crit damage and of course more power on top of the 15% damage buff and the change in talent that makes it even more powerful. (18% increased damage from a 3 point talent in the shared tree on top of the 15% base damage buff...)

 

Except of course that they reverted those changes prior to 1.2's release so that the Marauder's BM set ended up with almost exactly the same stat allocation as it had prior to 1.2 just with a lot more expertise. No additional surge, same exact amount of crit rating, and no loss of accuracy from gear.

[Rouncer]

So I'm looking at my commando right now. 651 expertise. According to the mouse over tool tip this means:

 

14.01 % bonus damage in PvP

12.29% Damage reduction in PvP

7.65% bonus healing in PvP

 

In addition to trauma from PvP combat there's no way healing will ever match DPS.

 

Except that when two people are fighting each other and both have the same amount of expertise the damage increase and the damage reduction is nullified meaning the healing boost is the only part that actually increases in value as all the participants gear up with increasing amounts of expertise.

 

As expertise values increase among all participants, games will be forced to become more strategic as healers will output more healing yet the incoming and outgoing damage will remain constant.

Edited April 20, 2012 by Wekeltes

[L-RANDLE]

So I'm looking at my commando right now. 651 expertise. According to the mouse over tool tip this means:

 

14.01 % bonus damage in PvP

12.29% Damage reduction in PvP

7.65% bonus healing in PvP

 

In addition to trauma from PvP combat there's no way healing will ever match DPS.

 

So from a healing aspect your are getting .012% increase per EXP point.

 

 

Let's go back to my example when I said the armor slot is fudged up:

BM: +31END, +33WP, +50 EXP(~.6% healing increase)

RAK: +55END, +51WP

 

We still lose 240HP.....

Now healing rating (My toon's 500 Base Healing Bonus. I have a BM chest piece and a Rakata Chest piece. Which on do I put on if I want to heal):

BM: 500*1.006= 503.00

RAK: 500+3.06(+18WP)= 503.06

Your output is a virtual dead-heat, but once again you nerfed your END by 240HP per piece. This is a BIG reason why healers can't keep up in PvP. I would not use PvP gear at all if I wanted to be an effective healer in 1.2.....

 

Now the above example is with my theory that Expertise only affect heal/damage boost(who know how reduction is increase, but I would guess its based on your defense rating) isLets even look at it from a best case scenario: My deliverance as a DPS sage is around 3K on the tooltip, which is made up of base attack rating plus healing bonus.

 

BM: 3000*1.006= 3018

RAK:3000+3.06= 3003.06

Not even a 15HP difference to lose 240HP. Plus WZ medpaks are percentage based on a toons max HP...LULZ @ EXPERTISE.

Edited April 20, 2012 by Wekeltes

[Dartagon]

So from a healing aspect your are getting .012% increase per EXP point.

 

 

Let's go back to my example when I said the armor slot is fudged up:

BM: +31END, +33WP, +50 EXP(~.6% healing increase)

RAK: +55END, +51WP

 

We still lose 240HP.....

Now healing rating (My toon's 500 Base Healing Bonus. I have a BM chest piece and a Rakata Chest piece. Which on do I put on if I want to heal):

BM: 500*1.006= 503.00

RAK: 500+3.06(+18WP)= 503.06

Your output is a virtual dead-heat, but once again you nerfed your END by 240HP per piece. This is a BIG reason why healers can't keep up in PvP. I would not use PvP gear at all if I wanted to be an effective healer in 1.2.....

 

Now the above example is with my theory that Expertise only affect heal/damage boost(who know how reduction is increase, but I would guess its based on your defense rating) isLets even look at it from a best case scenario: My deliverance as a DPS sage is around 3K on the tooltip, which is made up of base attack rating plus healing bonus.

 

BM: 3000*1.006= 3018

RAK:3000+3.06= 3003.06

Not even a 15HP difference to lose 240HP. Plus WZ medpaks are percentage based on a toons max HP...LULZ @ EXPERTISE.

 

You forgot to calculate in the damage reduction that you gain w/ the expertise. Good luck dropping those healing bombs when you are dead.

 

Expertise is the end all be all stat for PVP. STack it and win.

[Khoraji]

So I'm looking at my commando right now. 651 expertise. According to the mouse over tool tip this means:

 

14.01 % bonus damage in PvP

12.29% Damage reduction in PvP

7.65% bonus healing in PvP

 

In addition to trauma from PvP combat there's no way healing will ever match DPS.

 

Translation, OP is a moron pulling numbers out of his *** without being intelligent enough to check them.

And people wonder why threads like these are necessary...

 

I didnt pull them out of my ***. I said multiple times that the percentages I am using come from full BM gear. So not only did you skip elementary math, apparently you skipped reading comprehension as well.

 

Lets use your numbers then:

ATTACKER does 2000 dmg to DEFENDER

Calculate 14.01% bonus dmg (280.2)

ATTACKER does 2280.2 to DEFENDER

Calculate 12.29% Mitigation (280.2)

ATTACKER does 2000 dmg to DEFENDER

So, as you can see. Bonus DMG and Mitigation cancel each other out completely between evenly geared players no matter what your expertise is at

 

As for your stupid trauma argument. Trauma is there because healers in PvE need to be able to heal through Boss DMG which is much higher than anything in PvP. Trauma is not there to balance DPS/Healing in PvP. And besides, trauma has been here since launch, we are talking about the changes from 1.1.5 to 1.2.

Edited April 20, 2012 by Khoraji

[ajdafatcow]

First off: Thanks to the OP, nice to see a reasoned, numbers based conversation about the changes.

I did have a question, and I apologize if it's been answered and I missed it.

I don't have any level 50's. Most of my pvping has actually been on a level 20ish character. Without access to all this endgame gear, such as the BM set...where does that leave me? Pre 1.2 I could pvp at level 20, and while I was still at a disadvantage I could compensate with skill and still contribute to the game. Now I just seem to go down too fast. Granted, that's a highly unscientific observation, and I'll never deny the possibility that I just suck. Do the changes to the gear basically mean that PvP is now just a game for 50's?

[Khoraji]

First off: Thanks to the OP, nice to see a reasoned, numbers based conversation about the changes.

I did have a question, and I apologize if it's been answered and I missed it.

I don't have any level 50's. Most of my pvping has actually been on a level 20ish character. Without access to all this endgame gear, such as the BM set...where does that leave me? Pre 1.2 I could pvp at level 20, and while I was still at a disadvantage I could compensate with skill and still contribute to the game. Now I just seem to go down too fast. Granted, that's a highly unscientific observation, and I'll never deny the possibility that I just suck. Do the changes to the gear basically mean that PvP is now just a game for 50's?

 

Expertise changes have almost no effect on the 10-49 bracket so do not worry about expertise until you are almost 50(there are some low level expertise mods on lvl 46 weapons but not a big deal).

 

What you are experience is the class changes. Burst has been increased for a few classes, and you are also probably playing against alot of Mara/Powertechs which are slightly OP at the moment so everyone and their brother is making one.

[Khoraji]

 

In addition to trauma from PvP combat there's no way healing will ever match DPS.

 

 

Trauma was here pre 1.2, are you saying you couldn't heal through 1 DPS even back then? If so you are proving you dont know *** you are doing. Even after 1.2 your healing numbers should be above or close to the top dmg dealer.

[ekaikaforge]

edit: apologies, just a little defensive today.

 

Naw, you're pretty much like this everyday

[Khoraji]

Naw, you're pretty much like this everyday

 

until i get home, have a drink and smoke and edit my posts haha

[Endlight]

So from a healing aspect your are getting .012% increase per EXP point.

 

 

Let's go back to my example when I said the armor slot is fudged up:

BM: +31END, +33WP, +50 EXP(~.6% healing increase)

RAK: +55END, +51WP

 

We still lose 240HP.....

Now healing rating (My toon's 500 Base Healing Bonus. I have a BM chest piece and a Rakata Chest piece. Which on do I put on if I want to heal):

BM: 500*1.006= 503.00

RAK: 500+3.06(+18WP)= 503.06

Your output is a virtual dead-heat, but once again you nerfed your END by 240HP per piece. This is a BIG reason why healers can't keep up in PvP. I would not use PvP gear at all if I wanted to be an effective healer in 1.2.....

 

Now the above example is with my theory that Expertise only affect heal/damage boost(who know how reduction is increase, but I would guess its based on your defense rating) isLets even look at it from a best case scenario: My deliverance as a DPS sage is around 3K on the tooltip, which is made up of base attack rating plus healing bonus.

 

BM: 3000*1.006= 3018

RAK:3000+3.06= 3003.06

Not even a 15HP difference to lose 240HP. Plus WZ medpaks are percentage based on a toons max HP...LULZ @ EXPERTISE.

 

All I know is that it used to be I could survive at a node long enough for reinforcements to arrive. I couldn't kill anyone solo but I could last. Now I'm lucky to survive the first stun, often by the time the second lands I'm dead before I can hit my CC break. I know that no matter what I do I can't seem to prolong any ones life in combat for more than a few seconds. I know that I don't get focused as much as I used to now that players are learning that it's quicker to just out burst my healing. I know that one on one that even healing full out I can't stop my death,or delay it much. Trying to DPS leaves my opponent with well over 1/2 their health bar intact. I feel like a free kill in open world PvP and a lead weight around my team's neck in WZs.

 

I feel like I wasted several months leveling and gearing a healer for PvP and I should just respecc grav-round spam. I've already done that, even in full combat medic gear I feel more effective than I did as a healer.